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"Christ is punished instead of us"

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MariaRegina

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This quote was taken from an essay that was written by Nicodemus' priest concerning Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ:

"The focus of the West since the schism
is on the extreme suffering and the vicarious
sacrifice (Christ is punished instead of us).
Orthodoxy focuses, as did the early Church, on
Christ’s sacrifice as His triumphant victory for us
against sin, death and the devil."

The idea of a punishing God... that someone had to die to calm the wrath of God ... is not Orthodox teaching.

Is this Calvinism?

The book Common Ground (available through Light and Life Publishing) mentions the idea of a punishing God in one of its chapters as a protestant error. Perhaps we could discuss this chapter to better understand this western concept and why it is not considered Orthodox teaching.
 

isshinwhat

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From the Catholic Encyclopedia article Atonement, Doctrine of the :



Well, here's my initial contribution.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Another book is Christus Victor by Gustav Aulen that should be brought up at this point. Aulen was a Swedish Lutheran Bishop and his book is a classic, and was one of the signposts on the way to Orthodoxy for me. The atonement in the West seems to be legal, as opposed to how we view it as a victory over death. Christ died to defeat death, not as punishment.
Jeff the Finn
 
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countrymousenc

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Is there no legal or forensic aspect to Christ's atonement?


How does the perception that Christ took upon Himself what we deserve contradict or oppose His victory over death, and ours? I agree that to treat Christ's death as purely forensic, as some (but not all) Calvinists do is wrong, but... I don't understand completely throwing it out in light of what the Holy Scriptures say. Can God not love His enemies and yet mete out what they deserve and have willingly chosen? (He is infinitely greater than we.)

I don't understand how saying that He endured what we deserve somehow
 
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Suzannah

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I would say that yes, in short it is Calvinist, but it is also Lutheran in terms of how Martin viewed humanity (totally depraved. he engaged in a lot of self flagellation (physical) in order to atone for his own sin.)

I would say that in general, yes, it is a Protestant teaching overall.
I can't wait to hear what others have to say regardingthe Orthodox view. I simply want to confirm that this is indeed a basic Protestant teaching, although not limited to Calvinism.
 
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Patristic

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Don't confuse the idea of penal satisfaction with substitutionary atonement. The Western Churchmen weren't grasping at straws when they argued for a legal, forensic, and substitutionary nature of Christ's death. The concept is very common throughout the Scriptures. Look at the Levitical sacrifices prescribed by Yahweh in the Torah. Animals were sacrificed by the High priest for the forgiveness of sins. Can anyone honestly tell me that they can read the book of Hebrews and not see the sacrificial and priestly nature of Christ's death where His blood covers our sins?
 
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countrymousenc

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Thank you, Patristic! (big sigh of relief).
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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(Sorry if I should not be posting here, but I do not think I am braking forum rules as I am not disagreing with and debating what Orthodox members have said - please delete this if I am wrong)

But there is deffinately a problem in Protestant churches of at least getting the emphasis wrong. I go to a conservative evangelical Anglican church and in most respects I think the theology and teaching is superb. But on this issue I feel they make the mistake being discussed in this thread. The way they put the atonement on a student conference I went to a couple of years ago was basically "sin requires punnishment, a just God cannot let sin go unpunnished. Therefore Jesus took the punnishment we deserved, so God could still be just by punnishing sin and forgive us." Of course this was not all that was said but this was stressed as the crucial point of the atonement. It really troubled me at the time because that did not seem particularly just, but I just accepted it then. It was only reading an article here, posted by an Orthodox - I think Oblio, that I realised that the key was that the Cross was a cleasing sacrifice that healed the corruption caused by the Fall. Jesus was punnished, but only as a result of having our sins laid on him, as the OT sacrifices and particularly the scapegoat had the sins transfered to them in the laying on of hands and confessing of sins. It is the cleansing and healing by the blood of the lamb, not the punnishment itself, that is the main point. I was much more comfortable and secure in my faith after this, and I am not sure I thanked Oblio at the time - but I do now if he is still around

God bless,
YN.
 
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MariaRegina

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Dear YN:

Just received this email and thought you might find it interesting. Personally I don't agree with everything Father Panagiotes says here, but he does point to a few historical abuses. Does the movie really deny Christ's divinity?

Elizabeth

---

From: Fr. Panagiotes Carras
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:51:17 -0500
Subject: Gibson's Passion


Mel Gibson’s movie which revolves around the final hours of our Saviour, is a total deviation from the Faith of the Church which holds the Holy Cross as the symbol of our Lord’s victory over death. The Cross is the banner of triumph. This is how it was revealed to Saint Constantine and this is the belief of true Christians throughout history. From East to West and North to South the Holy Cross was seen as the “Cross of Glory”. Caedmon’s “The Dream of the Rood” and the “Ruthwell Cross” in Scotland are vivid examples of this Faith.
http://www.flsouthern.edu/eng/abruce/rood/ROODTEXT/MODERN~1.HTM

Gibson’s film details the last 12 hours of the Lord’s life in excruciatingly violent images. The Passion of our Lord is separated from the Birth, Life, Resurrection and Glorification of our Saviour. The inspiration for this movie was revealed in an interview that appears on the "Inside the Vatican" web site. Gibson said that the script was based on the writings of two mystics, Anne Catherine Emmerich (1774-1824) and Mary of Agreda (1602-1665). He was in his library praying about making a movie about the Passion and Emmerich’s book "fell off the shelf" into his hand. He saw this as a sign and used these visions as the basis for his film. Cf. http://www.passion-movie.com/promote/book.html . These visions are based on the blasphemous theology of the Middle Ages which put the violent death of the Lord at the center of faith. The death on the Cross of our Saviour was the price paid to God for the sin of Adam and Eve which all people inherited. The enormity of the sin required this horrific punishment. This introduced self-flagellation, stigmata and other "mortifications" into piety. The Glory of the Cross was replaced by the Theology of punishment, satisfaction, merits and indulgences. Gibson’s movie presents the blasphemous portrayal of the Lord not as the Victor but as the victim. The depiction of our Saviour as a man abandoned by God denies the Divinity of the Son of God and the true meaning of the Holy Cross.

We do not need Gibson’s movie or any other theatrical presentation to teach us our Faith. The Gospels, the writings of the Saints, the Hymns of the Church and the Holy Ikons give us the correct instruction on the Holy Cross, the Passion and Resurrection of our Lord. No actor, who one day portrays Christ and the next day portrays a criminal or some other immoral person, can teach us our Faith. Theatrical portrayals of sacred subjects cannot depict the Divine nature of these subjects. This is why we have ikons and not photographs and portraits of our Saviour. Images leave a mark on the soul. Holy Ikons bring Grace and peace. Gibson’s film can only pollute the soul with its violence and denial of the Divinity of our Saviour.
 
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Lotar

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Martin Luther's extreme penances were before he came to understand that his salvation was from God's grace and not any of his works.

When it comes to the total depravity, it is a pretty universal Protestant belief. But, it refers to the state of a person's will, not anything to do with atonement. It means that a person's will is totally bent away from God, and that only by His regenerative grace can we come to love Him. In simplest terms that is. The "nobody con come to me, lest the Father draws him" verse comes to mind.

The death of Christ is the death of sin, and His resurrection is the life of righteousness; for by his death He has made satisfaction for our sin, and by His resurrection He has bestowed righteousness on us. His death, then, does not merely signify but actually makes the forgiveness of sin, as a completely sufficient satisfaction. And His resurrection is not merely a pledge of our righteousness but actually effects it in us, if we believe it, and is its cause.
-Martin Luther
 
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Patristic

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Nice post. I think it is a mistake when people argue that God punished Jesus on the cross; This argument is no more valid than saying that God poured out His wrath and punishment on the goats and bulls that were sacrificed under the Old Covenant. Those sacrifices were imperfect sin offerings that made forgiveness of sins possible, but couldn't deal with the problem and power of sin in our lives. Christ's sacrifice was a perfect sin offering that atones for our sins, and His resurrection crushed the powers of sin and death which allow us to live a life victorious over sin.
 
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Benedicta00

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Pretty early on in the article, the author writes, "If the Crucifixion was the only means God could find to redeem us, then he must be limited in his power and wisdom....God is God, and his wisdom and might know no bounds. Of course he could have found another way to save us." This might sounds logical on the surface, but in fact this oversimplification ignores another of God's infinite attributes, which is his justice, and justice says, "You don't accept apples when oranges are due." What is the penalty for sin? Death and separation from God. What must the sinless substitute experience to satisfy justice? Death and separation from God. Thus, Christ's death and separation from God on the cross were absolutely necessary for the accomplishment of our salvation.

Can you explain this?

This is from a private e mail that I received from a Calvin type believer who is not part of this forum who thinks this coincides with his belief of substitutionary atonement. This person thinks the EO supports him. Do they?

PS, Catholics do not view Christ as punishment for sin. If you believe this is what we believe, then that I an error. We are not lumped in with the Protestants. They disagree with us.
 
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Benedicta00

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Sorry I forgot to include the source of who wrote this.

"I know you and Michelle (whom I've copied on this since we all haven't
gotten together for a chat in quite some time) were aghast at my "strange
notion" that Christ experienced separation from (i.e., loss of fellowship with)
the Father upon his death, but since our discussion I happened to read The
Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos Ware
, and he practically parrots my
position. So, it's not as strange a notion as you might think."
 
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Oblio

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Thus, Christ's death and separation from God on the cross were absolutely necessary for the accomplishment of our salvation.

Can you explain this?

I don't think I can ...

Do some Protestants think that only the human Christ descended . TO do so would violate basic orthodox beliefs on the nature of Christ, not to mention that it would be hard for Christ to defeat death by death if He were separated in nature at His Crucifixion :o

PS, Catholics do not view Christ as punishment for sin. If you believe this is what we believe, then that I an error. We are not lumped in with the Protestants. They disagree with us.

Good to know, another bit of common ground between us
 
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Benedicta00

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Oblio,


That is exactly what this person thinks happened on the cross, that God forsaked Christ and Christ went to hell and was judged righteous and was risen because of that.

I wrote back to this person letting him know that I did not think the EO would agree with his interpretation of what he cited.

What the bishop wrote, that isn't EO teaching it is?
 
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Oblio

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Could you get a cite from him (Ch, para, page ...) so I can see what Bp KALLISTOS actually wrote.

CAlvin type believer said:
... and he [Bp. KALLISTOS] practically parrots my position.

reeks of prooftexting
 
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TWells

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Howdy,


The idea that the Levitical sacrifices took a punishment for us was completely alien to Jewish thought of the time. The OT sacrifices were a means of reconciliation and the theology behind it is pretty complicated. In fact most scholars today are still not completely sure as to what the many various sacrifices actually meant. The most dominant theme seems to be purification and identification. Which is most dominant as well in the NT especially Hebrews. I would never deny "the sacrificial and priestly nature of Christ's death where His blood covers our sins" present in Hebrews I just dont see a legal or penal edge to it.

I would agree though that there are some streams of penal though in the Bible especially in the Servant Songs of Dutero Isaiah. For instance:


Although one could argue these could be read either way a major theme in this era was that Israel would go through some kind of punishment to end the Exile as Lamentations 4:22 states:

The punishment of your iniquity, O daughter of Zion, is accomplished;
he will keep you in exile no longer;
but your iniquity, O daughter of Edom, he will punish;
he will uncover your sins.

Of course a lot of this depends on what type of hermanuetic you use and for the West the "literal sense" is now dominant. In the end though the NT doesnt portray the atonement this way.

I tried to start a discussion with protestants in the general theology forum but no ones responded.

http://www.christianforums.com/t97074
 
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TWells

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"The depiction of our Saviour as a man abandoned by God denies the Divinity of the Son of God and the true meaning of the Holy Cross."

I cant believe a Priest actually said this. Christ's abandonment plays a big role in Mark: abandoned by the diciples, betrayed by Judas, denied by Peter, accused by the Priests, mocked by the Sanhedrin and the Roman soldeirs and rejected by the crowd in favor of a criminal and all this peaks with his cry "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" in which He feels abandoned by the Father.

Some argue that Mark wanted to point to the triumphal ending of Ps. 22, which I wouldnt deny is part of it but if that was the point the ending would have been quoted instead.

Some have never been comfortable with the very human Jesus that was "sorrowful unto death" in the Garden and to deny this is to deny his humanity which was like us in every way except sin. Of course we know from the Gospels that God didnt abandon Christ and for those who have actually seen the movie they know the film portrays it the same way.
 
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