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Chance of man evolving

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Infinity

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The esteemed late Carl Sagan and other prominent scientists have estimated the chance of man evolving at roughly 1 chance in 10 2,000,000,000.34 This is a figure with two billion zeros after it and would require about 2,000 books to write out. This number is so infinitely small it is not even conceivable. So, for argument’s sake, let’s take an infinitely more favorable view toward the chance that evolution might occur.


What if the chances are only 1 in 101000 the figure that a prestigious symposium of evolutionary scientists used computers to arrive at? This figure involved only a mechanism necessary to abiogenesis and not the evolution of actual primitive life. Regardless, this figure is also infinitely above Borél’s single law of chance—(1 chance in 1050)—beyond which, put simply, events never occur

Emile Borél, Probabilities and Life (New York: Dover, 1962), Chs. 1 and 3; Borél’s cosmic limit of 10200 changes nothing


In "Algorithms and the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution" Marcel P. Schutzenberger of the University of Paris, France, calculated the probability of evolution based on mutation and natural selection. Like many other noted scientists, he concluded that it was "not conceivable" because the probability of a chance process accomplishing this is zero:


there is no chance (<10-1000) to see this mechanism appear spontaneously and, if it did, even less for it to remain…. Thus, to conclude, we believe there is a considerable gap in the neo-Darwinian Theory of evolution, and we believe this gap to be of such a nature that it cannot be bridged within the current conception of biology

Marcel P. Schutzenberger, "Algorithms and the Neo-Darwinian Theory of Evolution" in Moorehead and Kaplan, eds., 75; cf., Bird, I, 79-80; for reasons why natural selection would not modify randomness and decrease these probabilities, see Bird, I, 158-165.


Evolutionary scientists have called just 1 chance in 1015 "a virtual impossibility."39 So, how can they believe in something that has less than 1 chance in 101000? After all, how small is one chance in 101000? It’s incredibly small—1 chance in 1012 is only one chance in a trillion


Please note that in exponential notation, every time we add a single number in the exponent, we multiply the number itself by a factor of ten. Thus, one chance in 10172 is ten times larger than one chance in 10171. One chance in 10177 is one million times larger than one chance in 10171. And one chance in 10183 is one trillion times larger than one chance in 10171. So where do you think we end up with odds like one chance in 10 100,000,000,000? In fact, the dimensions of the entire known universe can be packed full by 1050 planets—but the odds of probability theory indicate that not on even a single planet would evolution ever occur

Frank B. Salisbury, "Natural Selection and the Complexity of the Gene," Nature, Vol. 24, October 25, 1969, pp. 342-343 and James Coppedge, Director Center for Probability Research and Biology, North Ridge, California, personal conversation; cf., Coppedge, Evolution: Possible or Impossible?, passim.


Yea, I know I'm lazy for all the paste and copy
 

Mestel

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Didaskomenos said:
I do not understand why you posted this here. This is a Christians-only forum, and we all believe that God was behind the formation of the universe. You're preaching to the choir.

I beg to differ. Yes we are Christians but we also are not supposed to post silly arguments (out of context to boot) that are signs the poster is arguing from a lack of knowledge. There are many evolutionists who are Christians.
 
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Infinity

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Say look, maybe I didnt do the best job in getting the quotes in order to make sense to you. Perhaps what I posted made you mad or something? do you hate facts? Care to comment on what was said. I cant post links yet but go to John Ankerberg site and look up the quotes and see if there are silly
 
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Late_Cretaceous

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What were the chances of you being born?

First of all, your parents had to copulate at the time they did, otherwise your mother would not have gotten pregnent. What were the chances that they would do it on the very night she was able to conceive? The chances of that must be 100 to one.

Then there is the sperm. Millions and millions of sperm. Has another sperm fertilized the egg, you would have never been born. Someone else would be there in your place. The chances that the exact right sperm to make you are millions to one.

Yet against all odds you were born.
 
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Mestel

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Infinity said:
Say look, maybe I didnt do the best job in getting the quotes in order to make sense to you. Perhaps what I posted made you mad or something? do you hate facts? Care to comment on what was said. I cant post links yet but go to John Ankerberg site and look up the quotes and see if there are silly
You are posting well known quotes 'out of context'. Do you understand what that implies. They make no sense when taken this way. It's misleading at best and downright dishonest if truth be known. You also worry me with a John Ankerberg reference.
 
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Didaskomenos

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Mestel said:
I beg to differ. Yes we are Christians but we also are not supposed to post silly arguments (out of context to boot) that are signs the poster is arguing from a lack of knowledge. There are many evolutionists who are Christians.
I was talking to Infinity. Even we theistic evolutionists (I am one) believe that there was at least an element of divine causality for the universe, so hearing that atheistic abiogenesis and evolutionary theory are statistically improbable (or impossible) is nothing earth-shattering for either TE's or non-evolutionist Christians.
 
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Mestel

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Didaskomenos said:
I was talking to Infinity. Even we theistic evolutionists (I am one) believe that there was at least an element of divine causality for the universe, so hearing that atheistic abiogenesis and evolutionary theory are statistically improbable (or impossible) is nothing earth-shattering for either TE's or non-evolutionist Christians.
Sorry. I just hate the arguments anyway because they are just fallacious from a mathematical standpoint from the beginning. They also frequently misrepresent key points of biochemistry in the process. Garbage in garbage out to use the computer analogy.
 
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Dark_Adonis

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Infinity said:
The esteemed late Carl Sagan and other prominent scientists have estimated the chance of man evolving at roughly 1 chance in 10 2,000,000,000.34 This is a figure with two billion zeros after it and would require about 2,000 books to write out. This number is so infinitely small it is not even conceivable. So, for argument’s sake, let’s take an infinitely more favorable view toward the chance that evolution might occur.


What if the chances are only 1 in 101000 the figure that a prestigious symposium of evolutionary scientists used computers to arrive at? This figure involved only a mechanism necessary to abiogenesis and not the evolution of actual primitive life. Regardless, this figure is also infinitely above Borél’s single law of chance—(1 chance in 1050)—beyond which, put simply, events never occur

Emile Borél, Probabilities and Life (New York: Dover, 1962), Chs. 1 and 3; Borél’s cosmic limit of 10200 changes nothing
Just stopping at this part.
I could just picture the deductive logic now...
If A is extremely unlikely then A is false.
And now a disproof:
Let's say that there is some guy named Al who is playing a game with a pal of his, say his name is Joe. Now Al is free to pick any number, no limits to which number Al can pick...
Now since the set of all numbers is infinite and Al is free to pick any number the odds that Al will pick any given number is infinitely small, yet Al does pick a number.
Now since this works for infinitely small probabilities we can conclude that this same reasoning works with larger probabilities. Let's take a look at Borel's argument, it limits Al to picking between 1 and 1E1000. Now there is a 1/1E1000 probability of Al picking any given number. A number is still chosen thus the idea that an event with a 1/1E1000 probability is impossible is false...
Oh yes and can't forget TO's approach
And can't forget the disclaimer: Unless I misunderstand you in which I case I pray you enlighten me...
 
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Mother Vashti

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Late_Cretaceous said:
What were the chances of you being born?

First of all, your parents had to copulate at the time they did, otherwise your mother would not have gotten pregnent. What were the chances that they would do it on the very night she was able to conceive? The chances of that must be 100 to one.

Then there is the sperm. Millions and millions of sperm. Has another sperm fertilized the egg, you would have never been born. Someone else would be there in your place. The chances that the exact right sperm to make you are millions to one.

Yet against all odds you were born.
That's a poor counter-attack to the OP.

Before you boys and gals start acting out, hold your reins: no, there is not a 100 to 1 chance the female will get pregnant.

And BECAUSE there are hundreds of sperm, this make THE EVENT of conception more likely.

The OP is trying to say that the INPUTS required for THE EVENT, the evolution of the human being, are non-existent, and therefore evolution is a scientific impossibility.
 
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Didaskomenos

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Mestel said:
Sorry. I just hate the arguments anyway because they are just fallacious from a mathematical standpoint from the beginning. They also frequently misrepresent key points of biochemistry in the process. Garbage in garbage out to use the computer analogy.
No harm done. I'm no mathematician or scientist, so I don't know. My question still stands: even given the complete accuracy of Infinity's quote-mining, what is the point of this thread?
 
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Mestel

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Mother Vashti said:
The OP is trying to say that the INPUTS required for THE EVENT, the evolution of the human being, are non-existent, and therefore evolution is a scientific impossibility.
Which is why the OP needs to be extinguished. I agree the pregnancy thing is a poor argument but it's no worse than the OP argument. In fact it is better since it didn't take unconnected quotes taken out of context.
 
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Mestel

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Infinity said:
Well any of you please tell me "What are the chances of Evolution happening" Please include the odd's of everything on earth being as they are in regards of Plants/Animals/Weather/ Ect.ect
By accident you have hit upon the reason why your questions are meaningless. But I'll bet you don't know what I mean.
 
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Infinity

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Didaskomenos said:
No harm done. I'm no mathematician or scientist, so I don't know. My question still stands: even given the complete accuracy of Infinity's quote-mining, what is the point of this thread?

To make really look at it from another angle. But the odds dont seem to fase you. Where here so it must be true
 
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Infinity

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Mestel said:
By accident you have hit upon the reason why your questions are meaningless. But I'll bet you don't know what I mean.

I know I ask a question that has no answer. I'm sorry it begs to be asked. But tell me, what is the great commission of our Lord? Since you are a Christian. You did say you where Christian
 
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Dark_Adonis

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Infinity said:
Well any of you please tell me "What are the chances of Evolution happening" Please include the odd's of everything on earth being as they are in regards of Plants/Animals/Weather/ Ect.ect
Well let's see here:
It seems to me that there are at least two possibilities...
The first is that the process was guided by God and thus the chances from that stance is 1
The second possibility is that the process wasn't God guided, let's say that there are an infinite number of possibilities for our planet/universe/whatever you choose, now we use the Anthropic Principle to suggest that ours is a possibility. Next we look my previous proof that things with an infinitely small probability are still possible, we use this to conclude that it is possible that our universe formed the way it did and we are living out this possibility.
Thus either way the argument dies... I think
 
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