Christian Dualism

[ReformedChapin]

I was in the Philosophy and Ethics section of the forum today and there was a discussion on tarot cards. My Christianity was put in question because I asked how do you know that these cards are demonic or possessed. Notice I am not denying that they are demonic or possessed I just don't know if I can assert that there is a demon in them because I have no way of knowing there is a demon in there. I also didn't deny the existence of demons. Clearly they exist as they are shown to be very real in the New Testament. I just don't know how they interact with us anymore if they still do. I am also not saying you should be playing a magical game with the cards either, clearly thats unbiblical.

I have noticed two interesting trend among several contemporary evangelicals. First there is a big attempt to copy the New Testament in the sense that we have similar "powers" for the lack of better words as the early church. And two there also seems to be a belief in a dualist system between God and Satan. Everything that is bad, Satan or a demon is directing it and everything good God is directing them. I have a big issue to this as I cannot know if Satan is directing all bad things. Clearly Satan was responsible for several evil things in the bible but does that imply that he is directing things now? And certainly we are fallen therefore perform bad deeds, did Satan guide us to do those evil things? I don't think he does. It's me and my fallen nature. What I do know for sure is that I believe in God's complete sovereignty so God is fully in control of all the bad things that happen that includes that fall. No, I am not blaming God I am just stating is that he is fully in control. Satan is bound by God and will always be.

Your thoughts...

 

[Cris413]

I don't think a deck of cards can be possessed...I do however consider the use of tarot cards to be a practice of the occult...and those using them or seeking answers through them are opening themselves up to some pretty bad spiritual encounters.

I also believe there are vessels made for honor and vessels for dishonor...but all subject to God's sovereign authority according to His perfect will and purpose.

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

Absolutely. I do believe that Satan is real, that He is against God and God's people but Satan can't do anything without first going through God as in Job's case.

God is in control and allows things to happen for reasons we will never completely understand. I know in my own life that in the bad and ugly times that is when I have been more shaped into Christlikeness and more dependant on God.

God disciplines those He loves. Satan tempts. Although, Satan can only tempt us with the strongholds we store up in our flesh.

Tarot cards are something that God says to stay away from. So we would be wise to obey for He knows what's best. I will share with you a story...my former Pastor had a teen turn in their tarot cards to him. The Pastor went ahead and burnt them but the "death" card would not burn. He threw it in the fire but it would not burn. So he prayed over it and then it burnt. Not sure what that was but it sounds pretty real to me.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I really hope that I don't sound demeaning in anyway in my following post. I really don't mean to I am just trying to show my point of view. I have never seen a credible source of possession of cards or any possession. Most of the stories I have heard or seen are from loons. Sorry if you had an experience that you feel it's real but that's been my observation and I tend to be very skeptical.

Also I am not defending Satan but I think we sometimes blame things on him when we ourselves are responsible for our actions. Again, I am not denying his existence or of any other supernatural creatures in the NT. I am just stating I don't know how they interact with us. I don't even know if its possible for me to KNOW if Satan is right next to me in the current conditions. I think that the early church had several revelations by God but that is no longer in play.

 

[Secundulus]

I was in the Philosophy and Ethics section of the forum today and there was a discussion on tarot cards. My Christianity was put in question because I asked how do you know that these cards are demonic or possessed. Notice I am not denying that they are demonic or possessed I just don't know if I can assert that there is a demon in them because I have no way of knowing there is a demon in there. I also didn't deny the existence of demons. Clearly they exist as they are shown to be very real in the New Testament. I just don't know how they interact with us anymore if they still do. I am also not saying you should be playing a magical game with the cards either, clearly thats unbiblical.

I have noticed two interesting trend among several contemporary evangelicals. First there is a big attempt to copy the New Testament in the sense that we have similar "powers" for the lack of better words as the early church. And two there also seems to be a belief in a dualist system between God and Satan. Everything that is bad, Satan or a demon is directing it and everything good God is directing them. I have a big issue to this as I cannot know if Satan is directing all bad things. Clearly Satan was responsible for several evil things in the bible but does that imply that he is directing things now? And certainly we are fallen therefore perform bad deeds, did Satan guide us to do those evil things? I don't think he does. It's me and my fallen nature. What I do know for sure is that I believe in God's complete sovereignty so God is fully in control of all the bad things that happen that includes that fall. No, I am not blaming God I am just stating is that he is fully in control. Satan is bound by God and will always be.

Your thoughts...

I once knew and listened to a former Satanist who had become a Christian. These things can certainly be influenced by Satan and his minions. On the other hand, they can also be nothing but paper and a figment of the user's imagination. Either way, they are useless and to be shunned.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I once knew and listened to a former Satanist who had become a Christian. These things can certainly be influenced by Satan and his minions. On the other hand, they can also be nothing but paper and a figment of the user's imagination. Either way, they are useless and to be shunned.

I guess it's possible. I just wonder why it's always the people who are in weird pagan things that have the encounters. I was a former atheist and my biggest problems with "religion" as a whole was some of the supposed super natural encouters people have.

 

[MrJim]

Usually what we deal with in Christian Dualism is that only the "spiritual" is important and good and that "matter" is evil and detrimental..

 

[Cris413]

Usually what we deal with in Christian Dualism is that only the "spiritual" is important and good and that "matter" is evil and detrimental..

I don't understand what you're saying...

I guess I don't know what Christian "dualism" is.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Usually what we deal with in Christian Dualism is that only the "spiritual" is important and good and that "matter" is evil and detrimental..

I didn't the mean official title. Although dualism can mean different things.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I was in the Philosophy and Ethics section of the forum today and there was a discussion on tarot cards. My Christianity was put in question because I asked how do you know that these cards are demonic or possessed. Notice I am not denying that they are demonic or possessed I just don't know if I can assert that there is a demon in them because I have no way of knowing there is a demon in there. I also didn't deny the existence of demons. Clearly they exist as they are shown to be very real in the New Testament. I just don't know how they interact with us anymore if they still do. I am also not saying you should be playing a magical game with the cards either, clearly thats unbiblical.

I have noticed two interesting trend among several contemporary evangelicals. First there is a big attempt to copy the New Testament in the sense that we have similar "powers" for the lack of better words as the early church. And two there also seems to be a belief in a dualist system between God and Satan. Everything that is bad, Satan or a demon is directing it and everything good God is directing them. I have a big issue to this as I cannot know if Satan is directing all bad things. Clearly Satan was responsible for several evil things in the bible but does that imply that he is directing things now? And certainly we are fallen therefore perform bad deeds, did Satan guide us to do those evil things? I don't think he does. It's me and my fallen nature. What I do know for sure is that I believe in God's complete sovereignty so God is fully in control of all the bad things that happen that includes that fall. No, I am not blaming God I am just stating is that he is fully in control. Satan is bound by God and will always be.

Your thoughts...

First Christianity, even when it carries a strong belief about Satan as a source or agitator of evil is not dualistic. In order to be truly dualistic Satan would have to be regarded as the polar opposite of God, thus making him equal to God but opposite. Clearly Christianity does not teach this, and no orthodox Christian believes it.

As to Satan as the source of evil. I think some people put too much emphasis on the devil as a mastermind and a puppet master. However, the bible does name him father of lies, and it does tend to indicate that when someone does evil they are serving satan, or acting on satan's behalf.

For example when Peter told Jesus that he should not go to be crucified, meaning well of course from peter's perspective.. Jesus' response was to say "get behind me Satan."
I see no indication there that Peter was actually posessed by Satan, nor do I see clear indication that Satan was "pulling his strings". Peter appears simply to have been acting according to his fleshly, soulish nature.

This implies to me that because his action ultimately was in the same character as Satan and Satan's intent Jesus attributed it to Satan as though it were directly done by him.

It could also be seen perhaps that Peter's action was based on his own ideas, but that Satan, perhaps, was actively using them to tempt Jesus and perhaps this is what Jesus was rebuking.

In any case, there are scriptures which imply that satan is the father, or originator of lies, deception, and rebellion in general. He may not personally be behind every little instance directly pulling the strings, but it all traces back to him eventually.

I don't think we can cry "the devil made me do it" so much as recognize that when we serve self, we are doing the devil's work whether he MADE us or not.

 

[Nadiine]

I really hope that I don't sound demeaning in anyway in my following post. I really don't mean to I am just trying to show my point of view. I have never seen a credible source of possession of cards or any possession. Most of the stories I have heard or seen are from loons. Sorry if you had an experience that you feel it's real but that's been my observation and I tend to be very skeptical.

Also I am not defending Satan but I think we sometimes blame things on him when we ourselves are responsible for our actions. Again, I am not denying his existence or of any other supernatural creatures in the NT. I am just stating I don't know how they interact with us. I don't even know if its possible for me to KNOW if Satan is right next to me in the current conditions. I think that the early church had several revelations by God but that is no longer in play.

Having tarot cards doesn't automatically amount to being
mandatorily "possessed" tho.

The issue is the open doorway to the occult THRU an unclean object.
& thru treading on Satan's territory, we open ourselves up to
demonic influence and attack in many ways.

We aren't giving undo 'fanaticism' to Satan by acknowledging his
power or tactics... the entire Bible is FULL of warnings & instruction
on our enemy.
People are just as much in error by ignoring Satan & what is often times
demonic as they can be in error by placing all blame & focus onto
him. There is no balance in either extreme & both are just as harmful
imo.

& the issue w/ your posts was that you were showing SUPPORT to tarot
cards - as if to mock my warnings to people about the occult when
we should be warning about it.
They ARE used for divination & most all decks out today are made
FOR that very purpose & they're used by witches & mediums.
There's just no reason for a Christian to have such items used by
occultists.

Things made FOR witchcraft are just nothing Christians should
dabble with.

 

[Cris413]

Having tarot cards doesn't automatically amount to being
mandatorily "possessed" tho.

The issue is the open doorway to the occult THRU an unclean object.
& thru treading on Satan's territory, we open ourselves up to
demonic influence and attack in many ways.

We aren't giving undo 'fanaticism' to Satan by acknowledging his
power or tactics... the entire Bible is FULL of warnings & instruction
on our enemy.
People are just as much in error by ignoring Satan & what is often times
demonic as they can be in error by placing all blame & focus onto
him. There is no balance in either extreme & both are just as harmful
imo.

& the issue w/ your posts was that you were showing SUPPORT to tarot
cards - as if to mock my warnings to people about the occult when
we should be warning about it.
They ARE used for divination & most all decks out today are made
FOR that very purpose & they're used by witches & mediums.
There's just no reason for a Christian to have such items used by
occultists.

Things made FOR witchcraft are just nothing Christians should
dabble with.

Yep...which is why people who dabble in such things are also usually those who have ugly and frightening supernatural experiences. They've pretty much invited such encounters into their lives.

As many of you know...in my BC days...I had a huge interest in the occult and had decided on wicca before I had my "Damascas Road" experience with Christ Jesus...

...when I came to Christ I knew very little about Christianity and even less about walking with the Lord...

and not long after Jesus saved me...a friend gave me a deck of tarot cards for Christmas...

My first thought was cool...these will be fun...anyway...I took the cards home...and started to look through the deck...and I got soooo creeped out and I couldn't figure out why... but I put them back in the box and set them on the coffee table...the creepy feeling I got from those cards just kept getting stronger and stronger until I just had to throw them away a couple days later...I hated to toss a Christmas gift...but they simply had to go.

I don't think it was demonic spirits in the cards that creeped me out...I think it was the Holy Spirit telling me to toss them...'cause even though I didn't know Him very well...He certainly knew me and that playing around with those cards could lead to some serious spiritual consequences...

...and I had already gotten into enough spiritual trouble as it were......as the next year or so of my life would be evident of.

The enemy doesn't like it a whole big bunch when God snatches people right out of his grip.

 

[Nadiine]

Yep...which is why people who dabble in such things are also usually those who have ugly and frightening supernatural experiences. They've pretty much invited such encounters into their lives.

As many of you know...in my BC days...I had a huge interest in the occult and had decided on wicca before I had my "Damascas Road" experience with Christ Jesus...

...when I came to Christ I knew very little about Christianity and even less about walking with the Lord...

and not long after Jesus saved me...a friend gave me a deck of tarot cards for Christmas...

My first thought was cool...these will be fun...anyway...I took the cards home...and started to look through the deck...and I got soooo creeped out and I couldn't figure out why... but I put them back in the box and set them on the coffee table...the creepy feeling I got from those cards just kept getting stronger and stronger until I just had to throw them away a couple days later...I hated to toss a Christmas gift...but they simply had to go.

I don't think it was demonic spirits in the cards that creeped me out...I think it was the Holy Spirit telling me to toss them...'cause even though I didn't know Him very well...He certainly knew me and that playing around with those cards could lead to some serious spiritual consequences...

...and I had already gotten into enough spiritual trouble as it were......as the next year or so of my life would be evident of.

The enemy doesn't like it a whole big bunch when God snatches people right out of his grip.

Wow what a testimony Cris.
I agree too that it was the Holy Spirit guiding you thru your conscience
as to something being wrong with them.

When you look at the actual cards, you can definitely sense there's
something not "Godly" about them at all.

People's cop out's on that other thread were that back in the
middle ages, tarot cards were originated as a legitimate game.
That it wasn't till a little later that other cards were then added
to them/or they were altered & then used by spiritists...
as if that makes them the same card decks as centuries ago.


The cards today ARE the divination cards & made for that purpose.
I guess if something WAS "ok" at one time ages ago, that it always remains that way even if they're hijacked & changed entirely.

I was just shocked to read so many people professing to be
Christians, then going after me for warning of occult items!
I assumed it would be a no brainer as to Christians warning
people to stay away from this stuff.

Theology is just secular anymore as far as I'm concerned.
They've literally promoted & supported Wife swapping & adultery,
porn, fornication, nudism, having occult paraphanalia, homosexuality,
mingling Christianity w/ false religions ("Christian Buddhism" &
"Christian pantheonism"), abortion & whatever the heck else!

I actually pray naive or weak spirited people stay away from
parts of this site to be spared the false teaching & confusion.

 

[InterestedBystander]

To the OP: People willingly allow themselves to be drawn into witchcraft because of the sin of pride. They give Satan the power when they dare to think they're super special enough to be picked to receive whatever benefit or power they think they're getting from it. It's this type of thinking that causes me to personally broaden my concept of what constitutes witchcraft. People dare to do things and label it Christian in many instances, or claim that since they're Christian then they couldn't possibly be doing/participating in something anti-Christ.

 

[Cris413]

Wow what a testimony Cris.
I agree too that it was the Holy Spirit guiding you thru your conscience
as to something being wrong with them.

When you look at the actual cards, you can definitely sense there's
something not "Godly" about them at all.

People's cop out's on that other thread were that back in the
middle ages, tarot cards were originated as a legitimate game.
That it wasn't till a little later that other cards were then added
to them/or they were altered & then used by spiritists...
as if that makes them the same card decks as centuries ago.


The cards today ARE the divination cards & made for that purpose.
I guess if something WAS "ok" at one time ages ago, that it always remains that way even if they're hijacked & changed entirely.

I was just shocked to read so many people professing to be
Christians, then going after me for warning of occult items!
I assumed it would be a no brainer as to Christians warning
people to stay away from this stuff.

Theology is just secular anymore as far as I'm concerned.
They've literally promoted & supported Wife swapping & adultery,
porn, fornication, nudism, having occult paraphanalia, homosexuality,
mingling Christianity w/ false religions ("Christian Buddhism" &
"Christian pantheonism"), abortion & whatever the heck else!

I actually pray naive or weak spirited people stay away from
parts of this site to be spared the false teaching & confusion.

Which reminds me of another experience I had shortly after the tarot card incident.

That Spring I had the great idea (cough cough) that a couple of my friends and I should go to psychic fair that came to town. I thought it would be great fun to check out all the crystals and new age paraphernalia, have our auras photographed and fortunes told and such. (I guess the tarot card incident wasn’t enough to get my attention)

I was really looking forward to the fair…right up until we entered the convention hall. The moment we walked through the doors…I got a really bad, sickening feeling. The deeper into the convention hall we went…the worse it got.

I begged my friends to leave…but they were having a great time…and after all it WAS my idea…

I told them…I don’t know what it is….but there is bad, bad stuff here and I’m not kidding...still…they wouldn’t leave and I ended up waiting outside for them…I just couldn’t stand to be in that building. Once I got outside…I was OK.

Thankfully they didn’t stay much longer…but they certainly had fun ribbing me all the way home….I didn’t care…whatever was in the building was beyond BAD and I was absolutely amazed they didn’t even sense it at all.

I totally believe demonic spirits were all through that place…and it was the Holy Spirit that made me sensitive to it.

 

[Cris413]

To the OP: People willingly allow themselves to be drawn into witchcraft because of the sin of pride. They give Satan the power when they dare to think they're super special enough to be picked to receive whatever benefit or power they think they're getting from it. It's this type of thinking that causes me to personally broaden my concept of what constitutes witchcraft. People dare to do things and label it Christian in many instances, or claim that since they're Christian then they couldn't possibly be doing/participating in something anti-Christ.

This is very true...that was my attraction to wicca...it was so self-centered and so self-indulgent...and the thought it would make me uber cool and give me power over other people.... was just soo attractive and totally fed my ego.

I actually thought...I would absolutely rather have power in Satan's army than be a pawn of God...if there was a God...I totally knew what I was doing wasn't Christian though

Even after I was saved...I thought...very mistakenly I might add...as with the tarot cards and psychic fair and such...was that I could go about my life like nothing had changed when I came to Christ....ummmm...WRONG.

I praise God and am so thankful and grateful...He had other plans for me.

Which is kinda why I believe in predestination...God stepped right in about 2 weeks before my appt to meet with a wiccan coven....and revealed Himself to me in such an undeniable way...

 

[Nadiine]

To the OP: People willingly allow themselves to be drawn into witchcraft because of the sin of pride. They give Satan the power when they dare to think they're super special enough to be picked to receive whatever benefit or power they think they're getting from it. It's this type of thinking that causes me to personally broaden my concept of what constitutes witchcraft. People dare to do things and label it Christian in many instances, or claim that since they're Christian then they couldn't possibly be doing/participating in something anti-Christ.

Too true!

In one of my posts on that thread I had used the word "arrogantly"
pertaining to how people think they can [arrogantly] play with
the occult & think they won't be touched by it. It's a sense
of denial as to what is of Satan & as if you can do anything
you want & you'll be guarded just becuz you have God's power.
nonsense.
(I edited the word out in case someone might take it as a flame
& report it)

It's these very people who are the ones so influenced & decieved
to sin... one of the posters in that thread who was going
after me, has a sig. image "pro choice". I rest my case on how
people are influenced & have no clue they're being used.

I've noticed the ones who argue the loudest are often the ones being influenced by it the most becuz they've been involved w/ it
or have the items/paraphanalia that brings it.
I also reacted the same when I had all the demonic vid. games,
movies, music, etc.
Satan definitely works against us in these ways.

ps. welcome to CF =0)

 

[Nadiine]

Which reminds me of another experience I had shortly after the tarot card incident.

That Spring I had the great idea (cough cough) that a couple of my friends and I should go to psychic fair that came to town. I thought it would be great fun to check out all the crystals and new age paraphernalia, have our auras photographed and fortunes told and such. (I guess the tarot card incident wasn’t enough to get my attention)

I was really looking forward to the fair…right up until we entered the convention hall. The moment we walked through the doors…I got a really bad, sickening feeling. The deeper into the convention hall we went…the worse it got.

I begged my friends to leave…but they were having a great time…and after all it WAS my idea…

I told them…I don’t know what it is….but there is bad, bad stuff here and I’m not kidding...still…they wouldn’t leave and I ended up waiting outside for them…I just couldn’t stand to be in that building. Once I got outside…I was OK.

Thankfully they didn’t stay much longer…but they certainly had fun ribbing me all the way home….I didn’t care…whatever was in the building was beyond BAD and I was absolutely amazed they didn’t even sense it at all.

I totally believe demonic spirits were all through that place…and it was the Holy Spirit that made me sensitive to it.

Yipes! I sense a little stubborn streak in you sistah LOL

I can imagine how bad their teasing you might of gotten after you
wouldn't go in... but aren't you glad you didn't now?


God is good!

 

[Cris413]

Yipes! I sense a little stubborn streak in you sistah LOL

I can imagine how bad their teasing you might of gotten after you
wouldn't go in... but aren't you glad you didn't now?


God is good!

Interestingly…well…to me anyway…I don’t think it was stubbornness as much as it was ignorance of the depth of all things spiritual.

I think that and the enemy was trying to keep me ignorant…and VULNERABLE…by deception and distraction. I thought maybe I was being silly about the tarot cards…and the psychic fair…it was just all “harmless fun” right.

And the fair…it wasn’t a conscious choice not to stay. I simply could NOT be in that building and I was quite perplexed by it…it was then I started to consider that maybe…just maybe…there ARE serious spiritual forces at work here.

The next year of my life was a supernatural nightmare…as I say…the enemy doesn’t like it a whole big bunch when God takes those from him he considers belong to him.

I really don’t want to go into a lot of detail…I don’t like to talk about it much…particularly with those who don’t know me well…’cause as was mentioned earlier…many tend to think that those of us who have experienced supernatural spiritual encounters of the ugly kind…are kinda nutz….

…but…rather than consider what was happening to me was spiritual…I basically thought I was losing my mind…and a psychiatrist agreed with me…and promptly prescribed lithium for my troubles…

Again…I praise God I didn’t go down the lithium road…and to make a long story even longer…I totally support and encourage the importance of staying grounded in the word and focused on Christ…and the importance of recognizing spiritual things for what they are…so that we can nip that crap in the bud before we find ourselves bombarded by the enemy….particularly those of us that were duped into embracing the lies of the father of all lies regarding the occult.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Having tarot cards doesn't automatically amount to being
mandatorily "possessed" tho.

The issue is the open doorway to the occult THRU an unclean object.
& thru treading on Satan's territory, we open ourselves up to
demonic influence and attack in many ways.

We aren't giving undo 'fanaticism' to Satan by acknowledging his
power or tactics... the entire Bible is FULL of warnings & instruction
on our enemy.
People are just as much in error by ignoring Satan & what is often times
demonic as they can be in error by placing all blame & focus onto
him. There is no balance in either extreme & both are just as harmful
imo.

& the issue w/ your posts was that you were showing SUPPORT to tarot
cards - as if to mock my warnings to people about the occult when
we should be warning about it.
They ARE used for divination & most all decks out today are made
FOR that very purpose & they're used by witches & mediums.
There's just no reason for a Christian to have such items used by
occultists.

Things made FOR witchcraft are just nothing Christians should
dabble with.

Again...how do you know it's Satans territory? What territory?

BTW In my post I made it very clear that Tarot Cards should not be used for idolatrous practices. I can't see there is any magic in them because I don't know if there is any. If you have them for art, what's the harm? You better not have a picture of Santa either since he's a pagan idol too. In the bible I see Satan being a tool directly being used by God even with his evil, like all evil things God controls them. Let's not forget Job.

There is many supposed magical things that we all deal with which are simply superstition.