Christ is the end of the Law, no more OT?

[vivalenca]

Hello everyone,

I’d like to add a new discussion topic concerning the Old and the New Testament. In the OT we see the upholding of the Law as the code of ethics as the means for blessings and life (Deut 30:19) for the Jewish people. In the New Testament, however, the emphasis switches to grace instead of punishment, and faith instead of deeds (Eph 2:8). The tension between OT and NT then lies heavily upon the importance of keeping the Law (both oral and written), which in my understanding has lost its precedence to faith in Jesus Christ, who kept and fulfilled the law (Mat 5:17). However, before going further with my position, I’d like to ask what you think about the OT Law. Should it be disregarded or does it still have any value to add to Christians today? As you elaborate you response, keep in mind Paul’s conflicting statements such as “Christ is the end of the Law” (Rom 10:4) and “the law is holy, righteous and good” (Rom 7:12).
thanks,
vivalenca

 

[notreligus]

Hello everyone,

I’d like to add a new discussion topic concerning the Old and the New Testament. In the OT we see the upholding of the Law as the code of ethics as the means for blessings and life (Deut 30:19) for the Jewish people. In the New Testament, however, the emphasis switches to grace instead of punishment, and faith instead of deeds (Eph 2:8). The tension between OT and NT then lies heavily upon the importance of keeping the Law (both oral and written), which in my understanding has lost its precedence to faith in Jesus Christ, who kept and fulfilled the law (Mat 5:17). However, before going further with my position, I’d like to ask what you think about the OT Law. Should it be disregarded or does it still have any value to add to Christians today? As you elaborate you response, keep in mind Paul’s conflicting statements such as “Christ is the end of the Law” (Rom 10:4) and “the law is holy, righteous and good” (Rom 7:12).
thanks,
vivalenca

First we must differentiate between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law. The Ten Commandments reveal God's moral standards. The Mosaic Law was for the nation of Israel. Think of it as sort of a constitution for Israel. When I hear someone say that if you give up grace then you go back to the law, I know that person is making a confusing statement. Gentiles (simply meaning non-Jews) cannot go back under that which they were never under nor was ever meant for them.

Grace is another confusing subject. Jews lived under Grace. However, they had to follow the Mosaic Law, too. Under NT Grace, which is after the finished work of Christ on the cross, we do not follow a set of regulations (the 613 Mitzvoh) as they had to do. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14).

How do the Ten Commandments apply today? The God of the Old Covenant is the God of the New Covenant. God's attributes are revealed throughout the Bible and if you've had classes in Christian Doctrine, then you know that the attributes of God can be found through your study of the Scriptures. Christ summarized the Ten Commandments this way:

Matt 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Matt 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (NASB)

When you follow the leading of the Holy Spirit you will naturally follow God's commandments without having to refer to a list. The Holy Spirit indwells the temples of the new Body of Christ.

 

[czali]

When you follow the leading of the Holy Spirit you will naturally follow God's commandments without having to refer to a list. The Holy Spirit indwells the temples of the new Body of Christ.

That's true but reading the bible helps a lot. And the OT if full of wisdom as to what happened to those who strayed from God's advice. things which will always be applicable.

Christ is the Fulfillment of the law. Not end. Fulfill has a very different meaning than end.

I am pretty sure, due to events in my life, that i was very much under the law prior to being saved. Now of course I don;t sin as much but sometimes.. gotta tell ya.. follow His advice and things will go much better... He gave us the written word for a reason. Perhaps if only to confirm what is written on our hearts.

 

[notreligus]

That's true but reading the bible helps a lot. And the OT if full of wisdom as to what happened to those who strayed from God's advice. things which will always be applicable.

Christ is the Fulfillment of the law. Not end. Fulfill has a very different meaning than end.

I am pretty sure, due to events in my life, that i was very much under the law prior to being saved. Now of course I don;t sin as much but sometimes.. gotta tell ya.. follow His advice and things will go much better... He gave us the written word for a reason. Perhaps if only to confirm what is written on our hearts.

I believe that reading the Bible would help someone be led by the Holy Spirit. I did not encourage anyone to not read the Bible, did I?

 

[Mishayah]

Hello all:

Just something to think about.

Yahshua says, 'I come to fulfill the law and the prophets.'

Anybody ever notice that this is in the present tense, not past tense.

I think part of the problem is that we have confused the 'Law of Moses' with the Law of YHVH. One is external and the other is 'internal.'
For example the Words of the Covenant which are the Ten Commandments were written on tables of stone, whereas the the Law of YHVH is written within the heart and mind. One does not negate the other, both are necessary.
As far as various applications of the Law of Moses, some of these should be no-brainers, such as the laws of quarantine, which very few even attempt to apply today. Also in the Law of Moses the actual definition of food is given. You know clean and unclean as far as meat eaters are concerned, which in Gen 9 YHVH says they who eat meat do so at a heavy cost.
Anyway there are some very applicable laws in the OT which would be very wise for us to practice.
I know, I know folks like to quote 'if you do any you must do all.' Well there was great controversy in the prophets about 'blood sacrifice.' Most of them condemned it. Bizarre isn't it? YHVH Himself says 'I never commanded 'blood sacrifice.'
So aside from that, The Law of Moses really isn't to difficult, as a matter of fact if we knew what it was we'd probably enjoy it.

 

[notreligus]

Hello all:

Just something to think about.

Yahshua says, 'I come to fulfill the law and the prophets.'

Anybody ever notice that this is in the present tense, not past tense.

I think part of the problem is that we have confused the 'Law of Moses' with the Law of YHVH. One is external and the other is 'internal.'
For example the Words of the Covenant which are the Ten Commandments were written on tables of stone, whereas the the Law of YHVH is written within the heart and mind. One does not negate the other, both are necessary.
As far as various applications of the Law of Moses, some of these should be no-brainers, such as the laws of quarantine, which very few even attempt to apply today. Also in the Law of Moses the actual definition of food is given. You know clean and unclean as far as meat eaters are concerned, which in Gen 9 YHVH says they who eat meat do so at a heavy cost.
Anyway there are some very applicable laws in the OT which would be very wise for us to practice.
I know, I know folks like to quote 'if you do any you must do all.' Well there was great controversy in the prophets about 'blood sacrifice.' Most of them condemned it. Bizarre isn't it? YHVH Himself says 'I never commanded 'blood sacrifice.'
So aside from that, The Law of Moses really isn't to difficult, as a matter of fact if we knew what it was we'd probably enjoy it.

The Law of Moses was/is for Israel.

The Body of Christ is to be led by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14). We will naturally follow the Commandments when we are led by the Spirit.

 

[Departed Light]

I believe that we should always look at sacred scripture through the lens of the cross of Christ.

Thou shalt not kill through that lens is still thou shalt not kill. For in killing our neighbor we are not following the law of love.

Thou shalt not eat shrimp through that lens is Christ declared all foods clean (cf Mark 7:19).

Since He did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them, we as Christians do not abolish the OT, but instead see them as fulfilled in Christ.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Mishayah]

Hi all:

I used to wonder somewhat why we all at one time or another got this insane idea that because The Son did this or that then we don't have to, so to speak. For example, He took up His Cross, so we don't have to, even though He said 'take up YOUR cross and follow me. And of course we all know where He went with His cross. So how can anyone look through the 'lens of the cross' unless they have carried that cross to it's ultimate destination.
So in light of that, could it be that because we have failed to understand these things, that we have not at anytime brought for the manifestations of the Son of God.
Sometimes I wonder, just who so obscured the Way that for all intents and purposes, it became lost. Just who told us that because the only begotten Son fulfilled these things that now we don't have to also, inspite of the fact the Messiah said 'come, follow me.' Why have we listened to so many others? I suppose perhaps for many, the Way was just a little too narrow.

Michael

 

[Departed Light]

Hi all:

I used to wonder somewhat why we all at one time or another got this insane idea that because The Son did this or that then we don't have to, so to speak. For example, He took up His Cross, so we don't have to, even though He said 'take up YOUR cross and follow me. And of course we all know where He went with His cross. So how can anyone look through the 'lens of the cross' unless they have carried that cross to it's ultimate destination.
So in light of that, could it be that because we have failed to understand these things, that we have not at anytime brought for the manifestations of the Son of God.
Sometimes I wonder, just who so obscured the Way that for all intents and purposes, it became lost. Just who told us that because the only begotten Son fulfilled these things that now we don't have to also, inspite of the fact the Messiah said 'come, follow me.' Why have we listened to so many others? I suppose perhaps for many, the Way was just a little too narrow.

Michael

Seeing through the lens of the Cross means seeing all of Scripture through His salvific work on the Cross. Because Jesus conquered death by death we don’t for we can’t. We have life in Him and through Him because of what He did.

What does it mean to pick up our cross and follow Him? I have read all sorts of applications on that and I hear all sorts of Christians applying it themselves in various ways. We could open a thread and go for days on that with all sorts of great input from all sorts of folks I am sure.

I don’t think The Way has become lost at all. I hear of Christ crucified preached in all the Churches I visit.

Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly. It’s not that we don’t have to, it’s that we can’t, no matter how hard we try. Jesus intercedes for us at the right hand of the Father, not so we don’t have to but because He is our perfect High Priest.

I don’t know who you heard say that we as Christian don’t have to pick up our cross, I hear the exact opposite from the folks I talk to.

 

[Mishayah]

Hi there:

You said:
I don’t know who you heard say that we as Christian don’t have to pick up our cross, I hear the exact opposite from the folks I talk to.

Sorry didn't mean to dump: You've fellowshipped with a far higher class than I. I heard these things frequently during my time in Tulsa Okla. To hear some of these folks preach you'd think Yahshua came to set up a 'Multilevel Marketing campaign.'

You also said:

What does it mean to pick up our cross and follow Him? I have read all sorts of applications on that and I hear all sorts of Christians applying it themselves in various ways.

Very good question! I don't mean to step on any toes, however I believe most have missed something quite extraordinary at what Yahshua said to James and John when they wanted sit at His left and right hand, 'Are you able to drink of My cup? Are you able to endure my baptism?'
In a typical baptism what is so difficult, in a typical communion service what is so difficult, that one would have to look deep within themselves in order to know that they have what it takes to endure such a terrific and difficult experience?
So Yahshua is referring to something altogether different than what we have previously understood.
I tell you what I believe, not through a line upon line type understanding but through personal testimony and experience.
To each of us there is given if we will except it a personal Gethsemane travail. To each of us there is given and prepared our own personal crucifixion experience. Even though I know this is an inward thing so to speak, still it is no less difficult. And it must be asked for.
I won't go into any lengthy detail but these things are the result of effectual fervent prayer. It nearly seems as if the one undergoing such things is literally transported back in time to the actual events. I know that might sound strange, but it is like you are with Yahshua on the inside experiencing what He experienced. And the experience is quite literally very, very difficult. And as for me I wouldn't trade it for anything.
But I'll tell you what, a person who chooses this will end up with a whole new perspective and whole new understanding of what's what.

Michael

 

[ProfessorJ]

Christ came to fulfill the law. It did not pass away, but we are freed from a contract we could not ourselves fulfill. Only He who is perfect in all can fulfill that which requires perfection.
And He, Christ, acknowledged that we are not bound by the Mosaic Law now. For instance, Matt 15:11- That which enters into the mouth doesn't defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man(WEB). He came so that we might have a hope of heaven, He came as the Great Interceder between us and God.

 

[Rainie]

Hello everyone,

I’d like to add a new discussion topic concerning the Old and the New Testament. In the OT we see the upholding of the Law as the code of ethics as the means for blessings and life (Deut 30:19) for the Jewish people. In the New Testament, however, the emphasis switches to grace instead of punishment, and faith instead of deeds (Eph 2:8). The tension between OT and NT then lies heavily upon the importance of keeping the Law (both oral and written), which in my understanding has lost its precedence to faith in Jesus Christ, who kept and fulfilled the law (Mat 5:17). However, before going further with my position, I’d like to ask what you think about the OT Law. Should it be disregarded or does it still have any value to add to Christians today? As you elaborate you response, keep in mind Paul’s conflicting statements such as “Christ is the end of the Law” (Rom 10:4) and “the law is holy, righteous and good” (Rom 7:12).
thanks,
vivalenca

I believe that we must first recognize WHO JESUS CHRIST is, before we can properly understand the writings of Paul.

Paul can't redefine who Christ is nor can Paul trump Messiah's own words, in my view!

First off, I believe, Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and He took on a specific fleshly life and life style that shouldn't be over looked but so often is .

Jesus Christ on Earth is/was:
A Jew, of the tribe of Judah, circumsised the 8th day, born under the Mosaic Law.
He taught in Synagogues on the 7th day Sabbath and at the Temple.
He taught from the Old Testament and always upheld God's Law.
He is/was sinless.
He was likely concieved during the wintertime perhaps around the time of the Jewish celebration of "The Feast of Dedication" (Festival of lights and He celebrated the Feast of Dedication in His lifetime, John 10).
He was likely born during the fall during the Biblical Feast of Tabernacles.
He died at the Biblical celebration of Passover and rose on the Biblical Holy Day of First fruits.
His Holy Spirit came at the Biblical "Feast of weeks" (Pentecost).
He was buried in a Jewish cemetery by a Jewish man according to Jewish customs.
And He was mocked and charged with being "The King of the Jews" upon the cross.
IMO, We must remember these Scriptural truths as we we disscuss the New Testament and be careful not to strip away Jesus' Jewishness and identity and replace it with something different.

Because, Scripture tells us...

Mal. 3:6 God does not change.
Colossians 2:9 confirms that Jesus is the GOD in bodily form.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and FOREVER.
Deut 4:2 tells us that no one should add to or take away from God's Law.
Deut 12:32 also says to not add to or take away from God's Law.
Proverbs 30:5-6 also says that God's words are PURE and to, not add to them.

In light of all of this:
We must ask a very basic question.

Does Paul teach contrary to everything Jesus was/is and will forever be and preach that Jesus came to abolish, His Own Law, given to Moses on Mt. Sinai, in the OT?
Did Jesus "add to or take away from" God's Law given to Moses on Mt. Sinai? Is this what Paul preached?

In my opinion... No.
Paul both kept and taught according to God's Law.
I believe what Paul taught against is the Laws, commandments, doctrines and tradtions of men.

So what do we make of a verse like this:

Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The key to understanding this apparent contradiction is to understand what the word "end" means in Greek.

The Greek word used here "telos" which has the following possible definitions:

1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)


Looking at the entirety of Scripture from Genesis to Maps.
And knowing WHO Messiah was/is and forevermore will be...
I choose to believe that Paul used "telos" here in reference to Christ being the aim and purpose of the Law (Like the Goal of God's Law) for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Once you reach a goal, aim, purpose of a race and rip threw the finish line, do you cease to ever run again? No.
Once you reach the goal, aim, purpose of your education and receieve your diploma, do you cease to ever learn again? No.
Once you reach the goal, aim or purpose of where your going (say to a resturant) do you cease to ever go anywhere again? No.
If you set a goal to lose 15 pounds and you reach that aim, purpose, goal do you then suddenly over eat and forget ALL that was accomplished? No.

With this train of thought in mind...
Once we reach the goal, aim purpose of Mosaic Law do we cease to obey it, simply because the true meaning of it has been revealed in Messiah?
I believe No, Mosaic Law is as Paul says in Romans 7:12, Holy, Just and Good and anyone can keep it "if" they want to, in love for santification NOT Salvation.

The only problem with keeping God's Laws is when one thinks that their SALVATION is based upon their works. This is BAD doctrine and exactly what Paul taught against.

Circumsision to be SAVED.
Obedience to be SAVED.
These are BAD, dooming, binding doctrines OF MEN!

The only thing that saves anyone is Faith, by God's good grace and mercy! Always has been the only thing that saves and it always will be only thing that saves!

Blessings - Rain

 

[GailS2406]

Wow Rainie, what a wonderful discourse. The biggest mistake we can make is to 'think' that the God of the OT is different than the God of the NT. Perish the thought. As you so beautifully said, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law...since none before Christ was able to fully obey, none since have been able to do so. The Law is the mesuring stick and we are still SO FAR SHORT. Thank God for redemption in Christ and grace...we still need it everyday. Praise the Lord.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Romans 13



9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.



So how i read it is ..



A commandment is a commandment to avoid people getting hurt .


Commandments were given out of a premise of love



as time passes the essence of a command may still stand . but the application may cause more harm than the initial intended good .


as it is written . eventually all these prophecies and human words will disappear but love will remain .

 

[Seagal]

I believe in OT, but sometimes I consider that OT and NT are one and the same.

 

[Apollos1]

Rainie -

The faith that came when Christ came put an end to the old law - that law was no longer needed. Let’s take a look…
<<<>>>

Rainie (his remarks in black) said - IMO, We must remember these Scriptural truths as we we disscuss the New Testament and be careful not to strip away Jesus' Jewishness and identity and replace it with something different.

This is "posturing". I don’t believe anyone here is attempting to forget who Jesus is. The fact that He was a Jew is not what saves us. Rather, let us remember what He did.
<<<>>>

Because, Scripture tells us...

Mal. 3:6 God does not change.
Colossians 2:9 confirms that Jesus is the GOD in bodily form.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and FOREVER.
Deut 4:2 tells us that no one should add to or take away from God's Law.
Deut 12:32 also says to not add to or take away from God's Law.
Proverbs 30:5-6 also says that God's words are PURE and to, not add to them.

Don’t confuse the unchangeable nature and character of God with His unfolding plan for man’s salvation. Noah was told to build an ark to save his household – preserving mankind. Abraham was told to depart for another country not knowing where he was going – the start of nation through which the Saviour would come.
Joseph was sold into slavery - which would ultimately preserve his family and that nation. The point being that what God’s word was for some beforehand is not the word for us today.

These “differences” in God’s word are not matters of changing or adding to God’s word, but rather parts of progression in the revelation of the plan of God to ultimately bring salvation to all who would have faith in Christ. Things progressed and things changed as God chose to change them – but God never changes.

For over 2,000 years God spoke to man directly (Noah, Abraham, others). After this time God chose to speak to a nation (Israel), through a prophet (Moses – and then later through many more prophets), one nation to which He gave the law. Now God speaks to the world through His son Jesus Christ – see Hebrews 1:1. God never changes but the way He does things has!
<<<>>>

Does Paul teach contrary to everything Jesus was/is and will forever be and preach that Jesus came to abolish, His Own Law, given to Moses on Mt. Sinai, in the OT?

It was always the “aim” or “purpose” of Jesus to come and save the world – Ephesians 1:4. This salvation was something that the law given at Sinai (given to Israel only – Deut. 5:2-3) could never do. Why would you find it contrary that this law would be eliminated and replaced with a law that can provide that salvation to all?
<<<>>>

Did Jesus "add to or take away from" God's Law given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

If animal sacrifices were acceptable for Israel, and later the sacrifice of Christ is acceptable for the world – is this okay??? It was always God’s plan to accomplish this salvation through Christ – see 1 Peter 1:9-12.

That old law made NO provision for salvation, nevertheless faith in Christ.
<<<>>>


Is this what Paul preached?

Yes, this IS what Paul preached because Christ made new things possible with His death on the cross. We have already seen that God in His providence has changed His message, His messenger(s), and even the audience for the message. In Romans 7:4-6 Paul tells us that we have been made “dead” to the law through Christ – we have been “discharged” from the law.
<<<>>>


Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The key to understanding this apparent contradiction is to understand what the word "end" means in Greek.

The Greek word used here "telos" which has the following possible definitions:
1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

I believe Paul himself best explains what he meant when he used “telos”.

Galatians 3:19 - the law was added because of transgressions - UNTIL Christ should come. The law was temporary addition.
Galatians 3:24 – the law was a “guardian”/tutor – to bring us to Christ. It was given for this purpose.
Galatians 3:25 – Now that faith has come – we are no longer UNDER that guardian. We now have Christ! The law served the purpose for which it had been given.

This is why Paul can also say…
Ephesians 2:15 – in the flesh Christ abolished the law… and…
Colossians 2:14 – that the law was “nailed to the cross”.

Christ has come. Faith is a reality. The law is abolished having served the purpose for which it was given. When you know WHY the law was given and WHAT its purpose was, the “end to which it relates” is very easy to understand.
<<<>>>

Once you reach a goal, aim, purpose of a race and rip threw the finish line, do you cease to ever run again? No.

Not necessarily – this would depend on many external factors so this comparison is flawed. Ask yourself how many times Christ must die on the cross. Once – right?
Once accomplished this never has to be done again – Heb. 7:27.
<<<>>>

…Mosaic Law is as Paul says in Romans 7:12, Holy, Just and Good and anyone can keep it "if" they want to, in love for santification NOT Salvation.

Paul’s point in Romans 7 is to show that to live by TWO laws is the
equivalent to “spiritual adultery”, and he uses a marriage analogy to
make this point. Verse 4 – “we have been made dead to the law” and verse 6 “you were discharged from the law…”. You have no context to make the statement that you made above.

Further, in Galatians 3:11 Paul says the righteous shall live by faith following in verse 13 that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. Keeping the “law of Moses” is not an option!
<<<>>>

The only thing that saves anyone is Faith, by God's good grace and mercy! Always has been the only thing that saves and it always will be only thing that saves!

You may want to elaborate, but “faith only” never saved anyone. This man-made belief is something that the Bible knows nothing about The blessings of God have always been predicated upon faithful obedience to His will – see Hebrews 11 again. Today, that “obedience of faith” must be “in Christ”.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Sometimes it is helpful for me to remember what Jesus did was first for the Jews and then for the Gentiles . and now there is no more jew or gentile but Christ is all and is in all . and there is no favoritism with Him . it is all about trust . expectancy and Love .

 

[Rainie]

Rainie -

The faith that came when Christ came put an end to the old law - that law was no longer needed. Let’s take a look…
<<<>>>

Rainie (his remarks in black) said - IMO, We must remember these Scriptural truths as we we disscuss the New Testament and be careful not to strip away Jesus' Jewishness and identity and replace it with something different.

This is "posturing". I don’t believe anyone here is attempting to forget who Jesus is. The fact that He was a Jew is not what saves us. Rather, let us remember what He did.
<<<>>>

Because, Scripture tells us...

Mal. 3:6 God does not change.
Colossians 2:9 confirms that Jesus is the GOD in bodily form.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus is the same yesterday, today and FOREVER.
Deut 4:2 tells us that no one should add to or take away from God's Law.
Deut 12:32 also says to not add to or take away from God's Law.
Proverbs 30:5-6 also says that God's words are PURE and to, not add to them.

Don’t confuse the unchangeable nature and character of God with His unfolding plan for man’s salvation. Noah was told to build an ark to save his household – preserving mankind. Abraham was told to depart for another country not knowing where he was going – the start of nation through which the Saviour would come.
Joseph was sold into slavery - which would ultimately preserve his family and that nation. The point being that what God’s word was for some beforehand is not the word for us today.

These “differences” in God’s word are not matters of changing or adding to God’s word, but rather parts of progression in the revelation of the plan of God to ultimately bring salvation to all who would have faith in Christ. Things progressed and things changed as God chose to change them – but God never changes.

For over 2,000 years God spoke to man directly (Noah, Abraham, others). After this time God chose to speak to a nation (Israel), through a prophet (Moses – and then later through many more prophets), one nation to which He gave the law. Now God speaks to the world through His son Jesus Christ – see Hebrews 1:1. God never changes but the way He does things has!
<<<>>>

Does Paul teach contrary to everything Jesus was/is and will forever be and preach that Jesus came to abolish, His Own Law, given to Moses on Mt. Sinai, in the OT?

It was always the “aim” or “purpose” of Jesus to come and save the world – Ephesians 1:4. This salvation was something that the law given at Sinai (given to Israel only – Deut. 5:2-3) could never do. Why would you find it contrary that this law would be eliminated and replaced with a law that can provide that salvation to all?
<<<>>>

Did Jesus "add to or take away from" God's Law given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

If animal sacrifices were acceptable for Israel, and later the sacrifice of Christ is acceptable for the world – is this okay??? It was always God’s plan to accomplish this salvation through Christ – see 1 Peter 1:9-12.

That old law made NO provision for salvation, nevertheless faith in Christ.
<<<>>>


Is this what Paul preached?

Yes, this IS what Paul preached because Christ made new things possible with His death on the cross. We have already seen that God in His providence has changed His message, His messenger(s), and even the audience for the message. In Romans 7:4-6 Paul tells us that we have been made “dead” to the law through Christ – we have been “discharged” from the law.
<<<>>>


Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The key to understanding this apparent contradiction is to understand what the word "end" means in Greek.

The Greek word used here "telos" which has the following possible definitions:
1) end
a) termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
b) the end
1) the last in any succession or series
2) eternal
c) that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
d) the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
2) toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

I believe Paul himself best explains what he meant when he used “telos”.

Galatians 3:19 - the law was added because of transgressions - UNTIL Christ should come. The law was temporary addition.
Galatians 3:24 – the law was a “guardian”/tutor – to bring us to Christ. It was given for this purpose.
Galatians 3:25 – Now that faith has come – we are no longer UNDER that guardian. We now have Christ! The law served the purpose for which it had been given.

This is why Paul can also say…
Ephesians 2:15 – in the flesh Christ abolished the law… and…
Colossians 2:14 – that the law was “nailed to the cross”.

Christ has come. Faith is a reality. The law is abolished having served the purpose for which it was given. When you know WHY the law was given and WHAT its purpose was, the “end to which it relates” is very easy to understand.
<<<>>>

Once you reach a goal, aim, purpose of a race and rip threw the finish line, do you cease to ever run again? No.

Not necessarily – this would depend on many external factors so this comparison is flawed. Ask yourself how many times Christ must die on the cross. Once – right?
Once accomplished this never has to be done again – Heb. 7:27.
<<<>>>

…Mosaic Law is as Paul says in Romans 7:12, Holy, Just and Good and anyone can keep it "if" they want to, in love for santification NOT Salvation.

Paul’s point in Romans 7 is to show that to live by TWO laws is the
equivalent to “spiritual adultery”, and he uses a marriage analogy to
make this point. Verse 4 – “we have been made dead to the law” and verse 6 “you were discharged from the law…”. You have no context to make the statement that you made above.

Further, in Galatians 3:11 Paul says the righteous shall live by faith following in verse 13 that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. Keeping the “law of Moses” is not an option!
<<<>>>

The only thing that saves anyone is Faith, by God's good grace and mercy! Always has been the only thing that saves and it always will be only thing that saves!

You may want to elaborate, but “faith only” never saved anyone. This man-made belief is something that the Bible knows nothing about The blessings of God have always been predicated upon faithful obedience to His will – see Hebrews 11 again. Today, that “obedience of faith” must be “in Christ”.

Here are just a few samples of what God commanded to be EVERLASTING, FOREVER, THROUGHOUT THE GENERATIONS, PERPETUAL etc.
Where does God tell us HIS LAW is temporary until a Messiah is revealed, this would've been an easy enough point to make but God NEVER states that these things are temporary, until Jesus Christ is revealed?

Did God lie?

Exodus 12:14
‘So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance.

Exodus 12:17
So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance.

Exodus 31:13
“Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Exodus 31:16
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Leviticus 23:31
You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.



In prophecy we are told that we will all keep the "Feast of Tabernacles," and if people choose not to keep the Feast then there will be a consequence for that choice.
How is this possible if your understanding is correct and Jesus ended, abolished and nailed "The Feast of Tabernacles" to the cross.

Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Does God flip-flop in the end and revert back to Old Testament Feasts or is it possible that the Law is not abolished, ended and nailed to the cross?

Blessings Rain

 

[Rainie]

I believe in OT, but sometimes I consider that OT and NT are one and the same.

There was never an Old Testament and a New Testament to begin with. Mankind decided to divide the two and teach that one supercieded the other.
Keep considering that the Bible is one Book, consisitant from beginning to end, God does NOT contradict Himself, lie or change.
Doctrines that consist of hypocrasy, contradictions etc. are no good!
If God/Jesus says something is FOREVER, EVERLASTING, ETERNAL, PERPETUAL and THROUGH OUT the Generations...
He means exactly that... BELIEVE HIM!

Trust Him and KNOW that He says what He means and He means what He says!

I find it's not so much about...
"What WOULD Jesus do."
BUT
"What DID Jesus do"

I trust that Jesus does not change and that He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow... He's the only reliable thing I know.
He will not lie and He keeps His promises and Covenants, even when we fail!!!!

Thank Goodness!!!!

So, For instance,
Jesus kept Passover during His lifetime on Earth, He will keep it in the Kingdom to come.
Jesus kept the Sabbath on Earth, He will keep the Sabbath when He returns.
Jesus ate Biblically Kosher, He will always eat Biblically Kosher in the His Father's Kingdom.

It's not confusing, hypocrital, contractory etc.

It's very SIMPLE, CONSISTANT and TRUE... Take it or leave it.

Blessings Rain

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think an even better question is: what is Jesus doing right now?