Chart showing the THREE COMMISSIONS...NOT one...THREE!

[eph3Nine]

Find out which commission relates to YOU!

http://gracebeacon.net/charts/stam-three_great_commissions.jpg

 

[eph3Nine]

Peter and the Twelve taught something totally different....LOOK at this chart for PROOF

http://gracebeacon.net/charts/stam-twelve_apostles_and_apostle_paul.jpg

 

[xenia]

Am I reading correctly that the 12 Apostles limited their evangelism only to Isreal? I have a book here that shows the twelve apostles went all over. It is a well-known fact that St. Thomas began a church in India.

 

[eph3Nine]

Am I reading correctly that the 12 Apostles limited their evangelism only to Isreal? I have a book here that shows the twelve apostles went all over. It is a well-known fact that St. Thomas began a church in India.

You are reading correctly as this is what the scripture teaches. Peter and the twelve limited their teaching to Israel ONLY. Your book is incorrect.

They never made it OUT Of Jerusalem as their program was INTERRUPTED and SET ASIDE. You see, that's what we have been telling you!

Galatians 2 verses 1-9 explain what happened clearly, but especially verse 9, which reads:

Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived (they had it EXPLAINED to them and UNDERSTOOD something NEW was happening here) the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they (who? PETER AND THE BOYS..) unto the circumcision.


In order for the twelve to go into all the world, The Nation ISRAEL had to believe FIRST! That was the deal God made with them.

There simply IS no biblical proof that any of the disciples went anywhere and started anything. Isn't that any eye popper?

Since God CHANGED programs< Israel no longer had anything to take to the world. Their deal with God was that THEY would be the channel of blessing TO the world AFTER they themselves believed. As a NATION, They DIDN'T believe. God knew they wouldn't and already had a plan that circumvented Isreals REFUSAL to be a channel of blessing to the world! He kept it HID, and a SECRET until due time when HE raised up PAUL with the MYSTERY!

Yeeeee haw...now this is gooooood news! With Israels failure to do as she was supposed to, the world was in danger of NOT hearing Gods plan and purpose. God wasnt going to let that happen...no sirreeee! He had a plan from BEFORE The foundation of the world that didnt depend on Israel, or the law, or any performance by any human being. He made HIS performance the criteria by which we are ALL saved, jew and gentile alike.

Isn't that awesome?

 

[xenia]

St. Thomas did go to India. There is historical evidence for many, if not all of the apostles leaving Jerusalem.

The books didn't come yesterday but I am optimistic that I will receive them today!

Best regards,
Xenia

 

[eph3Nine]

If the evidence isnt in the bible , Im afraid its NOT reliable. The bible tells us that they never got out of Jerusalem. God SET ASIDE the gospel given to them...and ushered in a brand NEW program. The gospel given to the nation Israel was TAKEN OFF THE TABLE when God SET THEM ASIDE.

The Bible is the ONLY accurate and reliable source of information that we have in matters such as this.

 

[xenia]

The Bible doesn't mention that Christopher Columbus traveled to the New World, either, but that certainly happened.

I should tell you that I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe in Tradition, of which the Bible is the greatest of the Traditions of the Church. I do not believe the Bible produces the church but that the Church produced the Bible.

 

[eph3Nine]

If you wish to believe that they went all over the world and preached a gospel that no longer existed, but had been superceded by a NEW and better gospel, and disregard all evidence to the contrary that the scripture provides, then that is certainly YOUR choice.

We are WARNED against believing the "traditions of MEN" over the Word of God. If God doesn't have the final say so, then we all just "do what is right in our OWN eyes" and the world becomes what it is, Chaotic and without ORDER.

Religion isn't what God calls us to , xenia. Religion is man trying to reach GOD. God has much to say about religion and none of it is Good!

God has reached down to mankind and He has recorded that information in His Word. We can either believe it or NOT> NO One will end up in hell due to their sins, but because of UNBELIEF.

We are never instructed to follow the traditions of men, no matter how noble and spiritual sounding they are. And we sure arent instructed to drag around a program that God has declared presently DEFUNCT, and act as if we are doing Him a favor by trying to achieve what the JEWS couldn't do either. The whole purpose of the law was to show the Jews that they could NEVER attain to righteousness through obedience to it, as even ONE slip made you disobedient to ALL of it! The law was NEVER meant to make a man righteous, but to lead a man to the ONLY RIGHTEOUS ONE.

Traditions are satans tool to keep men IGNORANT of the truths revealed to set a man FREE and to SAVE him.

Unfortunately, mankind loves anything that tells his "flesh"..you CAN do it, you CAN do it.

God says.>>>>>>>NOPE< you cant...so I did it FOR YOU. Thats what Christianity is all about!

 

[xenia]

Can the doctrine of Sola Scriptura be found in the Bible?

 

[xenia]

I'll save you some time: the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (Bible alone) can not be found in the Bible. The 27 books of the NT were compiled by the Church in the 4th century. It was the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that compiled the Bible you have in your hands today. How did they determine what books to include and leave out? How did the book of Acts make it and the books of Clement not make it? This question was asked: Does the book teach what has been believed everywhere by all the faithful, since the beginning? If the book passed this test it was included in the canon of Scripture. If not, it was set aside. It was the Church that compiled the Bible.

And this is the main reason Dispensationalism cannot be a true doctrine. It was not believed by the faithful since the beginning. The same criteria that established the canon of Scripture demolishes innovations like Dispensationalism.

Now, if you call the decisions of the early church fathers to be "traditions of man" then you have to call the canon of Scripture a tradition of man as well.

We believe the Bible is true. It is a treasure of the Church. We value it so much that we do not believe individuals have the authority to interpret it for themselves.

A question: According to Paul, what is the pillar and foundation of the truth? You will find the answer in I Timothy, one of the books I think (I may be mistaken) you believe were written to you.

Best regards,
Xenia

 

[xenia]

If you wish to believe that they went all over the world and preached...

It's not what I wish to believe, it's what actually happened.

Let me ask you this: (Hypothetical question) If you were to find a verse that seems to say "Man will never set foot on the moon" yet history tells us that man did set foot on the moon, what will you believe? Your eyes or an interpretation of Scripture? Notice I did not say that the choice is between believing your eyes or the Bible- the Bible is always to be believed. Individual interpretations- now that's another matter.

 

[eph3Nine]

No one is to give a personal interpretation of the bible...it does just fine interpreting itself, IF you rightly divide as God admonishes you to in 2 Tim 2:15. If you don't, then you open yourself up to confusion, error and willful ignorance.

Its NOT rocket science. Its a matter of "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

We are NEVER told to put EXPERIENCE over the facts of Gods Word..ever!

 

[xenia]

We are NEVER told to put EXPERIENCE over the facts of Gods Word..ever!

Well, I would agree with this to a certain extent. If I experience a dream or a vision that tells me to steal my neighbor's car when I know God's word says not to steal, the choice is simple: Go with the Bible. However, this is pretty easy because I think everyone interprets the "no stealing" rule the same way. But this is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about historical facts (St. Thomas in India, St. Matthew in Ethiopia, etc) that you want me to believe never happened because you have a unique interpretation of a Scripture that says the Holy Apostles never left Jerusalem. Even the Bible itself puts St. John on the Island of Patmos. He died in Ephesus in about the year 100 AD.

 

[xenia]

"faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God"

But where does your "Word of God" come from? It did not just float down from heaven. It was compiled by the Church.

I think we have to come to grips with this before we can talk about rightly dividing anything.

 

[JMWHALEN]

The Bible doesn't mention that Christopher Columbus traveled to the New World, either, but that certainly happened.

I should tell you that I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe in Tradition, of which the Bible is the greatest of the Traditions of the Church. I do not believe the Bible produces the church but that the Church produced the Bible.

_______________________________________________________________
Here we go-another "Sola Scriptura" battle. I shall now ely on the "twoedged sword"(Hebrews 4:12), the "hammer"(Jer. 23:29), "...the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God"(Eph. 6:17) in this battle. To use an analogy:Who needs to defend a lion? Just turn 'em loose!

1. Incorrect premise:

That the church produced the Bible is an assertion, based on the following incorrect premises of your:

-the church, in your view is the RCC =a hiearchial organization vs. the biblical view that it is a spiritual organism composed of fallible believers, saved by the grace of God.
-That this "Church" was /is the source of the revelation of the truth of God through scriptures vs. the biblical view that the LORD God is the source of truth-the "church" supports the truth, but is not the source of the truth. The "church" is composed of fallible men, who were used by God to both write the scriptures infallibly, preserve them, and support them.

Again, as 1 Timothy 3:15 states, the church is "the pillar and ground of the truth". The pillar and ground supports the truth, but is not the source of the truth? Pretty simple, huh?

Truth: an exact and faithful expression of the facts; the standard by which to judge all else; final authority.

The LORD God is the source of the truth: God the Father is the truth(Psalms 31:5); The Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ is the truth(Jn. 14:6); God the Holy Ghost is the truth(Jn. 14:7).

Only an absolute authority can provide absolute truth; all other truth is relative and changeable(Psalms 119:128).

I "take God at His word"-the simple defintiion of faith. He inspired it(2 Tim. 3:16), He preserved it, and it is without error,
in "5th grade English" .Scripture repeatedly declares that it is the source of truth, as it is written:
:

"... Thy word is true from the beginning:…."(Psalms 119:160

"...thy word is truth...." John 17:17

"...the scripture of truth...." Daniel 10:21

"...thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name...." Psalms 138:2

"...if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20

"...the word of truth...." 2 Tim. 2:15

"...when you received THE WORD OF GOD which ye heard of us, ye received it NOT AS THE WORD OF MEN, but as it is THE TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD(emphasis mine), which effectually worketh also IN YOU THAT BELIEVE"(emphasis mine-it does not "worketh" in those who do not believe it is the source of truth). 1 Thess. 2:12,13

Sola scriptura states that the Holy Bible is the direct revelation of God as it's source. As such, it has divine authority, for what the Bible says, GOD SAYS:

1." For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth" Romans 9:17

"And in very deed for this cause have I(referring to the LORD-emphasis mine) raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth" Exodus 9:16

2. "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." Galatians 3:8

"And I(referring to the LORD-emhasis mine) will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Genesis 12:3

3. "Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." Galatians 4:30

"And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir" Genesis. 15:4.

"Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac" Genesis 21:10(unlike you, Abraham and Sarah "took God at his word").

Thus, what the scripture says is equivalent to what God says. The Holy Bible makes no distinction




The issuet boils down to this: what is your final authority? Your options:1. "the Church"-The Roman Catholic Church view-"Holy Mother Church" and tradition define what is in the scripture-the issue is not the scripture, it is what "they" say as the custodians, 2. Experience-"If it feels good, it must be true" 3 Human reasoning-This is the viewpoint of the liberal:. "I do not see how there can be a hell. Therefore, there is no hell." This is idolatry.="My mind is my 'god'". = What I cannot conceive of, I will not believe. What I cannot understand, I will not accept. So, I will reduce "the Bible"(whatever that is, most do not seem to know)to what I believe.= And I just cannot believe there is a God of wrath, so there is no God of wrath. I just cannot believe that God could preserve His word without error, so therefore He did not. I just cannot understand how He could preserve His word without error, therefore He did not"4. The Holy Bible.


God has preserved His word without error. The word of God is the source of truth, not some "mystical church), and certainly not some organization like the RCC that preaches "another gospel". The church, which is His body, supports the truth, and is not the source of truth.

As commanded, do not "take my word for it". The apostle Paul, the primary Holy Spirit inspired "writer" of the New Testament, said the same, i.e., "check it out in the Book!":

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11


Ask yourself these questions: "Do you believe that the Bible is the sole source of truth?(The RCC does not) The question you need to ask yourself is this: Do you think that the LORD God has the wisdom to give His word in easily understandable terms?(The RCC does not). Are you going to believe what the Bible says, or what man(the "Magesterium") teaches? Do you believe God's word carries His authority? Do you believe that the Bible is the full, sufficient, clear, authoritative, and adequate rule of faith?(The RCC does not)."

If not, then are you not reflecting the mindset of pharaoh, as his shout resounds:

"...Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice....?"(Exodus 5:2).
_______________________________________________________________



2. " that I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.I believe in Tradition"

The best definition I know of "wisdom": the correct use of knowledge. Knowledge is the result of separating what is true from what is false. More specifically, the problem the human race has relative to God: How can we "know" God if he does not tell us what he is like? We cannot-we would create him in our own image, which is exactly what every unbeliever does who thinks of God apart from what the Bible tells him.

There is an absolute truth "out there", and the LORD God has revealed absolute truth, including truth pertaining to the critical issues of life, including who he is, and how man can approach him, in his written word, which we call the Bible("bible" means book). The LORD God has revealed absolute truth in his written word, "The scripture of truthDaniel 10:21), which "... is true from the beginning...."(Psalms 119:160), for "...thy word is truth..."(John 17:17), and "...thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name"(Psalms 138:4).

To those who say that "All truth is relative", I ask "Is that a true statement"? Thus, this argument "self destructs".

One may claim to believe anything, but that belief may not be logical and not based on knowledge, and the consequences of that belief will often demonstrate that fact. It is as the man who believed he could fly , so he jumped off an eighty-story building. On his way down, he said "So far, so good". Belief did not correspond with logic and knowledge. The danger of relativism is not "people believing nothing", it is people "believing anything".

Belief and the truth are independent. Absolute certainty about something is no assurance that you believe the truth. Someone may believe something with all their heart("sincerity"), and yet be in error. Mere belief does not guarantee you are correct. The opposite is also true. You may disbelieve something with absolute certainty, and yet be wrong. Just as belief does not guarantee something is true, doubt is no guarantee that something is false. The conclusion/argument: Belief makes nothing true, and the greatest doubt in the world makes nothing false-belief stands indepent of the truth itself. The truth goes on eternally regardless of one's belief, or lack therof.

I make the above points merely to emphasize that all Christians should stay clear of the "in my opinion" approaches to discussing this subject(as typified by the "Jesus Seminar" approach which is frequently paraded bt the news media). Nor is sincerity the barometer for truth. Sincerity does not determine truth. God's word does. Rely on "It is written", instead of:

"....every man did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 17:6, 21:25
" Every way of man is right on his own eyes...." Proverbs 21:2


3.No separation of the Living Word and the written word.

When we speak of the "Word", we can never separate the Living Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the written word, the Scriptures of truth. The Lord Jesus Christ, the Living Word, reveals the invisible God(Jn. 1:18). It is not that we have to explain Christ, but that His mission is to explain God to us. He interprets the Father, and we are to believe Him. Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ is called "The Word of God" because He makes known, reveals, and explains the Father. And this is why the Scriptures are called "the Word of God", because they make known the Father and the Son, by the Holy Spirit, the author of the Word.

The Lord Jesus Christ is "the Way" to the Father(Jn. 14). He makes known God to us in all His attributes, will, and words, "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me", "I have given them thy word","Thy word is truth"(Jn. 17:8,14,17)-it is always "THY Word".

In like manner, the written word, the Scripture, is given in order to interpret, and to testify of the Lord Jesus Christ. And this is why the Lord Jesus Christ is the one great subject of the Word.

This is why the Holy Spirit is the interpreter of both. The Holy Spirit's mission is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ(Jn. 16:14). He receives and shows the things of Christ. But He shows them in the Written Word(1 Cor. 2:9-14). And this is why it must be He and He alone who enables us to "Preach the Word"(2 Tim. 4:2).

Thus, we have the Word in 3 manifestations:
The Incarnate Word
The written Word
The Preached Word

There is no other. The Lord Jesus Christ reveals the Father. The Scripture reveals the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit reveals both in the written and preached word(1 Cor. 12:7,8).
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Now, "...Who is on the LORD's side....?"(Exodus 32:26)
In Christ,
John M. Whalen.

 

[JMWHALEN]

But where does your "Word of God" come from? It did not just float down from heaven. It was compiled by the Church.

I think we have to come to grips with this before we can talk about rightly dividing anything.

____________________________________________________
Nope. You make an assertion, an opinion, not an argument(reasons for a conclusion). The source of the scriptures is the LORD God, who used FALLIBLE men to write his inspired word, FALLIBLE men to preserve his inspired word, and FALLIBLE men to preach his inspired word. Fallible men-are you in that category? This is scripture's testimony. Your acceptance of it, or lack therof, does in no way impact the truth or lack of truth in scripture's own testimony. Again, the truth and your belief/opinion are independent.

The LORD God can raise His only Begotten Son from the dead, and save a formerly rotten, no-good scoundrel like me, and yet people cannot, will not,and do not accept He can use fallible men to write it, preserve it, and preach it. The Holy Bible calls this unbelief. I call it insanity.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[eph3Nine]

Well done JM ....and if I were YOU, xenia, I would take another look at the evidence he provided. If there ARE no absolutes and we are all left to "guess" at what God expects of us, then we are of all people to be pitied.

God wouldn't be much count as someone to follow if He can't even manage getting His instructions written down somewhere.

Thats the wonder and GRACE and awesomeness of the God I serve. He INCLUDED us in his plans and purposes and even USES us to implement them. US...fallible and imperfect and in need of more than just assistance. We needed to be identified with HIM in his death...we DIED with Him. His burial..Our old man in Adam was put out of His sight forever...and we are raised WITH Him to walk in newness of LIFE.

He , the JUST, is also the JUSTIFIER...amazing concept! He came NOT for the GODLY, xenia, but to justify the UNGODLY! IF God can do THAT...whats the problem believing HE left detailed instructions so we could KNOW what His criteria IS????

Your reasoning is faulty...but you CAN "change your mind". This is what the bible meaning of REPENT is!

 

[xenia]

Ask yourself these questions: "Do you believe that the Bible is the sole source of truth?(The RCC does not) The question you need to ask yourself is this: Do you think that the LORD God has the wisdom to give His word in easily understandable terms?(The RCC does not). Are you going to believe what the Bible says, or what man(the "Magesterium") teaches? Do you believe God's word carries His authority? Do you believe that the Bible is the full, sufficient, clear, authoritative, and adequate rule of faith?(The RCC does not)."

Good. We are at the crux of the matter. No, I do not believe the Bible is the sole source of truth. The Bible never says it is. I believe God gave us the Bible (as compiled by the Church) and also speaks to the Church throughout the centuries.

You apparently think I am Roman Catholic. I have stated here and my icon shows that I am Eastern Orthodox. You may not know much about the Orthodox Church. We are not ruled by an infallible pope. We are concilliar, rulled by councils of bishops. The Holy Spirit guided the church as it developed doctrine through the Seven Ecumenical Councils. It was these councils that condemned the Arian heresy which says Jesus is not God, compiled the Bible, and wrote the Nicene Creed (a document you agreed to when you joined Christian Forums.) These Councils dealt with issues that arose AFTER the N.T. was completed, heresies like Arianism and Nestorianism. These councils, guided by the Holy Spirit codified the doctrine of the Trinity and the nature of Christ.

I believed in Sola Scriptura almost my entire life and I am 53 years old. I was a dispensationalist, too, of a mild variety (not the type I see here on this forum.) Here's what I saw: people arguing endlessing over their private interpretation of Scripture, endless sermons on the mechanics of salvation, etc.etc. I saw people puffed up with knowledge, using their Bibles and their theories as battering rams. I saw very little holiness. I saw very little love. All I saw was prideful attempts to prove a particular interpretation of the Bible. It came to make me sick. So sick I nearly lost my faith entirely. I began to ask myself- "Is this the best Christianity has to offer? Where's the love Jesus talked about? Where's the concern for poor? Why am I losing my faith?" I nearly abandonded the faith but God, in an encredible act of mercy and kindness chose to rescue me.

I think my time among you is coming to a conclusion. I used to be a moderator here on Christian Forums and even now I enjoy cruising around the site, dropping in on various Christian groups and learning about them. I have learned a lot by doing this. I spent a delightful week with the Lutherans on their forum a while back and I enjoy the Catholic forum at times. I even get a feeling of warmth from the Pentecostals and the Baptists. I feel I have learned something from everyone while still holding on to the essentials of the Orthodox faith which is the faith handed down ("traditioned") from the Apostles. This is the first and only subforum where I felt there was nothing of value for me. I have found nothing here that rings of truth.

As I said, I was a Sola Scripturist for decades. I know all the arguments. I had better arguments than you have provided. None of them hold water.

Eph3Nine, thank you for your enthusiasm. The literature has not arrived yet but I'm sure it will get here tomorrow and I will read it, but with a heavy heart of sorrow for you all. Some of the things I have read here really have made me want to weep for you. There is so much more to the Christian life than poring over the Bible trying to prove stuff that isn't even true.

In closing I would like to say that the scriptures that do the best job of disproving Dispensationalism is the Olive Tree analogy. There's only one tree and only one people of God.

In peace,
Xenia

 

[eph3Nine]

Im truly sorry that you feel the way you do, xenia. Doctrine IS of the utmost importance if we are ever to determine what real truth is! The most recent doctrine for mankind was given to Paul for we, the Body of Christ.

Without a plumbline to go by ..a place where there IS absolute truth, and its plain and simple...then we are all left to our own devices and feeble attempts at explanation. The bible needs NO interpretation, it interprets itself when it is read and studied as God suggests...RIGHTLY divided. Realizing that He has a program to restore his plan and purpose for the EARTH, and a program for restoring his plan and purpose for the heavens. The bible is NECESSARY for us to SEE the BIG PICTURE! Gen 1:1...HEAVEN And EARTH. Theres the big picture. Both realms are Gods to rule and that rule has been usurped by Satan and his fallen angels.

Without knowing the WHY ...you wont understand where YOU fit in and how.

Religion STINKS. God has given us HIS WORD...if we cant agree that His WORD is the final standard by which we judge all else, then we have NOTHING.

Don't feel sad or sorry for we who BELIEVE God! We are the ones for whom He came...He died for the entire world, but only those who BELIEVE that His death, burial and resurrection actually accomplished what He says it did, will become a part of His Body and be forever with Him in heaven.

The choice is yours. Religion isn't the answer...but rightly dividing Gods Word certainly is. How do I know that? Cuz God told us!

Don't make it more difficult than it is. Go to the books that contain the LATEST and GREATEST information God has revealed to Mankind. Romans thru Philemon....thats where the gospel of OUR salvation is found.

Much luck in your quest for truth...unfortunately the bible contains the information you need to find it and you dont think its sufficient. Now that I find truly sad.

LOVE doesn't compromise truth, its NOT warm fuzzies and its not associated with how we "feel". Its a CHOICE.

I choose to love you by telling you the truth found ONLY In Gods Word.

Huuuuugs to you , dear one.

 

[xenia]

Oh- one more thing before I leave. I want to thank you for letting me argue with you a little. Most forums on CF would not allow this- by now I would have been reported and warned, I reckon. Thank you- you've been most gracious.

-Xenia