Challenge to Sabbath-keepers or Sunday "Lord's Day" proponents!

[Your Neighbor]

For sabbatarians -
Where does the sabbath that the Jews or Christian sabbatarians in Israel observe actually get started on the planet? Where is the line? Can you tell me with scriptural authority?

For Sunday "Lord's Day" proponents -
Where does the Sunday "Lord's Day" that the Pope and bishops in Rome observe actually get started on the planet? Where is the line? Can you tell me with scriptural authority?

(In my past I've been in the church who is the world's largest promoter of the Sunday Lord's Day and in the church who is the world's largest seventh-day sabbath promoter.)

 

[cygnusx1]

..that is a good question!!!

 

[ScottBot]

For sabbatarians -
Where does the sabbath that the Jews or Christian sabbatarians in Israel observe actually get started on the planet? Where is the line? Can you tell me with scriptural authority?

For Sunday "Lord's Day" proponents -
Where does the Sunday "Lord's Day" that the Pope and bishops in Rome observe actually get started on the planet? Where is the line? Can you tell me with scriptural authority?

(In my past I've been in the church who is the world's largest promoter of the Sunday Lord's Day and in the church who is the world's largest seventh-day sabbath promoter.)

Who said it had to be based on Scriptural authority. The church was founded on the teaching authority of the Apostles, not solely on the Scriptures. The Apostles message carried as much dogmatic weight as the Scriptures did. So if the Apostles had people gather for worship on Sunday, then that is what I will follow.

Here are some Patristic writings which support the move from a 7th day sabbath to Sunday "Lord's Day".

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master.
Letter to the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest--abstraction from ills--preparing for the Primal Day,[The Lord's Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth--a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest.
Stromata, 6:16 (A.D. 202).

In fine, let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of the threat of death, teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered "friends of God." For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised--yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath--God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God.
An answer to the Jews, 2 (A.D. 203).

 

[BarbB]

For sabbatarians -
Where does the sabbath that the Jews or Christian sabbatarians in Israel observe actually get started on the planet? Where is the line? Can you tell me with scriptural authority?

G-d instituted the Sabbath on the 7th day, not the first. Since it was first celebrated in Sinai, I'm going to hazard a guess that the Sabbath day would start in Israel (you are probably looking for me to say the International Date Line).

EX 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. [9] Six days you shall labor and do all your work, [10] but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.

 

[Your Neighbor]

Who said it had to be based on Scriptural authority...

I do. And so do most of us who are not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

Please do not post any quotes from "authorities" other than inspired scriptures.

 

[tall73]

Who said it had to be based on Scriptural authority. The church was founded on the teaching authority of the Apostles, not solely on the Scriptures. The Apostles message carried as much dogmatic weight as the Scriptures did. So if the Apostles had people gather for worship on Sunday, then that is what I will follow.

Here are some Patristic writings which support the move from a 7th day sabbath to Sunday "Lord's Day".

You all are missing the point. He is asking how you know the dateline, not which day is right.

 

[BarbB]

EZE 5:5 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.

This verse could be used to indicate that to God, Jerusalem is the International Date Line!

 

[Your Neighbor]

G-d instituted the Sabbath on the 7th day, not the first. Since it was first celebrated in Sinai, I'm going to hazard a guess that the Sabbath day would start in Israel (you are probably looking for me to say the International Date Line).

I don't question the origin of the sabbath (or that it is the 7th day).

I don't question the observance of the sabbath in Israel.

I do, however, question the observance of any "holy" day for those around the planet everywhere else.

Gentiles use the International dateline to determine where "holy" days begin and end. Jews use 4 different lines, depending upon what flavor they are. If you don't believe me, See map here: http://www.star-k.com/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline2.htm and article here: http://www.star-k.com/kashrus/kk-trav-dateline.htm

 

[tall73]

This verse could be used to indicate that to God, Jerusalem is the International Date Line!

Yeah, several favor this view

The True Sabbath begins Friday at sunset in Jerusalem, and the leading edge of this Sabbath Setting Darkness moves around the world from Jerusalem in the East to the West, as the Earth turns. If you will check your world maps and globes....Of course, this is not in accordance with our Creator, who established Jerusalem as the Holy City, and therefore, YHVH's International Dateline. With this knowledge it is easy to see that approximately one-half of the Earth is off by a day. ....

http://www.sabbatarian.com/Spotlights/Dateline.html

In any case the one place we know that the Sabbath is right is in the Holy Land where it was kept by Jesus, etc.

 

[tall73]

For sabbatarians -
Where does the sabbath that the Jews or Christian sabbatarians in Israel observe actually get started on the planet? Where is the line? Can you tell me with scriptural authority?

For Sunday "Lord's Day" proponents -
Where does the Sunday "Lord's Day" that the Pope and bishops in Rome observe actually get started on the planet? Where is the line? Can you tell me with scriptural authority?

(In my past I've been in the church who is the world's largest promoter of the Sunday Lord's Day and in the church who is the world's largest seventh-day sabbath promoter.)

This is not a challenge as such. It is a chance for you to let people guess at what your real view is then finally spill the beans. You already said that you keep the Sabbath in another thread. You said here that it is unquestioned in Israel, which we would all know.


So instead of taking three different threads and tons of time-wasting posts to get to your point, why not just say it?

As it is you look like the 4th grader who has taken his class hostage by bringing the latest trendy toy to school. They all follow him around waiting for their turn to look at it.

If you want to teach, then teach. Then we can spend our time weighing your contribution rather than guessing at what it might be.

 

[BarbB]

....I do, however, question the observance of any "holy" day for those around the planet everywhere else.....

Looks like I should redouble my efforts to go to Jerusalem for a nice long stay!

 

[Your Neighbor]

This is not a challenge as such. It is a chance for you to let people guess at what your real view is then finally spill the beans... You said here that it is unquestioned in Israel, which we would all know...If you want to teach, then teach. Then we can spend our time weighing your contribution rather than guessing at what it might be.

No. It is a challenge. It comes from someone who until last weekend has kept the sabbath for many years (as recognized by the 1884-accepted man-made dateline). May I also say that before my dateline sabbath "sabbath-keeping" I did observe Sunday as "the Lord's day" (also, as recognized by the 1884-accepted man-made dateline).

Is there a Roman Catholic or a Seventh-day Adventist (or anyone in between) who can tell me with scriptural authority that God accepts the recent, man-made international dateline used today?

 

[Your Neighbor]

More for SDA's and RC's to chew on.

"Tongans are scrupulous observers of the Wesleyan Sabbath, and it is possible to be arrested for fishing on Sunday. Even the Seventh-day Adventists, who elsewhere take Saturday as their Sabbath, here observe the Sabbath on Sunday. The local Adventist pastor explained his church’s stand to me.
" ‘When God made the world, He made the day go from west to east,’ he said. ‘On the map, the so-called Date Line actually makes a jog to the east here. We maintain that what is called Sunday in Tonga is actually Saturday, since we are really on the eastern side of the Date Line [if it ran in a straight line]."—Luis Marden, "The Friendly Isles of Tonga," National Geographic, March 1968, p. 358.

 

[SPALATIN]

Who said it had to be based on Scriptural authority. The church was founded on the teaching authority of the Apostles, not solely on the Scriptures. The Apostles message carried as much dogmatic weight as the Scriptures did. So if the Apostles had people gather for worship on Sunday, then that is what I will follow.

Just to clarify, the reason that the Apostles had so much authority is because they lived with the Word. They traveled with him and when he died and was resurrected they became the voice of the word to the people. Their change from Saturday to Sunday was a tradition that they started primarily from the fact that Christ was resurrected on Sunday.

You are correct though that it isn't based on a scripture. Martin Luther used the term "adiaphora" which meant that a particular day is neither commanded nor forbidden by scripture. So the day does not matter, if you take Tuesday to be your Sabbath that is just fine.

 

[Your Neighbor]

In 1493 Pope Alexander VI issued a bull in which the meridian line located 100 leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands would divide the spheres of influence of the Spanish crown (westwards of the demarcation line) and the Portuguese crown (eastwards of the same line). The demarcation line was moved to 370 leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands in the following year by the Treaty of Tordesillas, sanctioned by Pope Julius II in 1506. European explorers who approached the Pacific Ocean by sailing to the east such as the Portuguese, the Dutch, the English and the French, naturally kept their ship’s journals and diaries according to the day count of their home land and this was of course, also, adopted by the colonists who settled along the Asian perimeter of the Pacific Ocean.

However, the colonization of the Pacific Ocean by the Spanish (catholic) occurred from the opposite direction and more specifically from the Spanish possessions in the Americas. The Philippine archipelago was discovered in March 1521 by Ferdinand Magellan and Spanish (catholic) dominion over the islands was first firmly established in 1565 by Miguel López de Legazpi (c. 1510 - 1572), the conquistador and first Spanish governor general of the Philippines. He had been equipped with five ships by Luis de Velasco, the viceroy of New Spain, and left Acapulco in 1564. In April 1565 he reached The Island of Cebu, and founded the first Spanish settlement on the site of modern Cebu City. In 1570 he sent an expedition to the northern island of Luzon and in the next year he founded the city of Manila, which became the capital of the new Spanish colony and Spain’s major trading port in East Asia. Since most of the shipping from the Philippines to Spain went over the Pacific Ocean to the Mexican port of Acapulco, was transported over land to the port of Veracruz, and then shipped to Spain. In order that the Spanish ships crossing the Pacific Ocean between the Philippines and the Spanish Americas would not have to adjust the dates in their journals whenever they sighted land, the Philippines (at that time) observed the same day count as that of the Spanish (catholic) Americas.

During the early 1840’s the commercial interests of the Philippine Islands turned more and more away from the Spanish Americas, and trading with the Chinese mainland, the Malay peninsula, the Dutch East Indies and Australia became increasingly important. So in order to facilitate communication and trading with its western and southern neighbors, the secular and religious authorities of the Philippines agreed that it would be advantageous to abolish the Spanish method of reckoning days (same as the Americas) and adopt the Asian method of reckoning. This in no way removed the influence of the International Date Line, but merely moved the Philippines to the West of the Date Line. This was achieved in 1844 when Narciso Claveria, the governor general of the Philippines, issued a proclamation announcing that Monday, 30 December 1844, was to be immediately followed by Wednesday, 1 January 1845 (One day ahead of the edge of the Sabbath Setting Darkness).

From about the 1740’s the north-western regions of North America had been explored by Russian adventurers and Russian whalers and fur trappers who subsequently settled there observed both the Asian day reckoning as well as the (catholic) Julian calendar upon which the liturgical calendar of the Eastern Orthodox Church was based. The neighboring Canadians however observed both the American day reckoning and the (catholic) Gregorian calendar and their time keeping therefore differed 12 days (13 days after 1800) with those of the Russians.

In 1867 Alaska was sold to the United States, and the change to the American mode of time reckoning was put into effect by decreeing that Friday, 6 October, of the same year would be followed by Friday (sic), 18 October – a shift of 12 days due to the change to the (catholic) Gregorian calendar (Named for Pope Gregory XIII) plus one day on account of the day change and minus one day for the relocation of the date line to the waters of the Bering Strait.

In October 1884 representatives from 25 countries convened in Washington DC at the International Meridian Conference to recommend a common prime meridian for geographical and nautical charts that would be acceptable to all parties concerned. When the meridian of the Royal Observatory at Greenwich was by nearly-common consent adopted as the prime meridian, it was remarked how convenient this choice was as it insured that the 180º meridian, where formally the Dateline should be located, mostly passed over water. However, no attempts were made during this conference to specify the exact course of the Dateline, when it happened to cross land or pass through island groups.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So there you have it. Millions observe a particular day as a holy day (either as 7th-day sabbath or as 1st day Lord's day) only because of a Pope's decree and then later 25 goverments basically accepted the pontiff's bull (no pun intended).

 

[Your Neighbor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Date_Line

 

[Your Neighbor]

http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm

Does God accept this CURRENT line?

 

[tall73]

You already have what you consider to be an answer and are just touting all this to get publicity. So state your answer. And if you think there is no answer, state that.

If you think that Sabbath is important, then do you want to play games with it?

And if you think it is not and many are deceived do you want to play games with that?

So give what you think is the answer or let it go.

 

[tall73]

That is why I observe the sabbath by the moon. It is not manmade, and it never changes (till the end of the world).


Here is scriptural support for such a teaching:

Gen 1:14
And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons [moadim -- SEC 4150, meaning "appointed times"], and for days, and years:

Psa 104:19
He appointed the moon for seasons [moadim]: the sun knoweth his going down.

According to Leviticus 23, the first of Yahweh's listed moadim is the sabbath, and in scripture it falls on the 8th, 15th, 22nd, and 29th days of his calendar.

It's a whole entire study. I would direct you towards Arnold Bowen at http://lunarsabbath.org/

Checking out the book. I came across someone with a similar view lately.

But it still doesn't solve the dateline issue. the moon is not up or down in the same spot the world over either.

So again you would have to key it to Jerusalem or some other point.

 

[ScottBot]

I have come to the general conclussion that this thread is a pointless ploy to try to instigate an arguement.