Christ is NOT God?.....

[PraiseReborn]

But what are you basing that on? The bible states Christ claims of divinity a number of times. However, this is just one single section which claims otherwise. I base my beliefs on the bible, so where do you get your claims?

I hate to sound like I'm arguing but I really like proof when studying something.

 

[PraiseReborn]

Jesus Christ is NOT God himself.

But what are you basing that on? The bible states Christ claims of divinity a number of times. However, this is just one single section which claims otherwise. I base my beliefs on the bible, so where do you get your claims?

I hate to sound like I'm arguing but I really like proof when studying something.

 

[PraiseReborn]

But what are you basing that on? The bible states Christ claims of divinity a number of times. However, this is just one single section which claims otherwise. I base my beliefs on the bible, so where do you get your claims?

I hate to sound like I'm arguing but I really like proof when studying something.

Sorry for the double post. I'm quite the dork.

 

[PaladinValer]

Jesus Christ was of two natures: Divine and Human.

The Divine side couldn't be tempted. The Human side could.

Because each nature cooperated with each other, Jesus could be tempted, but couldn't sin.

Very easy...see the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (the 4th Ecumenical Council) for more information.

 

[PraiseReborn]

Jesus Christ was of two natures: Divine and Human.

The Divine side couldn't be tempted. The Human side could.

Because each nature cooperated with each other, Jesus could be tempted, but couldn't sin.

Very easy...see the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (the 4th Ecumenical Council) for more information.

Ahhhhhhh, that's a big help.

But do you know if that would make Christ God or not? You can tell I'm a new Christian and I've so many questions.

 

[depthdeception]

But do you know if that would make Christ God or not? You can tell I'm a new Christian and I've so many questions.

It is difficult in some ways, for while the Scriptures say that God cannot be tempted to evil, Christ as God clearly was tempted. It is the mystery of the Incarnation, in the same way that God can become human.

 

[depthdeception]

Jesus Christ was of two natures: Divine and Human.

The Divine side couldn't be tempted. The Human side could.

Because each nature cooperated with each other, Jesus could be tempted, but couldn't sin.

Very easy...see the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (the 4th Ecumenical Council) for more information.

It's actually not quite that simple. While Christ was two natures (human and divine), these two natures were joined in hypostatic nature in one person. Therefore, that which happens to the person affects the whole person, not some compartmentalized nature. The way you phrase it, you appear to be suggesting that Christ was two separate persons, not two natures bound in hypostatic union. Therefore, the "easy" divisions which you make between the two is inappropriate and borders on many of the heretical viewpoints (such as Nestorianism) which Chalcedon sought to overcome.

Here is the Chalcedonian Creed:

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;
truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;
consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;
in all things like unto us, without sin;
begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;
one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;
the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;
as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.If one is to take the clear language of the creed in a straightforward manner, it is not possible of suggesting that temptation could only occur in the isolation of one nature without impacting the other. To do so would be to create two persons, not two natures.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

In Hebrews 4:15 ( I believe ) it says that Christ was subject to temptation Himself. Yet, in James I think, it says that God can not be tempted. Would anyone know if the word "tempted" was a mistranslation, or perhaps I'm reading out of context?

I do feel in my heart that Christ is the Son and God, but I truly wonder about that passage.

"I and my Father are one."

John 10:30

 

[AvgJoe]

In Hebrews 4:15 ( I believe ) it says that Christ was subject to temptation Himself. Yet, in James I think, it says that God can not be tempted. Would anyone know if the word "tempted" was a mistranslation, or perhaps I'm reading out of context?

I do feel in my heart that Christ is the Son and God, but I truly wonder about that passage.

Jesus' temptation: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/obj_Jesus_sin.htm
If Jesus is not God then explain... http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesusquestions.htm

 

[PraiseReborn]

Hopefully you'll overlook my odd way of stating things:

So it's like mixing two paints on a palette. Red is red and yellow is yellow, both can mix to become one yet they're made up of the two seperates?

I think I'm beginning to understand.

 

[depthdeception]

Hopefully you'll overlook my odd way of stating things:

So it's like mixing two paints on a palette. Red is red and yellow is yellow, both can mix to become one yet they're made up of the two seperates?

I think I'm beginning to understand.

You're on the right track, but it is still a bit more complex (in a good way!). When you mix two paints, you come up with a different color. Christ's two nature were not mixed--rather, they were united in what is called a "hypostatic" union in one person. So then, the two natures did not combine to make a new one--they were held in union--yet distinct--in the one person of Christ.

Hope this helps.

 

[PraiseReborn]

.....So in the way that the right kind of oil will mix with water to an extent, yet still be seperate whilst intermingling.

Now things start to make sense. It just gets so confusing when questions get put in front of such a denominationally-diverse group as we are. I tend to lean only on the bible but I've heard other denominations have additional creeds and ideals and such. Sometimes I don't know which end is up.

 

[Rafael]

Jesus is not the Father, but they are One. Jesus is not the Spirit, but they are One. Jesus felt in the flesh because He is God in the flesh. He learned obedience in the flesh, just like us as men, because He came in the flesh of man. The Father is a Spirit and it is said that we live and have our being in Him. Jesus is God in the flesh, who now has a glorified body of flesh like we, too, will someday have, as we "will be like Him." The Holy Spirit is that which lives inside us now, given and sent by Jesus as a comforter to guide us into all truth. All are God yet have seperate offices and manifestations to us as men - the creatures of His hand.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ac 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Col.2:9 For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,
10 and you are complete through your union with Christ. He is the Lord over every ruler and authority in the universe.

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

 

[depthdeception]

.....So in the way that the right kind of oil will mix with water to an extent, yet still be seperate whilst intermingling.

Yes, that is getting closer to the truth of it. Just remember, though, that it is importatant to retain the mystery of it. Although analogys are helpful, there is really no way to describe the inexplicable union of God and humanity in the person of Christ--I suppose this is reason we have faith!

I really appreciate your questions and searching!

Now things start to make sense. It just gets so confusing when questions get put in front of such a denominationally-diverse group as we are. I tend to lean only on the bible but I've heard other denominations have additional creeds and ideals and such. Sometimes I don't know which end is up.

As a Christian, it is important to affirm the authority of Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience for providing us with knowledge of the truth. For example, while the definition of Christ's Incarnate nature is derived from Scripture, church tradition (the faithful reflecting upon the self-revelation of God in Christ) has explicated what is only implicit in the Scriptures.

 

[PaladinValer]

Ahhhhhhh, that's a big help.

Glad I could help.

That's a very common problem you had, even amongst "experienced" Christians. My advice is to study the various heresies. Why? Because then you can know what not to believe in.

Knowledge is power, and sometimes, it can help "save" you too!

But do you know if that would make Christ God or not? You can tell I'm a new Christian and I've so many questions.

What makes Jesus, God, is that God the Son (Second Person in the Trinity) Incarnated as a mortal, human man. That man is Jesus the Christ. The Incarnation is what makes Jesus, God.

If you have any more doctrinal questions, not to toot my own horn, but I like to think I'm fairly knowledgeable about such things. Feel free to PM me if you wish. I love challenges

Also, see depthdeception's post (#8 in the thread). His statement about "Mysteries" is important to know and consider. We are followers of a religion of many, many "Mysteries."

It's actually not quite that simple. While Christ was two natures (human and divine), these two natures were joined in hypostatic nature in one person.

Agreed.

Therefore, that which happens to the person affects the whole person, not some compartmentalized nature.

Agreed again.

The way you phrase it, you appear to be suggesting that Christ was two separate persons, not two natures bound in hypostatic union. Therefore, the "easy" divisions which you make between the two is inappropriate and borders on many of the heretical viewpoints (such as Nestorianism) which Chalcedon sought to overcome.

Perhaps you are right, although allow me to make it clear I am no monophysite (not that you were accusing me). I believe that Jesus was of two natures, distinct yet inseperable. Just like how God is made of Three distinct and yet inseperable Persons.

As you said and implied, it is a Mystery of Faith. We'll never understand it 100% perfectly, although that Formula is a great beginning.

 

[daveleau]

If we think of it in human terms, then it is difficult to reconcile, but Christ and God and the Holy Spirit are one and are three at the same time. Scripture defines them as such. Christ is NOT a creation of God since God says Christ has been there from the beginning. This is the basic tennent of Christianity.

 

[depthdeception]

Iit is a Mystery of Faith. We'll never understand it 100% perfectly, although that Formula is a great beginning.

I agree completely!

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Jesus Christ is divine, but he is not God himself. There are many passages where Christ puts himself below God; how can God and Jesus be the same when Christ does not place himself on the same level as God?

Must you ignore the passage I gave where Jesus states that He and the Father are the same?

 

[tqpix]

Must you ignore the passage I gave where Jesus states that He and the Father are the same?

What John 10:30 says is that he and his father are one. It doesn't necessarily mean one and the same. It could mean many things. My take on that is that he means he and his father are united as one.

Also, the verse right before that (i.e., 10:29) clearly shows us Jesus talking about he and his father as two separate entities.

 

[Scholar in training]

Must you ignore the passage I gave where Jesus states that He and the Father are the same?

I think that saying the Father and Jesus are the same isn't exactly right. That implies that they are the same person, which is closer to Modalism or Oneness Pentecostalism. Trinitarianism holds that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons of one essence; but one being.