Christian Morality

[dinonum]

Should Christian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Christians?

Why or why not?

 

[epr7142]

Interesting Debate. I can't wait to see this thread explode.

I'll take the position of no. I think if christianity were the law instead of obligatory we would never know what it feels like to be truly saved. We would all lead less sinful lives and many people would become complacent with the "religion" that we enacted.

We need to more clearly define christian morality though, before this get's too deep. Do you mean simply christian ethics, 10 commandments, the old testament law? etc.

 

[Jase]

Should Christian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Christians?

Why or why not?

Nope. Too many people disagree with what exactly "Christian Morality" would be defined as, and lots of people do not accept Christianity and therefore should not be bound by its morals.

 

[dinonum]

There are worldly morals that are cultural. Our culture tells us that murder is wrong as an example. The most obvious "controversial" topic would be homosexuality. It doesn't have to be controversial topics though, the real issue is whether Christian's should be saying:

"My Bible/religious beliefs as a saved being deem [insert idea or action here] as immoral, therefore it should be illegal for the even the unsaved."

 

[Ukrainia]

Should Christian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Christians?

Why or why not?

In most circumstances no.

The importance in being a Christian is knowing Christ as Savior.

I think at least in the US the people defined as the religious right had equated being able to legislate morality into helping people know Christ as their Savior.

But this doesn't work. Usually if someone is forced to do something against their will, they start to hate the people who are doing the forcing.

I would qualify that by saying abortion is something different as I believe a unborn child is just as valuable to God as anyone else and taking away that life is a thing that needs to be stopped.

 

[kharisym]

Should Christian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Christians?

Why or why not?

No, if only for the fact that we as a people should treat others as we wish to be treated. If you aren't okay with living under sharia law, then you shouldn't expect Muslims to live under Christian law.

 

[Ukrainia]

Also, most Christians believe that "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" stem from faith in Christ. To try to replicate that through a legislative procedure would entirely miss the point.

 

[Ukrainia]

The case for legislating Christian morality, if I can play devil's advocate, would be something along the lines of this. If you make someone do something for long enough they'll eventually self identify by it. If you made someone go to church often enough, all you ever heard were argument for Christianity on tv, radio and internet, and everything about the culture was explicitly Christian, you might very well come to Christianity. But to enforce such a thing basically entails something approaching totalitarianism, which is an anti-Christian idea.

So something approaching a historical example might be the conquering of the New World (of which I am no expert). It seems to me Europeans came to the Americas, they popularized their ideas by force, the natives assimilated, and over time many became Christians (this is all generalized - of course their were missionaries who truly loved the natives and wanted them to come to Christ out of love). Sure many might have, over time, become Christians, but to do so required brutality was non-Christian and evil. I believe God can work through evil people, so I'm not saying all the results of the brutal conquering were negative. What I am saying is that advocating such an idea is explicitely not Christian.

The only valid way to become a Christian society - in my opinion that would be a great thing - is for Christians to be such a force for good in the world that others follow. We're a long way from that.

 

[Zebra1552]

Should Christian morality be legislated (and thus forced) upon non-Christians?

Why or why not?

No. Jesus gave us a choice to follow Him or not, and gave us the consequences. We have freedom to choose to follow Him or not, we are not forced to live for Him even eve we do choose to. There is no mystical force that requires us to adhere to God's laws. Thereby Christians should not be attempting to force those who do not wish to follow their ways or listen to them to do so. As it is said, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." Christianity does nothing for itself when it forces morality on people. No matter what issue it is.

 

[Zebra1552]

The case for legislating Christian morality, if I can play devil's advocate, would be something along the lines of this. If you make someone do something for long enough they'll eventually self identify by it. If you made someone go to church often enough, all you ever heard were argument for Christianity on tv, radio and internet, and everything about the culture was explicitly Christian, you might very well come to Christianity. But to enforce such a thing basically entails something approaching totalitarianism, which is an anti-Christian idea.

So something approaching a historical example might be the conquering of the New World (of which I am no expert). It seems to me Europeans came to the Americas, they popularized their ideas by force, the natives assimilated, and over time many became Christians (this is all generalized - of course their were missionaries who truly loved the natives and wanted them to come to Christ out of love). Sure many might have, over time, become Christians, but to do so required brutality was non-Christian and evil. I believe God can work through evil people, so I'm not saying all the results of the brutal conquering were negative. What I am saying is that advocating such an idea is explicitely not Christian.

The only valid way to become a Christian society - in my opinion that would be a great thing - is for Christians to be such a force for good in the world that others follow. We're a long way from that.

Then explain why the sons and daughters of pastors and missionaries are statistically more often than not the ones who fall away from the faith. If mere expectation brings people to faith, then the sons and daughters of these people should be the strongest Christians among us.

 

[Zebra1552]

In most circumstances no.

The importance in being a Christian is knowing Christ as Savior.

I think at least in the US the people defined as the religious right had equated being able to legislate morality into helping people know Christ as their Savior.

But this doesn't work. Usually if someone is forced to do something against their will, they start to hate the people who are doing the forcing.

I would qualify that by saying abortion is something different as I believe a unborn child is just as valuable to God as anyone else and taking away that life is a thing that needs to be stopped.

Yeah, but what if the unborn child would be a cereal killer if they weren't aborted? Most kids in the US consume cereal, so think of all the digested artificial ingredients that are being consumed by well to do kids rather than the poor people in China that are already hungry? And what about the unborn child that becomes the antiChrist, or a rapist or a murderer?

 

[Ukrainia]

Then explain why the sons and daughters of pastors and missionaries are statistically more often than not the ones who fall away from the faith. If mere expectation brings people to faith, then the sons and daughters of these people should be the strongest Christians among us.

Well first I'd love to see the statistics for that, because that hasn't been true in my experience.

Expectations don't bring people to faith, God grants the gift of faith to people. But he can do this in different ways. Generally, if a society and a culture is heavily Christian, the next generation will be too. They'll be more familiar with what Christian belief is, they'll hear the strongest arguments for Christianity. And most importantly they'll probably be baptized, hear God's Word and take communion. God uses people to make himself known. Where you don't have this - for instance, in a Muslim country - you're not going to have many Christians.

 

[Zebra1552]

Well first I'd love to see the statistics for that, because that hasn't been true in my experience.

Expectations don't bring people to faith, God grants the gift of faith to people.

You were playing devil's advocate, right?

Anyway, if God grants faith to people, then He chooses who goes to heaven and who does not. I'd love to see where your backing is for the gift of faith comment.

But he can do this in different ways. Generally, if a society and a culture is heavily Christian, the next generation will be too. They'll be more familiar with what Christian belief is, they'll hear the strongest arguments for Christianity. And most importantly they'll probably be baptized, hear God's Word and take communion. God uses people to make himself known. Where you don't have this - for instance, in a Muslim country - you're not going to have many Christians.

Being baptized, hearing God's word, and taking communion does not make someone a Christian. Nor does believing what a Christian believes. As Christ said in Matthew 25 and John 15, the ones who bear fruit and live out their faith are Christians. Just like in Taekwondo, I can tell someone how to do martial arts, and they may eventually gain the knowledge to be a martial artist, but until they put forth the effort, they are not a martial artist. One cannot be a Christian without living out their faith.

 

[Ukrainia]

Yeah, but what if the unborn child would be a cereal killer if they weren't aborted? Most kids in the US consume cereal, so think of all the digested artificial ingredients that are being consumed by well to do kids rather than the poor people in China that are already hungry? And what about the unborn child that becomes the antiChrist, or a rapist or a murderer?

Well, we need Wheaties and Chex Mix staying alive to make its way into my stomach. Obviously then cereal killers are quite aweful. Serial killers too are bad news .

But honestly I don't think the argument that aborting someone to prevent him from experiencing something aweful really works. We wouldn't claim killing someone from preventing him from experiencing something bad, or from becoming someone evil is valid either. Or if you want to explain why it would be valid, let me know.

 

[KCKID]

The natural consequences of 'forced' anything is rebellion by at least some people. I believe that a great many people rebel against the notion of God simply because of the popular concept that such a God would 'force' people to believe and worship Him or otherwise suffer the consequences of 'eternal torment' in hell ...and, I can't say that I blame them.

 

[Ukrainia]

You were playing devil's advocate, right?

Anyway, if God grants faith to people, then He chooses who goes to heaven and who does not. I'd love to see where your backing is for the gift of faith comment.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Being baptized, hearing God's word, and taking communion does not make someone a Christian. Nor does believing what a Christian believes. As Christ said in Matthew 25 and John 15, the ones who bear fruit and live out their faith are Christians. Just like in Taekwondo, I can tell someone how to do martial arts, and they may eventually gain the knowledge to be a martial artist, but until they put forth the effort, they are not a martial artist. One cannot be a Christian without living out their faith.

Okay, I don't necessarily disagree with this. But God grants faith, and through that faith a Christian is able to bear fruit. It's not the other way around. I'm not saying being baptized, hearing God's Word or taking communion makes one Christian, but those are opportunities for God to grant of faith to someone - someone can reject it if they choose. If they never hear the Gospel, or know anything about Christ they won't become a Christian.

 

[Zebra1552]

Well, we need Wheaties and Chex Mix staying alive to make its way into my stomach. Obviously then cereal killers are quite aweful. Serial killers too are bad news .

Hehe. I'm rather punny today.

But honestly I don't think the argument that aborting someone to prevent him from experiencing something aweful really works. We wouldn't claim killing someone from preventing him from experiencing something bad, or from becoming someone evil is valid either. Or if you want to explain why it would be valid, let me know.

Psh. I was playing devil's advocate. Poorly on purpose.

 

[Zebra1552]

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

That is not talking about works of God, but works that are aimed at getting one into heaven, which was very common in Jesus' day (and still is).

Okay, I don't necessarily disagree with this. But God grants faith, and through that faith a Christian is able to bear fruit. It's not the other way around. I'm not saying being baptized, hearing God's Word or taking communion makes one Christian, but those are opportunities for God to give the grant of faith to someone - someone can reject it if they choose. If they never hear the Gospel, or know anything about Christ they won't become a Christian.

Show me that God grants faith. Prove it. Where is that in the Bible? And how do you get around the inevitable conclusion to that statement- that God chooses who goes to heaven/hell?

 

[Ukrainia]

That is not talking about works of God, but works that are aimed at getting one into heaven, which was very common in Jesus' day (and still is).



Show me that God grants faith. Prove it. Where is that in the Bible? And how do you get around the inevitable conclusion to that statement- that God chooses who goes to heaven/hell?

I'm a little confused to how you're interpreting the Ephesians verse and what your belief is. Not to mention we're pretty far off the topic.

I'm still attempting to figure out exactly what my belief on free will is, so I'll take a pass on your last question for a moment.

I will say my hope rests on Christ's life, his death on the cross and his resurrection so that sin death and the devil are once and for all defeated, even if they still have some sway here on earth, the final victory has already been won.

 

[Zebra1552]

I'm a little confused to how you're interpreting the Ephesians verse and what your belief is. Not to mention we're pretty far off the topic.

I'm still attempting to figure out exactly what my belief on free will is, so I'll take a pass on your last question for a moment.

I will say my hope rests on Christ's life, his death on the cross and his resurrection so that sin death and the devil are once and for all defeated, even if they still have some sway here on earth, the final victory has already been won.

It's not terribly off topic. If faith is a gift, then legislating Christian morality is useless. If faith is something we decide and something we live out, then legislating Christian morality is useless but an argument can be made that legislating Christian morality in that case is essential.
The conclusion to the original question in this thread is dictated by what one believes Christianity is. Why the conclusion is reached is just as if not more important than the conclusion itself.