Charismatic Lutherans

sculpturegirl said:

Is there such a thing as Charismatic Lutherans, who believe (and practise) speaking in tounges, laying on of hands, healing, etc.? I heard about a movement in the 1970s, but what about now?

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Hmmm. . .not heard of that. . .I mean, I don't know Lutherans who deny these things, but I don't know any who openly practice all these things consistantly, either. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

KagomeShuko said:

Hmmm. . .not heard of that. . .I mean, I don't know Lutherans who deny these things, but I don't know any who openly practice all these things consistantly, either. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

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I've been a Lutheran for 50 years and I've never know any Lutherans who practice it, and any time I speak with non-Lutherans and say that I don't , I get bashed for not being baptised by the Holy Spirit or some such thing. I think the charismatics don't think its possible to worship God in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues.

sculpturegirl said:

Is there such a thing as Charismatic Lutherans, who believe (and practise) speaking in tounges, laying on of hands, healing, etc.? I heard about a movement in the 1970s, but what about now?

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Yes, there are quite a few. Many of them belong to a parachurch group called Renewal in Missouri. Despite the bad press they get from the ultra-conservatives, I know from personal relationships with several of them (graduated from sem with a few) that they are solidly Lutheran. In other words, a person can be Lutheran and still believe in the extraordinary work of the Holy Spirit - these works did not necessarily stop when the last apostle died. However, as those in RIM note, these evidences are not above Scripture but are submitted to Scripture for testing. And no one I know in RIM denies the work and efficacy of Baptism or the Lord's Supper (often a charge against the RIM group).

I don't know of any Charismatic Lutheran groups in this part of Canada, but I did go to a Charismatic Catholic praise service once. That was rather... unusual.

Jim47 said:

I think the charismatics don't think its possible to worship God in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues.

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I know it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues. Do you know that it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit by speaking in tongues?

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

I have heard of Charismatic Catholics, but not Lutherans. It would not surprise me if there were some. Perhaps speaking in tongues would certainly return in the end times. I would not doubt it was real for that reason alone. However, it is stressed way too much, and it cannot be forced on anyone. It is wrong to try to force someone to speak in tongues. Not everyone has that gift.

The Lutheran church where I live supports the belief that gifts of the Spirit such as speaking in tongues, prophecying, healing, etc are still manifest today, and meetings in which these appear are encouraged by the church leaders. The formal church services are much more rigidly structured and do not (as far as I am aware) offer any scope for such gifts to be displayed.

Such manifestations in a group form appear in special prayer evenings and evangelical gatherings with a more free format. They are not expressed with any degree of extra emotionality, but in a rather matter-of-fact understatement.

I have never experienced such gifts personally, but I am quite impressed when I hear someone talking in tongues with simultaneous translation. However, I remain on the fence as to what to make of it......

Kaitsu

Jim47 said:

I've been a Lutheran for 50 years and I've never know any Lutherans who practice it, and any time I speak with non-Lutherans and say that I don't , I get bashed for not being baptised by the Holy Spirit or some such thing. I think the charismatics don't think its possible to worship God in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues.

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It is easy to generalize, and sadly this happens when discussing charismatics. The Lutheran charismatics that I know (and have read all their material) do not insist that everyone has to speak in tongues, nor have they ever given an indication my worship is deficient. The reason that Lutheran charismatics can take this view is that they realize that we are Word and Sacrament worship oriented/focused/driven.

sculpturegirl said:

I guess I would like to see, what Kaitsu says about his church in Finland- where services are traditional, but workings of the spirit are engaged to build up the church as well. Most Lutherans I know have never witnessed such "workings of the spirit" but all seem to agree that they exist and are Biblical.

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Orderliness and sensibility seem to be reflected in Paul's own description of such gifts, for example:

"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" 1 Cor 14:22,23

and

"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace." 1 Cor 14:29-33

In my church (Ev. Lut.), both the services and ceremonies (baptism, confirmation, marriage, funerals) follow a (more or less) standard format with four main sections: the opening, the Word, the event itself (e.g. baptism, communion), the close. I have never seen any expression of charismatics in any of these events (I work in the church). But there are other regular events such as prayer and song evenings, lectures, bible classes, prayer circles, etc where people are given the opportunity to speak/testify in public and/or pray in groups. It is in these events that tongues, prophecies, visions, words, etc are given to people. They are always orderly and controlled and always assessed publicly afterwards for their alignment with bible teachings. These events are always very warm, friendly and constructive.

I have no reason to doubt their authenticity, but would not like to see the background murmurings and ramblings (that appear in some other churches) also appear in the main church services of worship. Somehow it does not seem to belong there as it is disorderly, random, disturbing to others, and contains no public contribution or edification in general.

But maybe I'm just old-fashioned....

Kaitsu

lonnienord said:

I know it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit without speaking in tongues. Do you know that it is possible to worship GOD in truth and spirit by speaking in tongues?

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

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I did not intend any slur by what I said, I only repeated what I was told by many of them. I don't deny that some people may have that gift. Sorry if you misunderstood me.

I am concerned that those here are forgetting Scripture. 1 Co 14:27-28, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." While speaking in tongues is not forbidden, without an interpreter one is only babbling or spewing wind to no good purpose. Do the churches where this is practiced fulfill the mandates of Scripture?
I have been to 1 Pentecostal service in my 55 years and I was revolted.
Christ is the center. Any other focus than on Him and what was done for us is concerning. To God be the Glory!

Treestand said:

I am concerned that those here are forgetting Scripture. 1 Co 14:27-28, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three- should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." While speaking in tongues is not forbidden, without an interpreter one is only babbling or spewing wind to no good purpose. Do the churches where this is practiced fulfill the mandates of Scripture?
I have been to 1 Pentecostal service in my 55 years and I was revolted.
Christ is the center. Any other focus than on Him and what was done for us is concerning. To God be the Glory!

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I'm not reading anywhere in this that they've ignored this important part of the scriptures. . .

We're not going pentacostal here. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

I think you missed my point. I am concerned that Scripture is not being adhered to, not that we are going pentacostal. Although they are the ones that regularly include this practice as a part of their services. I am much more concerned that "charismatic" involvement is not being true to Scripture.

Treestand said:

I think you missed my point. I am concerned that Scripture is not being adhered to, not that we are going pentacostal. Although they are the ones that regularly include this practice as a part of their services. I am much more concerned that "charismatic" involvement is not being true to Scripture.

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It is my understanding the "tongues" they were speaking in Acts were actual languages. I have heard it said what people are babbling in some Pentecostal circles is just that, babbling...and has no meaning.

On the other hand, I've have heard someone was visiting a church, and they were from another country and spoke another language (in addition to English)...and was astonished to hear someone speaking in tongues, and they understood it in their native language. If that is the case, it is far more believable! In my opinion....

sculpturegirl said:

I grew up with a charasmatic background. I speak in tounges on occasion, but feel that it is a private matter as Paul describes.

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Paul tells us that the gifts of the Spirit are for the edification of the Church and for the building up of one another. I would be interested in how your "speaking in tongues" in private is building up the Church as the Spirit intends that gift to be used.



DaRev

Regarding why gifts of the Spirit do or do not appear in modern times, I think there are at least two reasons given us in the bible, one is God's doing and the other is our own:


1) God's reasons:

"...This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." Heb 2:3,4

It is clear from this that such gifts were given around the time of Jesus' incarnation because they had a broad purpose in God's on-going plan to establish, root and distribute the gospel on earth. I personally think the difficulty lies with our misunderstanding of the term "gift". These powers of the Spirit are not given as rewards for good behaviour, etc, they are tools to be used in doing God's work. However, if we compare our environment in established Christian countries with that in Jesus' era, there is nowhere near the same need for these powers anymore - at least there shouldn't be! We have our faith, we have our bible, we have prayer, we have direct access to God through Christ - what more do we need to believe in God? God should no longer need to continually testify on such a broad scale specifically through "signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." The following verse seems to confirm this view:

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:31

However, I am sure there are still occasions when it is according to his will to prophesy and heal, etc, but these have a more specific purpose rather than a general testimony to God's presence and power. Although I do not have personal evidence, I believe that the appearance of such powers of the Spirit are much more prevalent in those countries where the gospel is still new and breaking new territory.

2) Our reasons:

If we assume that God does still use powers/gifts of the Spirit according to his will there is still the risk that we ourselves stifle its manifestation. People are very reluctant to speak in languages or prophesy or pray for healing in environments which are dubious or skeptical of their authenticity. Fear of ridicule, humiliation, or rejection overcome our willingness to explore these powers in public - which is where they are usually intended to be displayed. This is often the situaition in church congregations where the authorities do not support these gifts or provide a positive environment in which they may be manifest. This leads to the situation that Paul exhorts us to avoid:

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire, do not treat prophecies with contempt" 1 Thess 5:19,20

but he also immediately warns:

"Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." 1 Thess 5:21,22

Here we see the quandary that we are in. On one hand we should not inhibit such gifts, but on the other hand, they are clearly open to abuse. We need to tread carefully, but the easy option is sometimes to simply ignore or deny the phenomenon entirely....

Kaitsu