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Christian Exploration

LawrenceHart

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Hi all, I'd like to start by saying that I'd have to classify as myself as an agnostic (in that I believe that God could exist however I'm only really beginning my spiritual exploration).

I struggle a bit with certain concepts of Christianity that act as a hurdle requirement for myself. There are questions that I haven't found evidence for that prevent myself from progressing further. Although I do love the genuine core values of Christianity, in terms of honesty, kindness & self-discipline.

One of my major cruxes is the idea that God isn't capable of lying, in my own perspective (if true) this would lessen divinity, in the way that I'd much rather a God that is capable of both good and evil that chooses to be good then one that can't be evil in the first place. Also I don't know if I can believe that someone/entity can be constantly pure and good, if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him? Also if we view sin as a terminal condition that we all incur with differing levels - where did God base this off of? Wouldn't it be intrinsically from himself? This doesn't bother me, because if this was the case it'd make God a much more believable concept to myself if this makes sense.

Also, who create the creator? I can never wrap my head around the idea that an entity was always there. Wouldn't there need to be an origin for God?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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I can never wrap my head around the idea that an entity was always there. Wouldn't there need to be an origin for God?
How about a wider, more open concept of God as the fundamental consciousness of reality itself? Always was, always will be. Simply the very nature of being, existence, what is.
 
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LawrenceHart

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So similar to the "mother earth", I can see how this works I think. Such as when I first started reading the bible I was convinced that heaven was a metaphor for the sky, and thus dying and eternal life was just an analogy for returning into the place that was creation. Is that what you mean or have I widely misinterpreted?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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So similar to the "mother earth", I can see how this works I think. Such as when I first started reading the bible I was convinced that heaven was a metaphor for the sky, and thus dying and eternal life was just an analogy for returning into the place that was creation. Is that what you mean or have I widely misinterpreted?
I'm not sure. "heaven" and "sky" may be metaphors for something unimaginable and infinite...yet also conscious. Dying and eternal life, a letting go of our bodily limitations.
 
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eleos1954

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Hi all, I'd like to start by saying that I'd have to classify as myself as an agnostic (in that I believe that God could exist however I'm only really beginning my spiritual exploration).

I struggle a bit with certain concepts of Christianity that act as a hurdle requirement for myself. There are questions that I haven't found evidence for that prevent myself from progressing further. Although I do love the genuine core values of Christianity, in terms of honesty, kindness & self-discipline.

One of my major cruxes is the idea that God isn't capable of lying, in my own perspective (if true) this would lessen divinity, in the way that I'd much rather a God that is capable of both good and evil that chooses to be good then one that can't be evil in the first place. Also I don't know if I can believe that someone/entity can be constantly pure and good, if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him? Also if we view sin as a terminal condition that we all incur with differing levels - where did God base this off of? Wouldn't it be intrinsically from himself? This doesn't bother me, because if this was the case it'd make God a much more believable concept to myself if this makes sense.

Also, who create the creator? I can never wrap my head around the idea that an entity was always there. Wouldn't there need to be an origin for God?

Hello, happy to hear you are open to learning about our wonderful creator. It takes a while to understand .... He will gives more light as one pursues more about Him.

if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him?

no ... one needs to understand sin and the fall of mankind.

We were indeed originally created in His perfect image .... but an enemy showed up and marred that image.

God has always been ... yes is difficult to wrap one's mind around.

in the way that I'd much rather a God that is capable of both good and evil that chooses to be good then one that can't be evil in the first place.

well no .... then you couldn't trust God and would make him out to be come kind of a Skitsofrantic or an egomaniac or who knows what

God being created ... then who created the creator? and then who created that creator and then who created that creator and so on .... do you see the problem?

God is love ... love is His nature .... not just something He does (being loving) Love is what He is.

He created man as a free agent .... to choose to love or not to love .... love can not be forced ... it requires choice.

May the Lord bless you as you study and learn more about Him. Amen.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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...if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him?
Great question. Created in God's image we share in his consciousness, but not perfectly. We grow into that perfection. Until then we stray.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi all, I'd like to start by saying that I'd have to classify as myself as an agnostic (in that I believe that God could exist however I'm only really beginning my spiritual exploration).

I struggle a bit with certain concepts of Christianity that act as a hurdle requirement for myself. There are questions that I haven't found evidence for that prevent myself from progressing further. Although I do love the genuine core values of Christianity, in terms of honesty, kindness & self-discipline.

One of my major cruxes is the idea that God isn't capable of lying, in my own perspective (if true) this would lessen divinity, in the way that I'd much rather a God that is capable of both good and evil that chooses to be good then one that can't be evil in the first place

Well the only "tempting" thing about doing wrong/evil is that you don't see the full damage it does. Placing your hand on a hot stove is wrong - but it is "not very tempting" because it is very easy to see the downside.

For God who is infinite in knowledge and beyond time there is no such thing as a consequence for a bad decision that He is not fully aware of. All wrong or defective action has its full poor consequence, bad outcome (in both short term and long term contexts) seen immediately by an all knowing God.

Nor is God "driven by chemistry/hormones" to do evil.

And it is because of that -

Titus 1:
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Very few people "desire" to be run over by a train. What people desire is something that looks enjoyable where the perceived consequence is not so great that it overcomes the anticipated joy of doing whatever it is.

Also I don't know if I can believe that someone/entity can be constantly pure and good

The world you live in is corrupt (obviously) and so are you as a sinner, and we all are sinners. So no wonder the idea of a sinless being is hard to imagine. It is like asking a fish to imagine beings that live in the desert or in trees.

, if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him?

Your struggling with just how to imagine being infinite God and then imagine creating a sinless being.
with free will - yet not "making them defective" in the event that they ever made a bad choice.

Humans know how to "program something" but we don't know the science of how to "make free will".

Also, who create the creator? I can never wrap my head around the idea

You keep pointing out the "gap" between the "finite" human and the 'infinite God" as IF - there was some kind of logic that proved that if the finite human cannot fully comprehend infinite God - then that proves infinite God does not exist.

Infinite God has no beginning and no end - by definition. A pretty tall thing to 'imagine' for finite beings... by definition.

Wouldn't there need to be an origin for God?

Only if you define infinite God "as finite since I am a finite being and cannot fully fathom an infinite being" which would be a form of circular reasoning.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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...if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him?
Great question. Created in God's image we share in his consciousness, but not perfectly. We grow into that perfection. Until then we stray.
 
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trophy33

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One of my major cruxes is the idea that God isn't capable of lying, in my own perspective (if true) this would lessen divinity, in the way that I'd much rather a God that is capable of both good and evil that chooses to be good then one that can't be evil in the first place.
God is capable of moral evil technically, but not morally. He always chooses what is right, because its the best thing to choose. And God does only what is best, always.
Also I don't know if I can believe that someone/entity can be constantly pure and good, if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him?
No, our shortcomings have come from the exact opposite - that we are not God. Our limitation (for example in knowledge or reactions) produces mistakes and evils.

The good in us is from Him, the bad in us is from our own necessary limitations (if we had no limits, we would be God).
Also if we view sin as a terminal condition that we all incur with differing levels - where did God base this off of? Wouldn't it be intrinsically from himself?
I do not understand what you mean.
Also, who create the creator? I can never wrap my head around the idea that an entity was always there. Wouldn't there need to be an origin for God?
Nobody. Our limited brains are developed to fight, run, hunt, solve our practical problems. They are not made to understand infinity.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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When you think about it we are part earth and part heaven, part soil and part spirit, part mud and part air. Jesus feely took on these limitations to show us the way up through them. It isn't easy.
 
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mmarco

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One of my major cruxes is the idea that God isn't capable of lying, in my own perspective (if true) this would lessen divinity, in the way that I'd much rather a God that is capable of both good and evil that chooses to be good then one that can't be evil in the first place.

I can never kill my children because I love them; this does not represent a limitation of my power. God is the supreme good and He is the source of all good, all love and all goodness. Therefore He will never do evil, and this is the meaning of the expression "God cannot lie".

Also I don't know if I can believe that someone/entity can be constantly pure and good, if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him?

No, God created us with a free will, and free will implies the possibility of rejecting God's will, and this is sin.
You must understand that if God had created a universe in which all living creatures were not inclined to sin (such as angels), we would not exist. God , in His infinite love, has chosen to created also creatures like us, who are inclined to sin with the purpose to save us from our sins and lead us to the eternal and holy life.
In other words, my answer to the question: "Could God have created me as a better person?" is: God has created better people than me, but those people are not me and God, in His infinite love, has chosen to create also me. However, this is not the end of the story; in fact, God can change us and make us better people. In fact God only is the source of all true good and true love. We are unable to pursue the true good only with our own strengths; we need God, His grace, His teachings, His spiritual help. We need to be saved fom ourselves, our egoism and our sinful passions.
Only God can change us and make us better people.

Also, who create the creator? I can never wrap my head around the idea that an entity was always there. Wouldn't there need to be an origin for God?

if God had an origin, then the true God would be the cause of such origin. Buth then you would ask; what is the origin of the origin of God? and so on in an infinite sequence of origins. The point is that God is eternal and He is the Creator of everything.

The existence and the Goodness of God are the most fundamental truth and I do not think that this truth can be deduced through any form of reasoning, because this would mean believing more in such reasoning than in God. The fundamental reason why I believe in God is that I experience His Presence in my life. However, I believe that there are solid rational arguments that show that the belief in the existence of a conscious and intelligent God is absolutely reasonable, i.e. that this belief has a rational foundation. In particular, being a physicist,I would like to give you two rational and scientific arguments supporting the existence of God. The first argument proves that consciousness is not generated by the brain and that the origin of our mental experiences is not physical. This implies the existence in us of an unphysical element, which is usually called soul or spirit; God can be defined as the cause of the existence of our soul.

Physicalism/naturalism is based on the belief that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain, but it can be proved that this hypothesis is inconsistent with our scientific knowledge and implies logical contradictions. There are in fact 2 arguments that prove such hypothesis contains a logical fallacy.

1) All the alleged emergent properties are just simplified and approximate descriptions of underlying processes and arbitrary abstractions of the actual physical processes. In fact, the underlying microscopic processes are described by the fundamental laws of physics and no emergent properties are involved in such description; this implies that all the alleged emergent properties are only arbitrary and approximate descriptions of the actual physical processes (arbitrariness is involved when more than one options is possible; in this case, more than one possible descriptions). An approximate description is only an abstraction, and no actual entity exists per se corresponding to that approximate description, simply because an actual entity is exactly what it is and not an approximation of itself; an approximate description is an idea that exists only in a conscious mind. This means that emergent properties are concepts that refer to something that has an inherent conceptual nature (abstract ideas).

2) An emergent property is defined as a property that is possessed by a set of elements that its individual components do not possess. The point is that every set of elements is inherently an arbitrary abstraction which implies the arbitrary choice of determining which elements are to be included in the set. Therefore, any property attributed to the set as a whole is inherently arbitrary because it depends on the arbitrary choice used to define the set. Arbitrariness is a precondition for the existence of any emergent property, and consciousness is a precondition for the existence of arbitrariness.

Both arguments 1 and 2 are sufficient to prove that every emergent property requires a consciousness from which to be conceived. Therefore, that conceiving consciousness cannot be the emergent property itself. Conclusion: consciousness cannot be an emergent property; this is true for the neuron, the brain and any other system that can be broken down into smaller elements.



In other words, emergence is a purely conceptual idea that is applied onto matter for taxonomy purposes. On a fundamental material level, there is no brain, or heart, or any higher level groups or sets, but just fundamental particles interacting. Emergence itself is just a category imposed by a mind, so the mind can't itself be explained as an emergent phenomenon.



If a concept refers to “something” whose existence presupposes the existence of arbitrariness, such “something” cannot exist independently of a conscious mind and can only exist as an idea in a conscious mind. For example consider the property of "beauty": beauty is intrisically subjective, abstract and implies arbitrariness; therefore, beauty cannot exist independently of a conscious mind. My arguments prove that emergent properties, as well as complexity, are of the same nature as beauty; they refer to something that is intrinsically subjective and arbitrary, which is sufficient to prove that consciousness cannot be an emergent property because consciousness is the precondition for the existence of any emergent property.

The "brain" doesn't objectively and physically exist as a single entity. We create the concept of the brain by arbitrarily "separating" it from everything else; however, there is no objective criterion that allows us to identify what separates brain and non-brain. Obviously, consciousness cannot be a property of an abstraction, because an abstraction cannot conceive of itself. Any set of elements is an arbitrary abstraction because it implies the arbitrary choice of including some elements in the set and excluding others. Physically the brain is not a single entity and therefore every alleged property of the brain is an arbitrary concept, a subjective abstraction, because it depends on the arbitrary definition of the brain. This is sufficient to prove that the hypothesis that consciousness is a property of the brain is nonsensical because it contains an intrinsic logical contradiction; consciousness is a necessary precondition for the existence of arbitrariness, and therefore the existence of consciousness cannot be a consequence of all that implies arbitrariness.

Conversely, if the concept refers to “something” that is NOT inherently arbitrary or subjective or conceptual, then such “something” can exist independently of consciousness. An example of a concept that does not refer to something that is inherently subjective and presupposes the existence of arbitrariness, is the concept of “indivisible entity”.
My arguments prove that the hypothesis that consciousness is an emergent property implies a logical fallacy and an hypothesis that contains a logical contradiction is certainly wrong.

Since consciousness cannot be an emergent property whatsoever, consciousness can only be a fundamental property of an indivisible entity, because only an indivisible entity does not imply any kind of arbitrariness; furthermore, this indivisible entity must interact globally with brain processes because we know that there is a correlation between brain processes and consciousness. This indivisible entity cannot be physical, since according to the laws of physics, there is no physical entity with such properties; therefore this indivisible entity corresponds to what is traditionally called soul or spirit.

Second argument: the laws of physics describe reality very differently from our sensory perceptions; microscopic reality is even beyond the capabilities of our imagination and we can only describe this physical reality through abstract mathematical structures. Classical physics described reality in terms of particles, and the common sense idea of a particle refers to something that does not intrinsically imply the existence of a conscious mind; there are no logical contradictions in postulating the existence of a classical particle as an entity existing independently of a conscious mind. The problem is that, according to quantum physics, there is no "particle of common sense" in physical reality. At the microscopic level, nothing exists as a solid object and reality is described in terms of quantum fields; the concept of quantum field refers to an abstract mathematical structure, something inherently abstract and conceptual in nature, and therefore a quantum field cannot exist in and of itself, but can only exist as an idea in a thinking mind.
The extraordinary success of the laws of physics in systematically predicting natural phenomena with great accuracy reveals a fundamental property of the universe, which is its close correspondence with abstract mathematical structures, to the point that abstract mathematical structures are the only means of identifying the general principles capable of consistently accounting for the variety of natural phenomena. Physical reality manifests itself as the realization of some specific abstract mathematical structures (what we call "the laws of physics"); this close correspondence with abstract mathematical structures represents the most fundamental and relevant information that science provides about the nature of the universe and physical reality.

On the other hand, mathematical structures are only constructions of rational thought and can only exist as concepts in a thinking mind that conceives them; this implies that physical reality is not fundamental, but its existence depends on a more fundamental reality which is mental reality or consciousness: contrary to the basic hypothesis of materialism, consciousness is a more fundamental reality than matter. The existence of this mathematically structured universe implies the existence of a conscious and intelligent God, who supports the existence of the universe by conceiving it as a mathematical model. In other words, the universe is the manifestation of a mathematical theory existing in the mind of a conscious and intelligent God. Atheism does not take into account the most important and fundamental information that science provides on physical reality (that is, its property of being mathematically modelable) and denies, without any rational argument, the only rational explanation.
It is not reasonable to expect that such a close correspondence between some mathematical models (the laws of physics) and the universe would have to exist if the universe did not have the inherent property of being mathematically modelable. It is worth considering that mathematics is incapable of solving problems internal to mathematics itself, even internal to arithmetic; for example, there is no mathematical formula that can predict the sequence of twin primes. Why is the human mind able to conceive mathematical structures that so accurately predict what happens in the universe, if the existence of the universe should be independent and prior to the existence of rational thought and any thinking mind? The point is that the property of being mathematically modelable implies the existence of mathematics, which in turn implies the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind (God).

The second step is to understand that God, the Creator of our own soul and of the whole universe, is the God of the christian faith. I think that the strongest argument supporting the divine nature of Christ is that the christian concept of God and of divine love is the highest possible concept. It is not possible that man could conceive a concept of God superior to the true God, being God the highest good, the source al all good and all true love. I find that the idea itself that God loves us so much that He chose to assume the human nature and accepted to suffer crucifission in order to save us, expresses such a high concept of God and of divine love that it can comes only from God and it is certainly a truth. I believe that Chirst suffered His Passion to help us to have faith in Him and trust Him, to make us understand that God loves us infinitely, that God is good and merciful, that God is near to us and that we are so precious for Him so that we may totally trust Him, open our heart to Him and let Him change our existence in true life and true love. Christ taught us to turn to God as Father and to feel loved as children, and this is something new with respect to the Old Testament. In the Old Testament the transcendence of God, His omnipotence and His justice are highlighted; he is a God far from man, even if he is the God who does not want the sinner to die, but who repents and lives. But Jesus Christ is the God who, driven by His irrepressible Love, strips himself of His Transcendence and omnipotence in order to be as close to us as possible. The christian faith is unique because it gives a very concrete and unique meaning to the concept of divine love: in fact God wanted to express His love in a concrete act, the acceptance of a terrible physical suffering; the God of the christian faith loves us so much that He is willing to suffer a painful death in order to save us from a vain and sinful existence. In the christian faith, love is not only a theoretical and vague concept; Christ’s Passion is a clear and concrete realization of the true love and teaches us the true meaning of love.
 
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timf

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I always considered a definition of agnostic as "insufficient data" Here is a link to a brief description of Christianity that might be helpful

Christianity 101

There are a number of aspects of Christianity that can challenge the mind like eternality. Another one is the gift of free will. There is an article here that might shed light on that subject called "Robots in Revolt";

Christian Pioneer - Current blog
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi all, I'd like to start by saying that I'd have to classify as myself as an agnostic (in that I believe that God could exist however I'm only really beginning my spiritual exploration).

I struggle a bit with certain concepts of Christianity that act as a hurdle requirement for myself. There are questions that I haven't found evidence for that prevent myself from progressing further. Although I do love the genuine core values of Christianity, in terms of honesty, kindness & self-discipline.

One of my major cruxes is the idea that God isn't capable of lying, in my own perspective (if true) this would lessen divinity, in the way that I'd much rather a God that is capable of both good and evil that chooses to be good then one that can't be evil in the first place. Also I don't know if I can believe that someone/entity can be constantly pure and good, if we were created in the image of God then inherently wouldn't our fallibilities and shortcomings have come from him? Also if we view sin as a terminal condition that we all incur with differing levels - where did God base this off of? Wouldn't it be intrinsically from himself? This doesn't bother me, because if this was the case it'd make God a much more believable concept to myself if this makes sense.

This gets us to a tremendously big subject: "What does it even mean to call God God?"

If we took all the various philosophical ideas which have been said about God over the last thousand or so years I'm not sure we'd actually be saying much of anything at all. Or at least, nothing particularly Christian is being said.

In Christianity the chief doctrine of our faith is that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God, and Lord. When the Christian Creeds say that Jesus is God, we are not saying that Jesus is in some category of existence called "God", and is therefore just another god among the gods, or is a set of philosophical abstractions and attributes. But that the very concept of Deity can only be known through the flesh and blood human born of Mary named Jesus.

He says, "If you have known Me you know My Father as well" and "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father", "No one can come to the Father except by way of Me".

That is the meaning of the opening prologue in the Gospel of John, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us"

To say "Jesus is God" does not mean we attribute to Jesus our preconceived ideas of what godhood is or looks like; it means that whatever is meant by "God" can only be comprehended in and through Jesus.

To put it another way: We are not saying "Jesus is God-like" but rather "God is Jesus-like".

That God does not lie is not a detriment to His divinity; but is rather is a matter of His divine character. God is truthful and faithful, He is truthful and faithful to the world, to all of His creation, and we see this and encounter this in Jesus Christ who gives Himself freely, even in death, for us and the world.

God is not defined by how "great" He is, or how "powerful" He is. God is defined by how loving, kind, and selfless He is. God is defined as He who gives Himself away--even if that means dying as a weak mortal human being on a shameful Roman cross.

Also, who create the creator? I can never wrap my head around the idea that an entity was always there. Wouldn't there need to be an origin for God?

Why would there need to be an origin for God? I don't always like analogies, but I wonder if this might not help a little: Imagine being inside of perfect and perfectly smooth sphere. Where does one edge of the sphere begin and another end? Well, it doesn't, right? You could choose an arbitrary point and draw a straight line around the inner surface of the sphere until you come back around. But that's you drawing line from an arbitrary point.

For us time is experienced only one way. So we can look back to a point and draw a line forward from the past into the present, and we can easily conceive of how that line will continue moving forward from the present into the future. But if God is so thoroughly outside of time so as to be simultaneously at whatever point of the past you choose to start drawing a line, and also whatever point in the future you finish drawing that line then it is a lot like drawing that line in a sphere from an arbitrary point.

That's hardly a definitive kind of answer, but I'm hoping it at least helps conceptualize what is meant by speaking of God as eternal, with neither beginning nor end. God doesn't have an origin, because He is everything's origin, and God doesn't have an end, because He is everything's end. Regardless of where you start drawing a line or where you stop drawing that line, the starting point and the ending point, and all infinite points in between, God is there. In whom is all things, and who fills all things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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