Children and suicide

[Peterthepebble]

I read in the Metro paper today that a young boy of nine committed suicide. I was grieved on reading this as suicide is a sin and because of the consequences of this action. He said he wanted to die because of an incident that occurred at his school. I sincerely hope that God had mercy on him, but I do not know because I am not God. My question is, would a nine year old boy go to hell for committing suicide? The thought of this causes me great distress.

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[Liz in the rain]

I don't understand how a child can have such a fatalistic outlook on life. They should be filled with wonder and possibility.

 

[ittarter]

I read in the Metro paper today that a young boy of nine committed suicide. I was grieved on reading this as suicide is a sin and because of the consequences of this action. He said he wanted to die because of an incident that occurred at his school. I sincerely hope that God had mercy on him, but I do not know because I am not God. My question is, would a nine year old boy go to hell for committing suicide? The thought of this causes me great distress.

How exactly would a nine-year old suicide be different from a twenty nine-year old suicide?

Either case causes me great distress...

 

[bibleblevr]

I read in the Metro paper today that a young boy of nine committed suicide. I was grieved on reading this as suicide is a sin and because of the consequences of this action. He said he wanted to die because of an incident that occurred at his school. I sincerely hope that God had mercy on him, but I do not know because I am not God. My question is, would a nine year old boy go to hell for committing suicide? The thought of this causes me great distress.

Was he one of the elect?

11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls (It doesn't matter if he committed suicide)—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d]13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

 

[lismore]

I was grieved on reading this as suicide is a sin and because of the consequences of this action.

I don't think suicide is a sin for the victim. Some people are just landed with more hell on earth than they can deal with.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

He will likely be raised up again to physical life during the millenium (Ezekiel 37). He will have a much better life then.

 

[Verticordious]

Sadly, suicide is pretty much guaranteed to land you in Hell. The Bible describes a believer as someone who's life is full of joy and hope, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what a person's life is like when they commit suicide. It doesn't seem reasonable to think that a normal person could know Christ, yet be completely depressed to the point of suicide.

There could be some rare exceptions, such as mental illness and other various medical issues. I'm no doctor, but I suppose it could be possible for hormone imbalances, or other such medical problems, to cause a person, even a Christian, to feel depressed to the point of suicide. Such cases are going to be extremely rare, however, not the norm. Most suicides are simply people making bad choices.

It's impossible to say for sure without knowing the boy, but, if you want an honest answers, it seem highly improbable that he will be in Heaven. As sad as it is, and as bad of a life he may have had, it was ultimately his choice to end his own life. He chose not to seek out help to improve his situation, so he is ultimately the one responsible for his fate.

 

[ittarter]

Sadly, suicide is pretty much guaranteed to land you in Hell. The Bible describes a believer as someone who's life is full of joy and hope, which is pretty much the exact opposite of what a person's life is like when they commit suicide. It doesn't seem reasonable to think that a normal person could know Christ, yet be completely depressed to the point of suicide.

Yeah, I know what you mean. A Christian life is all roses and giggles.

There could be some rare exceptions, such as mental illness and other various medical issues. I'm no doctor, but I suppose it could be possible for hormone imbalances, or other such medical problems, to cause a person, even a Christian, to feel depressed to the point of suicide. Such cases are going to be extremely rare, however, not the norm. Most suicides are simply people making bad choices.

Yeah. Totally. Christians never make bad choices, either.

It's impossible to say for sure without knowing the boy, but, if you want an honest answers, it seem highly improbable that he will be in Heaven. As sad as it is, and as bad of a life he may have had, it was ultimately his choice to end his own life. He chose not to seek out help to improve his situation, so he is ultimately the one responsible for his fate.

That's true. Children aren't ignorant when they choose to take their own life. They are fully able to weigh the pros and cons, and are able to realize that calling the crisis line isn't going to help matters. And I mean, God's hands are tied, since the choice of suicide is unlike every other choice, even murdering someone else (which can be forgiven). Suicide is to grace as Kryptonite is to Superman's strength.
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[OzSpen]

Peter,

I read in the Metro paper today that a young boy of nine committed suicide. I was grieved on reading this as suicide is a sin and because of the consequences of this action. He said he wanted to die because of an incident that occurred at his school. I sincerely hope that God had mercy on him, but I do not know because I am not God. My question is, would a nine year old boy go to hell for committing suicide? The thought of this causes me great distress.

I'm of the view that all children who die go to heaven. See my article, "Children & Heaven".

Regards, Spencer

 

[OzSpen]

Verticordios,

Most suicides are simply people making bad choices.

It's impossible to say for sure without knowing the boy, but, if you want an honest answers, it seem highly improbable that he will be in Heaven. As sad as it is, and as bad of a life he may have had, it was ultimately his choice to end his own life. He chose not to seek out help to improve his situation, so he is ultimately the one responsible for his fate.

As a long-term children's and family counsellor (33 years), I wish that I could say that a 9-year-old commits suicide because of bad choices. I know of children who have watched their father commit domestic violence for years on their mother; children who have been raped over and over by those who are supposed to love and care for them; children who have been bullied at home and at school to the point where they see no reason for living.

Some of these children are pushed to the point of killing themselves. I know. I have counselled their grieving parents, relatives and school friends.

I think your understanding needs some more detail as to why children commit suicide. I wish that my counselling load could be as simplistic as you have painted it.

Sincerely, Spencer

 

[Yukerboy]

"Suffer the children unto me" makes me believe that Christ is giving all children a "pass".

With that said, any Christian who has committed suicide did not sin.

Suicide is no better or worse than telling your child there is a Santa Claus or murdering that same child.

 

[ittarter]

"Suffer the children unto me" makes me believe that Christ is giving all children a "pass".

Quite an extrapolation.

With that said, any Christian who has committed suicide did not sin.

So what about the "Thou shalt not murder" thing?

Suicide is no better or worse than telling your child there is a Santa Claus or murdering that same child.

Ranked, most to least bad:
1. murdering a child
2. committing suicide
3. telling your child Santa Clause exists

See? Suicide is better than one and worse than another one. It's not rocket science.

 

[Yukerboy]

"Quite an extrapolation."

I absolutely agree it is an extrapolation. However, it's all I got to go on.

"So what about the "Thou shalt not murder" thing?"

The Thou shalt not murder thing was commanded by God to those who are under the law. Christians are not.

"Ranked, most to least bad:
1. murdering a child
2. committing suicide
3. telling your child Santa Clause exists

See? Suicide is better than one and worse than another one. It's not rocket science."

You are entitled to your opinion, however understand that the above is exactly that, an opinion. In God's opinion "If you break the least of these laws, you are guilty of them all"

By the Bible, all were condemnable by death. It is better for one to have a millstone around his neck and thrown in the sea than to deceive a child. If you break any of the law, you are guilty of breaking them all. Murderers, liars, etc...shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Etc, etc...

 

[ittarter]

I absolutely agree it is an extrapolation. However, it's all I got to go on.

You mean that all we have to base our discussion of child soteriology is a random one-liner from Jesus?

The Thou shalt not murder thing was commanded by God to those who are under the law. Christians are not.

So, you're saying that Christians are allowed to commit suicide because they're not Jews?

You are entitled to your opinion, however understand that the above is exactly that, an opinion.

Obviously, but it would be nice if you explained why on earth you think that the evilness of a given act cannot be quantified.

In God's opinion "If you break the least of these laws, you are guilty of them all"

I think that's your opinion, not God's. You claim that infanticide and suicide are, in God's eyes, no different than telling a tall tale to your child, and yet I will argue that no such comparison is ever made in any sacred text.

By the Bible, all were condemnable by death. It is better for one to have a millstone around his neck and thrown in the sea than to deceive a child. If you break any of the law, you are guilty of breaking them all. Murderers, liars, etc...shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Etc, etc...

Totally, totally, taking everything out of context. The first one has to do with leading a child away from God, which is not synonymous with telling a child the story of Santa Clause. (Was Jesus sinning when he told the story of Lazarus and the rich man?) The second, Pauline passage relates to habitual evil lifestyles and in no way weights one "individual" sin against another.

If someone told you to choose whether someone would steal your child or your penny, would you say that it doesn't matter because the two are equal? What about God? Would he say that?

Classic example of one sin being worse than another. Jesus says that there is ONLY one unpardonable sin. It doesn't matter what it is, or why. This alone forces us to conceive of different sins as having different degrees of evil impact or influence.

 

[Yukerboy]

"You mean that all we have to base our discussion of child soteriology is a random one-liner from Jesus?"

Pretty much. Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Of the little children is the kingdom of heaven.

"So, you're saying that Christians are allowed to commit suicide because they're not Jews?"

No. I said nothing about Jews. Christians are free to commit suicide as they are no longer under the law. If a Christian commits suicide, it is not sin.

"Obviously, but it would be nice if you explained why on earth you think that the evilness of a given act cannot be quantified."

On earth, it can be quantified. We put levels of evilness and goodness on different acts everyday. We are not God. What are the wages of telling your child there is a Santa Claus? Death. What are the wages of killing a child? Death. God makes no differentiation of sin. Sin is sin to God, we are the ones guilty of creating levels of sin. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

"I think that's your opinion, not God's. You claim that infanticide and suicide are, in God's eyes, no different than telling a tall tale to your child, and yet I will argue that no such comparison is ever made in any sacred text."

If you break the littlest point of the law, you are guilty of the whole law.

"Totally, totally, taking everything out of context. The first one has to do with leading a child away from God, which is not synonymous with telling a child the story of Santa Clause. (Was Jesus sinning when he told the story of Lazarus and the rich man?) The second, Pauline passage relates to habitual evil lifestyles and in no way weights one "individual" sin against another."

I have found the claim "taking things out of context" is paramount to "I don't like that verse, so ignore it." I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God. Either all of it is correct, or none of it is. A lying toungue (telling your child there is a Santa Claus) is as bad as murder.

Jesus told the story of Lazurus and the Rich Man. Did Christ lie? Absolutely not. Was Lazurus and the Rich Man a true story? Absolutely. Note the "parable" did not begin with "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."

The Pauline passage relates to those who lead evil lifestyles, agreed. And Paul says this is what some of you were, but you are washed. Does that mean you still do these things? 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"If someone told you to choose whether someone would steal your child or your penny, would you say that it doesn't matter because the two are equal? What about God? Would he say that?"

In society, not equal. In God's eyes? Absolutely.

"Classic example of one sin being worse than another. Jesus says that there is ONLY one unpardonable sin. It doesn't matter what it is, or why. This alone forces us to conceive of different sins as having different degrees of evil impact or influence."

One unpardonable sin....agreed....and it is not suicide.

 

[ittarter]

Pretty much. Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Of the little children is the kingdom of heaven.

I'm not seeing how this relates to telling kids about Santa.

No. I said nothing about Jews. Christians are free to commit suicide as they are no longer under the law. If a Christian commits suicide, it is not sin.

Last time I checked, the Jews are the only people "under the law."

On earth, it can be quantified. We put levels of evilness and goodness on different acts everyday. We are not God. What are the wages of telling your child there is a Santa Claus? Death. What are the wages of killing a child? Death. God makes no differentiation of sin. Sin is sin to God, we are the ones guilty of creating levels of sin. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Thanks for providing a specific citation. Your argument is at least potentially compelling, since from what I can tell you have interpreted James 2 correctly.

I am still wary, though, because in my experience in the bulk of the Bible God treats one sin differently than another sin. Besides the so-called "unpardonable sin" (which is clearly worse, since it cannot be pardoned) Jesus encourages people to work on the sabbath if the "greater good" of the law is achieved (loving God, loving neighbor). Hence if one must choose between resting on Saturday and helping someone out of a jam, the latter is selected over the former.

There are many, many other examples. Recall the varying punishments in the Pentateuch; some are fatal and others not.

I have found the claim "taking things out of context" is paramount to "I don't like that verse, so ignore it." I believe the Bible is the infallible Word of God. Either all of it is correct, or none of it is. A lying toungue (telling your child there is a Santa Claus) is as bad as murder.

Infallibility has got nothing to do with context.

While I recognize that the appeal to context is often influenced by less than objective interests, to simply decry all context-based interpretations on this basis is itself tantamount (not paramount) to brash silliness. There is always some sort of context governing one's hermeneutic endeavor -- sometimes literary, sometimes theological, sometimes thematic -- and we only fool ourselves if we suppose that we can read and understand ANYTHING without context.

Jesus told the story of Lazurus and the Rich Man. Did Christ lie? Absolutely not. Was Lazurus and the Rich Man a true story? Absolutely. Note the "parable" did not begin with "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..."

Jesus tells lots of parables that do not begin with the phrase you cited. To assume that a story "really happened" simply because it is not preceded by a common formulaic script is uncalled for.

The Pauline passage relates to those who lead evil lifestyles, agreed. And Paul says this is what some of you were, but you are washed. Does that mean you still do these things? 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Your response didn't address my point. I'll say it again then drop it if necessary. You cited the passage as proof that all sins are equal. But it doesn't say that. It only says that those who practice the same evil lifestyles as those listed will all receive the same punishment, namely, they will not inherit God's kingdom. Hence the passage cannot be used to support your thesis.