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Christian denominations supporting evolution

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Vance

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Here is what some prominent Christian denominations (and one Jewish organization) are saying about creation and evolution:

UNITED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH IN THE U.S.A.

[relevant part of a resolution adopted by the Assembly]

Therefore, the Program Agency recommends to the 194th General Assembly (1982) the adoption of the following affirmation:
Affirms that, despite efforts to establish "creationism" or "creation-science" as a valid science, it is teaching based upon a particular religious dogma as agreed by the court (McLean vs Arkansas Board of Education); Affirms that, the imposition of a fundamentalist viewpoint about the interpretation of Biblical literature -- where every word is taken with uniform literalness and becomes an absolute authority on all matters, whether moral, religious, political, historical or scientific -- is in conflict with the perspective on Biblical interpretation characteristically maintained by Biblical scholars and theological schools in the mainstream of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and Judaism. Such scholars find that the scientific theory of evolution does not conflict with their interpretation of the origins of life found in Biblical literature.



UNITED METHODIST CHURCH

Whereas, "Scientific" creationism seeks to prove that natural history conforms absolutely to the Genesis account of origins; and,

Whereas, adherence to immutable theories is fundamentally antithetical to the nature of science; and,

Whereas, "Scientific" creationism seeks covertly to promote a particular religious dogma; and,

Whereas, the promulgation of religious dogma in public schools is contrary to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution; therefore,

Be it resolved that The Iowa Annual Conference opposes efforts to introduce "Scientific" creationism into the science curriculum of the public schools.

Passed June 1984, Iowa Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church.


THE LUTHERAN WORLD FEDERATION
[excerpts]



Rather, the evolutionary dynamisms of today's world compel a more realistic confrontation. One area of reality after another has been analyzed and described on the basis of some kind of progressive change until the whole may be viewed as a single process. The standpoint of the one who views this unitary development may be avowedly atheistic in the sense of ruling out the supernatural (Sir Julian Huxley) or just as avowedly Christian in the sense of finding in evolution an infusion of new life into Christianity, with Christianity alone dynamic enough to unify the world with God (Teilhard de Chardin).

. . .



With biological evolution (ostensibly a matter of pure science) thereby becoming a metaphysics of evolution it needs to be determined whether religion's proper quarrel is with the science which permits itself such dogmatic extension or whether the misgivings are primarily with the particular philosophical interpretation involved. To the evolutionary concept in general there are however (in spite of innumerable variations) basically two religious reactions.


As in the days of the Scopes trial all evolution may still be denied on the grounds of a literalistic interpretation of the Bible, especially Genesis 111. Not content with the commitment of faith in the Creator expressed in the First Article of the Apostles' Creed this interpretation may demand a specific answer also to the questions of when creation occurred and how long it took. On the premise of a literal acceptance of the Scriptures as authoritative also in matters of science the whole of past existence is comprehended within the limited time span of biblical chronologies and genealogies. The vastness of astronomical time with its incredible number of light years may be accounted for as an instantaneous arrival of light and the eras of geological and biological time with their strata, fossils, and dinosaurs pointing to the existence of life and death on the earth ages before the arrival of man may be reduced to one literal week of creative activity.

On the other hand there are those who can no more close their eyes to the evidence which substantiates some kind of lengthy evolutionary process in the opinion of the vast majority of those scientists most competent to judge than they could deny the awesome reality of God's presence in nature and their own experience of complete dependence upon the creative and sustaining hand of God revealed in the Scriptures.

. . .

An assessment of the prevailing situation makes it clear that evolution's assumptions are as much around us as the air we breathe and no more escapable. At the same time theology's affirmations are being made as responsibly as ever. In this sense both science and religion are here to stay, and the demands of either are great enough to keep most (if not all) from daring to profess competence in both. To preserve their own integrity both science and religion need to remain in a healthful tension of respect toward one another and to engage in a searching debate which no more permits theologians to pose as scientists than it permits scientists to pose as theologians.



ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

Pope John Paul II


Cosmogony itself speaks to us of the origins of the universe and its makeup, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise but in order to state the correct relationship of man with God and with the universe. Sacred Scripture wishes simply to declare that the world was created by God, and in order to teach this truth, it expresses itself in the terms of the cosmology in use at the time of the writer. The sacred book likewise wishes to tell men that the world was not created as the seat of the gods, as was taught by other cosmogonies and cosmologies, but was rather created for the service of man and the glory of God. Any other teaching about the origin and makeup of the universe is alien to the intentions of the Bible, which does not wish to teach how heaven was made but how one goes to heaven.



AMERICAN JEWISH CONGRESS


Under the standards so clearly articulated by the Supreme Court, Proclamation 60 and Board Rule 5, as presently written, fail to satisfy the constitutional requirement of separation of church and state. In order to comply with the applicable constitutional provisions, the proclamation and board rule should be revised in three ways. First, evolution should be clearly included in the science curriculum. Second, evolution should be taught as are all scientific theories and should not be singled out for special negative comment. Finally, the proposed textbook standards should make clear that scientific creationism is not to be taught as scientific theory. Rather, because there is no constitutional objection to teaching about religion, public school teachers should simply tell their students, when evolution is taught, that there are certain religious groups whose members do not accept the Darwinian theory and advise them to consult with their parents or religious advisors for further guidance on the subject.


All of which, and more, can be found here:

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4650_statements_from_religious_orga_3_13_2001.asp#ajc
 

Chi_Cygni

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Vance said:
I guess these denominations are not REAL Christians anyway. :0)
LOL Vance LOL

You're right that is what the fundamentalists usually say. When they themselves are such a minority.

If you take the number of Christians in this world - about 1.9 billion. And you subtract the Catholics 1.2 billion, the Anglicans 100 million ,the Orthodox church 100 million and various other 'moderate' churches you are left with approx. 100 million (at the outside) fundamentalists.

In other words approx. 5% of Christians are fundamentalists - but to hear their loud (grating) voice you would think they speak for Christianity as a whole.

Heck 90% of Christians they don't even consider Christian, and they say it with such spite and hate. Hippocrites pure and simple.

(I know these numbers are inexact, but the gist is correct here.)
 
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dctalkexp

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I am what you would call a fundamentalist Christian, and I would never say that someone isn't a Christian simply because they choose to believe in evolution. Surely they can, but to me, they are contradicting the clear Word of God, and indeed science itself. That's not to say that they aren't saved though.

Chi_Cygni said:
Heck 90% of Christians they don't even consider Christian, and they say it with such spite and hate. Hippocrites pure and simple.

I think the irony is clear here. There is no hate to be had for those who don't take the Bible literally, just disappointment, because I believe they continue to open up doors for more and more compromise in the future.

God bless,

Robert
 
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Vance

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Exactly, and I would say YEC'ism fits that description pretty well. Very poor doctrine (since it teaches that God's Creation and His Word contradict each other), it definitely has teachers like Hovind saying what the yearning fundamentalist wants to hear. And the bizzarre concepts and theories YEC's develop to support their unsupportable science fall squarely within the "myth" category.
 
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Ark Guy

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The bible....Adam was created form the dust then Eve was created from Adams side.

Vance...Adams great uncle was a monkey

So, who do you trust? The bible or vance?

2TI 3:16 All Scripture (unless it disagrees with evolution) is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

2TI 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 
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TheBear

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*** ADMIN HAT ON ***


Can we please discuss these topics with a modicum of dignity and respect? Hurling insults at each other is not only against our rules, it is very unChristlike. We are not here to bash each other over the heads with our own views and beliefs. Nor are we here to belittle those who don't agree with our views. We are all here as equals, sitting at the round table of discussion. Here, each views and beliefs are just as valid and equal as the others'. Here, we should be able to learn from each other, as brothers and sisters in Christ, to edify others, and be edified by others. If anyone here wants to belittle others, hurl insults, or use this fora as a bully-pulpit or lectern, you are on the wrong website.

So please, let's discuss our differences with an honest attitude to be helpful to others, a willingness to learn from others, and the love of Christ towards each other.


*** ADMIN HAT OFF ***
 
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Vance

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Since ArkGuy was wondering what a poll of "church members" here in the US would be regarding origins, I thought this may be instructive, considering that all of these groups added up (excluding the Jewish, obviously) would make up a majority of the Christian "church members", I believe.
 
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Buck72

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Honestly, I have a heck of a hard time finding a denomination to belong to! the church has fallen on its face in so many ways by parting company over issues like the resurrection, the sabbath, veneration of Mary and the saints, requirements for clergy, baptism, communion, prayer, spiritual gifts, etc... it is hard to really know what you are getting into! I started going to a refomed church at 19, knowing very little of the faith but what I read from the word of God. I read the Bible through a few times and learned that the Spirit of God makes known the words of God:

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Everything was pretty clear after that! What is puzzling is the VAST divisions among the Body of Christ.

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 3:3
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

What then is the standard by which we are to be united as one? THE BIBLE!

Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Psa 119:9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to Your word.

Psa 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

As Biblical Christianity becomes less popular as the days get darker, believers that are obsessed with Christ and His word first and foremost will find the necessity to seek fellowship in non-denominational (being careful that in itself doesn't become a denomination!) churches where they can be free of so many of the "isms" that have made the faith a gordian knot of man's interpretations...as opposed to the "pure milk of the word" :sigh:

1Pe 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
 
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Vance

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But Buck, this is self-absorbed nonsense, to put it bluntly. To think that you are the only one to whom the Spirit has explained the Word! Do you think that only you and those who believe exactly as you being led by the Spirit, and NO ONE ELSE is?! After all, they read the same Scripture and believe the same Scripture, but interpret it differently than you, so either you or they must not be led by the Spirit, correct? The list of areas of controversy you gave is very telling. A wide array of Scriptural teachings which devoted Bible-believing Christians differ over. It is not a matter of not believing the Bible, but of believing that it SAYS something different than the next person believes.

I believe the Bible every bit as much as you, that is for certain. Your constant attempt to equate a non-literal interpretation with disbelief is a bit exasperating, if not insulting.

You think you can avoid all the divisions by a simple reversion to the "plain and simple" reading of the text. Nice concept, but it doesn't work. Dozens of different groups of Christians have professed to following a literal plain reading and still come up with different interpretations. Your idea is like the dream of utopian societies that were so popular at one time. Nice concepts, and SO attractive, but it never works out that way.

Now, WHY does the Spirit let us come to such divergent interpretations? I have no idea, but I wish I did. But your self-righteous "those of us who are pure in our reading will need to band together in a brotherhood of Truth as the rest of the Church slides away into iniquity" is an old story that has played itself out throughout Christian history, rarely to good effect in the end.
 
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Buck72

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Vance said:
But Buck, this is self-absorbed nonsense, to put it bluntly. To think that you are the only one to whom the Spirit has explained the Word! Do you think that only you and those who believe exactly as you being led by the Spirit, and NO ONE ELSE is?!
YIKES! :eek: That isn't at all what I was trying to say!

The problem I have with many denominations is (in many cases) the the cultural doctrine has been corrupted over a period of time from what may have been the original intent. Now there some great Christians that run circles around most of us in the Catholic faith, but the Catholic doctrine, for example (not picking on Catholics...just hang with me a sec) has many facets that are refuted Biblically (Papal infallibility, veneration of Mary, prayers to saints, Protestant anathemas, ecumenism, et al). I have many Catholic friends that are dynamo Christians, and they are well aware of the flaws, yet remain faithful to where Christ has them...and that is cool.

My post regarding giving legitimacy to a denominational doctrinal prosition is that:

1. Collectivity doesn't make right, the church is not a democracy.
2. Denominations are the works of man to try and interpret God as best as he sees fit. Obviously there are flaws...look at how many denominations there are!

I will contest to my death that literal is the default modus operandi of God. When He gives a non-literal word, He explains it as a non-literal word: Either visions, parables, or analogy. His default method of speaking is clear and literal.

Look, if the same God that wrote Genesis through the hand of Moses stood in the streets of Jerusalem and spoke to men and women face to face, having been clearly recorded in the Gospels...wouldn't his mode of communication be consistent? He does not speak with illiterate subjectivity.


After all, they read the same Scripture and believe the same Scripture, but interpret it differently than you, so either you or they must not be led by the Spirit, correct?
Does the Spirit give us a smorgasboard of doctrine from which to pick and choose? Of course not. Somebody is wrong. How then do we know who is correct? Let's pause from YEC/TE for a moment and discuss DOCTRINE.

The list of areas of controversy you gave is very telling. A wide array of Scriptural teachings which devoted Bible-believing Christians differ over. It is not a matter of not believing the Bible, but of believing that it SAYS something different than the next person believes.
Agreed. You can believe the Bible, and disagree with what you think it says. The thief on the cross believed, and was saved (having never had a doctrinal stance of his own to discuss in forum other than: "Remember me."). Remember also that the demons believe, and shudder. So what then? How do we know what it says? What does it say? How do we read it?

I'm really asking here, this isn't meant to be a rhetorical question, I really want to know how we can be CERTAIN that we (I) are not messing it up.


I believe the Bible every bit as much as you, that is for certain. Your constant attempt to equate a non-literal interpretation with disbelief is a bit exasperating, if not insulting.
Vance, I do not wish to insult you. I'd like to get to the bottom of how we can know the truth. If what Christ said in John is true:

Joh 8:31-32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

How can we be free if we are ensnared by confusion, doubt, disagreement, and subjective interpretation.


You think you can avoid all the divisions by a simple reversion to the "plain and simple" reading of the text. Nice concept, but it doesn't work.
I know. I wish that it did. It is my belief that is the safest, most fool-proof way to undertake the Word as it offers the least presupposition. Imagine with me (ideal as it may be):

You sit down at a desk with a lamp and a cup of coffee (or tea, whatever) and open the Bible and pray: "Speak Lord". Not what you suppose it to say, but just what it says.

Dozens of different groups of Christians have professed to following a literal plain reading and still come up with different interpretations. Your idea is like the dream of utopian societies that were so popular at one time. Nice concepts, and SO attractive, but it never works out that way.
You're sadly right. Paul said the same thing here:

1Co 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Co 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.

1Co 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."

1Co 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

I contest that Paul was a literalist. As a matter of fact that is my theory. Please feel free to prove me wrong. If Paul, the Apostle then being a literalist, what is our excuse?


Now, WHY does the Spirit let us come to such divergent interpretations? I have no idea, but I wish I did.
I disagree the Spirit has anything to do with division (in the church). Please read:

Mar 3:24-25 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.

1Co 12:25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

Jud 1:19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

Satan divides us, that he may conquer us...we are respond by being armed with the truth of God: TRUTH, RIGHTEOUSNESS, preparation of the GOSPEL, FAITH, SALVATION, and the WORD OF GOD. This is the manner that we can be certain we will resist the enemy's efforts to divide us.

Eph 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

And we have ONE FAITH to collectively preserve:

Eph 4:1-6 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

But your self-righteous "those of us who are pure in our reading will need to band together in a brotherhood of Truth as the rest of the Church slides away into iniquity" is an old story that has played itself out throughout Christian history, rarely to good effect in the end
I am not self-righteous, I'm a death-row convict that has been miraculously pardoned and given the intructions for life. If by referring to the literal manner of interpretation being (what I believe) to be the most certain I infer "spiritual superiority" then allow me to apologize...that is NOT what I'm getting at, and if I'm hitting close to the mark, please don't get mad at me, I'm just the messenger. ;)

Oh BTW, you misquoted me in the underlined portion of your last quote. I NEVER SAID THAT.
 
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Vance

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Buck said:My post regarding giving legitimacy to a denominational doctrinal prosition is that:

1. Collectivity doesn't make right, the church is not a democracy.

Agreed.


2. Denominations are the works of man to try and interpret God as best as he sees fit. Obviously there are flaws...look at how many denominations there are!

Agreed. The point being that many of them believe they are just accepting the "plain reading" of Scripture at face value and still come to disagreements.

I will contest to my death that literal is the default modus operandi of God. When He gives a non-literal word, He explains it as a non-literal word: Either visions, parables, or analogy. His default method of speaking is clear and literal.

Agreed, that we should look first to the literal. But how do you determine whether a given Scripture is a vision, parable or analogy? There are not always explicit references to the fact, such as with the Good Samaritan. Do you look at the style of writing and context? Sure (keeping in mind that the writing style of Genesis one and two are VERY akin to the allegorical writings of the times). Can extra-biblical sources help you make this decision? That is probably where you would say no, but the Church definitely did so regarding Geocentrism, and correctly so.

Look, if the same God that wrote Genesis through the hand of Moses stood in the streets of Jerusalem and spoke to men and women face to face, having been clearly recorded in the Gospels...wouldn't his mode of communication be consistent? He does not speak with illiterate subjectivity.

No, but He would definitely speak with the context, location and audience in mind, not to mention the specific purpose of the statements.



Does the Spirit give us a smorgasboard of doctrine from which to pick and choose? Of course not. Somebody is wrong. How then do we know who is correct? Let's pause from YEC/TE for a moment and discuss DOCTRINE

Agreed, there is not more than one correct view. But I think it would be a mistake to say that the correct view is always arrived at by the same interpretive approach. The truth would not be arrived at if you believed every Scripture was an allegory. And the truth will not be arrived at if you believe every Scripture is meant to be read literally.



Agreed. You can believe the Bible, and disagree with what you think it says.

To pick a nit: I would never "disagree with what I think it says". If I think it says something, then that is what I believe. The point is that I don’t "think it says" everything literally.

The thief on the cross believed, and was saved (having never had a doctrinal stance of his own to discuss in forum other than: "Remember me."). Remember also that the demons believe, and shudder. So what then? How do we know what it says? What does it say? How do we read it?

Tough questions, which have been occupying Biblical scholars and theologians for many thousands of years, even before Christ.

I'm really asking here, this isn't meant to be a rhetorical question, I really want to know how we can be CERTAIN that we (I) are not messing it up.

I don’t think you CAN mess it up with regard to the Salvation message. With regard to the rest, I have no idea who is right and wrong on every point, and can not point to a fool-proof way to interpret.


Vance, I do not wish to insult you. I'd like to get to the bottom of how we can know the truth. If what Christ said in John is true:

Joh 8:31-32 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Well, what is the "Truth" He was talking about here? The detailed specifics on every point of theological controversy, or the ultimate Truth of God’s Redemptive Gift, the Gospel Message?

How can we be free if we are ensnared by confusion, doubt, disagreement, and subjective interpretation.


Well, the question is how ARE we free regardless of the confusing, doubt, disagreement and subjective interpretation on so many points? We ARE free, you know.

I know. I wish that it did. It is my belief that is the safest, most fool-proof way to undertake the Word as it offers the least presupposition. Imagine with me (ideal as it may be):

You sit down at a desk with a lamp and a cup of coffee (or tea, whatever) and open the Bible and pray: "Speak Lord". Not what you suppose it to say, but just what it says.

The problem is that it is an absolute guarantee that if you take five people who are dedicated, sincere, Spirit-led people who do that with the entire Bible, they will STILL interpret things differently.


I contest that Paul was a literalist. As a matter of fact that is my theory. Please feel free to prove me wrong. If Paul, the Apostle then being a literalist, what is our excuse?

What clues do you have that Paul accepted the Scripture (as he knew it at the time) in the most literal, "plain reading" way. We know he was trained as a Pharisee, and IIRC, they did not insist on strict literalness. I could be wrong on this, but that is my recollection. I am not sure of any Scripture which points out which method of interpretation of Scripture (which to him was OT only at that point) he used. Actually, now that I think of it, he seemed to refer to the Scripture more as instructive than literal, but I have not done a study on the subject. Regardless, I would not insist that Paul’s particular interpretive approach would be necessarily correct. He was an apostle through whom God spoke. He must use broken vessels, and so Paul was not, I am sure, perfect in every regard.


I am not self-righteous, I'm a death-row convict that has been miraculously pardoned and given the intructions for life. If by referring to the literal manner of interpretation being (what I believe) to be the most certain I infer "spiritual superiority" then allow me to apologize...that is NOT what I'm getting at, and if I'm hitting close to the mark, please don't get mad at me, I'm just the messenger.

No, there is no feeling of you hitting "close to the mark". I am very comfortable in my approach, if not in my absolute knowledge. But really, if you are saying that everyone, if led by the Spirit properly, would arrive at the proper interpretation, and that you are one of those who is allowing yourself to be properly led, then you are, by definition, saying that all those who don’t interpret the same as you are NOT being properly led by the Spirit.

 
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Svt4Him

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Oh, I get it. Because the leaders of certain denominations make these claims, it reflects the beliefs of all Christians. But wait, wasn't Jesus the ones to show the religious leaders the way? So should we believe Jesus? This is such a lame argument. Because the majority follow something it's true? Let me see, argumentum ad populum?
 
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Svt4Him

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Vance said:
Since ArkGuy was wondering what a poll of "church members" here in the US would be regarding origins, I thought this may be instructive, considering that all of these groups added up (excluding the Jewish, obviously) would make up a majority of the Christian "church members", I believe.
Give a cite for this please. In the US, "Christian" means a nice person.
 
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Vance

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And what does his "church members" mean?

Do you dispute that the members of the denominations listed make up a majority of "church members" (to use ArkGuy's phrase) in the US?

And the point was not to indicate that the majority have it right by definition, but that it is disengenuous to come in here and act as if Christians accepting evolution is some aberration, or minority sect.
 
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Svt4Him

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You'll have to give me a cite for church members who actually go to church. And from those who go to church, what are the membership requirements? John McArthur did research into these stats, and I'll try and find what he had on his site.
 
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