Christian Evolutionist

neverforsaken · Aug 15, 2005

everything the bible mentions is in relation to the spiritual being. we fight not a war of flesh and blood but of spirituality. science is not the same as a religion. so its foolish to think that by being a scientific thinker that you cant be a christian. at one time it was thought that diseases were caused by bad blood. In fact, the first president of the USA was killed when he was bled by leeches when he was sick. at one time it was believed that the earth was flat and that earth was the center of the universe. and even not too long ago, we believed the neanderthal to be our direct ancestor, but now we know that they were not. science changes because it does not give us all the answers up front. we have to find the answers and sometimes the answers are incorrect. But it is the word of God that is infallible. The bible is a book of spirituality not science, nor should it be looked at as such. If you want to know how to gain salvation, and how to live like christ, pick up a bible and get to reading. but if you want to learn about the science of the natural world, pick up a book on science and marvel at the complexity of God's design. Appreciate the vast intelligence required to create a universe that not only exists, but evolves. To me, to think of God like a zeus like magical being is insulting. He deserves more credit than that. God is wisdom after all, not ignorance.

Ryder · Aug 15, 2005

Psalm 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever."

The absence of God (or at the least, the absence of His necessity) is the beginning of evolution.

MSBS · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
The absence of God (or at the least, the absence of His necessity) is the beginning of evolution.

In what way?

neverforsaken · Aug 15, 2005

not true. before evolution there was the big bang. this big bang requires matter (everything in the universe is made of matter) yet according to current scientific theory there is no way to destroy matter nor is there a way to create it. so scientifically there is no method for finding out where this matter came from in the first place. the beginning of evolution is knowing that the answer is out there but that we havent found it yet. I do not deny God's existance when i accept scientific theory. It just means i dont stick my fingers in my ears and hum when science rears its head.

Ryder · Aug 15, 2005

Well, if you claim that you don't want to start by throwing God out of the picture, from a Christian perspective that is, then why evolution? If creatures look like they are very complicated, barely a mistake in their form for what they do, then why the big complicated evolutionary explination? Why didn't God just design them so complicated and suited for their purposes? Evolution seems like a very complicated and unnecessary step if you already have God in the picture.

Nathan Poe · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
Psalm 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:

Too bad Creationists also consider it the last word as well as the first.

Nathan Poe · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
Well, if you claim that you don't want to start by throwing God out of the picture, from a Christian perspective that is, then why evolution? If creatures look like they are very complicated, barely a mistake in their form for what they do, then why the big complicated evolutionary explination? Why didn't God just design them so complicated and suited for their purposes? Evolution seems like a very complicated and unnecessary step if you already have God in the picture.

Because "Goddidit" in and of itself explains nothing.

"God did it, and it looks like He did it this way" is more useful...

Ryder · Aug 15, 2005

If God is real, and who He says He is, you'd be a fool not to have a healthy fear of Him. Given the premise that Christians accept, that God is real, how is that so strange? Wouldn't you have a healthy fear of an all-powerful being, assuming you believed?

Nathan Poe · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
If God is real, and who He says He is, you'd be a fool not to have a healthy fear of Him.

OT God? Abject terror might be more accurate.
The NT God seems a bit more laid back.

Given the premise that Christians accept, that God is real, how is that so strange?

Not strange at all. It's a matter of degree.

Wouldn't you have a healthy fear of an all-powerful being, assuming you believed?

But is a fear which paralyzes us from learning new ideas considered "healthy"?

Lucretius · Aug 15, 2005

neverforsaken said:
not true. before evolution there was the big bang. this big bang requires matter (everything in the universe is made of matter) yet according to current scientific theory there is no way to destroy matter nor is there a way to create it. so scientifically there is no method for finding out where this matter came from in the first place. the beginning of evolution is knowing that the answer is out there but that we havent found it yet. I do not deny God's existance when i accept scientific theory. It just means i dont stick my fingers in my ears and hum when science rears its head.

Don't forget E=Mc^2, which states that energy is transmutable with matter. Matter most likely converted to energy at the extremes directly following the Big Bang. Besides, who said anything about a beginning to everything? Are you to tell me there was no Big Crunch before the Big Bang, which we cannot yet find a way to probe. Are you to tell me there was no D-brane collision resulting in a transference of matter in an infinite multiverse? I'm not going to say that because we don't have all evidence, I must be right, but I will say that you must leave the possibility open especially regarding D-branes, when the gravity wave detector comes out in 2015. It might possibility be able to detect such a brane due to the postulation that gravity is the only force able to travel between universes (assuming there are ones).

Ryder · Aug 15, 2005

Just for the record, you added the paralyzing fear part. I'd probably agree with you here and not call that a healthy fear.

Nathan Poe · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
Just for the record, you added the paralyzing fear part. I'd probably agree with you here and not call that a healthy fear.

And yet this is what Creationism, in its worst incarnations, does. Proclaiming the Young Earth, Global Flood, etc., as unquestionable articles of faith. Your SOUL is on the line!

God --> literal Bible --> Creationist ---> the rest of us, and the Devil take any who disagree.

Ryder · Aug 15, 2005

Nathan Poe said:
And yet this is what Creationism, in its worst incarnations, does. Proclaiming the Young Earth, Global Flood, etc., as unquestionable articles of faith. Your SOUL is on the line!

God --> literal Bible --> Creationist ---> the rest of us, and the Devil take any who disagree.

Interesting... And here's what I actually said,

Ryder said:
Believing in evolution doesn't mean you can't be a Christian. I will say though that I'm not sure what the appeal is, to believe in a theory with the primary premise of a naturalistic universe, and that is largely unproven to this day. Oh well, go figure...

I merely raised the question, why believe in evolution if you're a Christian? Not, you'd better believe in creationism or you'll go to hell!

But hey, thanks for trying to put words in my mouth by association.

Robert the Pilegrim · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
Believing in evolution doesn't mean you can't be a Christian. I will say though that I'm not sure what the appeal is, to believe in a theory with the primary premise of a naturalistic universe,

Do you believe in gravity?

and that is largely unproven to this day.

And you base this last statement on what,exactly?

Ryder · Aug 15, 2005

Largely the fossil record, which for the overwhelming part still shows creatures 'popping' into existence fully formed, and remaining unchanged until they disappear, or in some cases to this present day. Additionally, the mechanism for evolution, wholly new features not found in the gene pool, has not been satisfactorily demonstrated yet either.

Tomk80 · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
Largely the fossil record, which for the overwhelming part still shows creatures 'popping' into existence fully formed, and remaining unchanged until they disappear, or in some cases to this present day.

Funny then that we can discern three types of Neanderthal, the characteristics of which change according to the time frame. We do in fact see creatures and structures appearing gradually. Sure, it is not as detailed as we would like, but then we wouldn't expect that.

Additionally, the mechanism for evolution, wholly new features not found in the gene pool, has not been satisfactorily demonstrated yet either.

And you would call the emergence of the ability to digest nylon what? If it isn't a new feature, what is it?

Split Rock · Aug 15, 2005

Master X said:
Because you are THEN simply neglecting His ability to create...since He created all things, Evolution all it claims is that all things were created by "nature" or "coincedence". Evolution doesnt involve God at all, it is teach in schools to influence in everyones minds to perpitrate to a false fact that "God doesnt exist".

Science cannot speculate on whether or not God tinkered with evolution, or if he just set it up. We know that the accepted natural mechanisms work, though there is discussion about how much each contributes. It is up to you personally to decide how God fits in... science cannot help you there.

Master X said:
I mean think about it brothers and sisters at what Satan has done....

What has he done?

Master X said:
^ One if you cant take this literally, then by all means thats like saying "Jesus never walked on water." < By which by we all know that He did walked on water, so if we believe that Jesus has done something like this, how hard is it to believe in the book of Genesis. When Satan as a serpent who tempted Eve into making Man as it is today: confused, knowing both good and evil, and by Adam are sinners...

Maybe he didn't walk on water... maybe he did. How many stories do you know with talking animals are parables, and how many do you know that are historical fact? As far as Satan (or Lucifer) is concerned, the Old Testament NEVER mentions his name. It wasn't until later that the Jews came up with him. It was then assumed by some that the talking snake was Satan. Of course, if it was Satan, then he is crawling on his belly eating dirt as we speak. Oh wait.... isn't that supposed to represent how snakes move around? Nah... that would make Genesis a parable, and we can't have that...

Split Rock · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
Believing in evolution doesn't mean you can't be a Christian. I will say though that I'm not sure what the appeal is, to believe in a theory with the primary premise of a naturalistic universe, and that is largely unproven to this day. Oh well, go figure...

Evolution is a scientific theory. The only "appeal" is that it works. It is the only scientific explanation for the distribution and diversity of life on earth that explains the evidence. For science, it is irrelevant whether or not a theory is emotionally pleasing, all that matters is that it works.

Mistermystery · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
If God is real, and who He says He is, you'd be a fool not to have a healthy fear of Him. Given the premise that Christians accept, that God is real, how is that so strange? Wouldn't you have a healthy fear of an all-powerful being, assuming you believed?

So you bascially believe because you *fear* God? Is that the basis of your belief? And you even call it healthy?

**Woosh** There went the whole notion I had of Christianity.

Mistermystery · Aug 15, 2005

Ryder said:
Largely the fossil record, which for the overwhelming part still shows creatures 'popping' into existence fully formed,

reeeeeeeeally now? I must have missed thos, could you please show me all these creatures?

and remaining unchanged until they disappear,

For the record:
1) fossilisation is a rare event
2) Not all fossils are preserved
3) evolution does not say that everything must change (infact when an enviorment doesn't change, you'd expect no or hardly any change at all)

the mechanism for evolution, wholly new features not found in the gene pool, has not been satisfactorily demonstrated yet either.

Oh you mean something like this? Or this? No of course not.

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