Cause & Effect?

david_x · Nov 7, 2009

JGG said:
Why is it selfish? Remember, I'm part of Satan's religion, so I'll go ahead and play Devil's Advocate.

Not you, the Christians who wants someone they hate to suffer.

Why are they wrong? Did God not tell Abraham to kill his son? Why would he not continue to do so today?

Well, bad example first off. Abraham's son was a Jew and innocent so that's really unrelated...

As far as punishing the wicked, God has left that up to the States of the world. Though at points they persecute the Christians they are in power by God to uphold certain, obvious laws. (In the OT Isreal was a state so they had this power, Christianity is not part of the state/shouldn't be.)

Christians on the other hand are here to serve, for the advancement of His kingdom.

Axioma · Nov 7, 2009

What does Abraham's son being a Jew have to do with anything? Does Jewishness make it more okay or less okay to kill someone, or order others to have them killed?

david_x · Nov 7, 2009

Axioma said:
What does Abraham's son being a Jew have to do with anything? Does Jewishness make it more okay or less okay to kill someone, or order others to have them killed?

If your going to jump into the middle of a conversation, have the decency to read everything.

Mystman · Nov 7, 2009

I'm going to have to agree with the "The Bible can be used to justify anything"-argument. That's not just exclusive to the Bible though. Any large written work can be used to justify anything. Especially when the languages of the writer and reader are so far removed, and when the work has been written by multiple authors from different backgrounds over a period of hundreds of years.

But anyway:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:
6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

.

That said... I can imagine getting punched while advocating a pro-choice stance when visiting the newly born. It's not really the time and place for those kind of sentiments.

david_x · Nov 7, 2009

Mystman said:
I'm going to have to agree with the "The Bible can be used to justify anything"-argument. That's not just exclusive to the Bible though. Any large written work can be used to justify anything. Especially when the languages of the writer and reader are so far removed, and when the work has been written by multiple authors from different backgrounds over a period of hundreds of years.

But anyway:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:
6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

.

That said... I can imagine getting punched while advocating a pro-choice stance when visiting the newly born. It's not really the time and place for those kind of sentiments.

I agree, like that cult that goes to protest at soldiers funerals. They could probably be punched, lul.

Also, why did you put that Deuteronomy excerpt into your post?

JGG · Nov 8, 2009

david_x said:
Not you, the Christians who wants someone they hate to suffer.

Well, they make good points. Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler (apparently), and Darwin (apparently) were all atheists. Those people were evil (including Darwin apparently). Therefore atheists are evil. Atheism must be Satan's religion.

That's pretty simple to figure out.

Well, bad example first off. Abraham's son was a Jew and innocent so that's really unrelated...

What does Abraham's son being a Jew have to do with anything? Does Jewishness make it more okay or less okay to kill someone, or order others to have them killed? I'm confused. Jewish or atheist is beside the point. God commanded Abraham to kill someone. God commanded these people to kill people. How can they be wrong to do so?

As far as punishing the wicked, God has left that up to the States of the world. Though at points they persecute the Christians they are in power by God to uphold certain, obvious laws. (In the OT Isreal was a state so they had this power, Christianity is not part of the state/shouldn't be.)

So it's up to the governments of the world to kill atheists, not individual citizens?

Christians on the other hand are here to serve, for the advancement of His kingdom.

So, isn't killing atheists a part of the advancement of that kingdom?

JGG · Nov 8, 2009

Mystman said:
That said... I can imagine getting punched while advocating a pro-choice stance when visiting the newly born. It's not really the time and place for those kind of sentiments.

To be fair, I wasn't even advocating a pro-choice stance. I was just trying to get into the hospital, and two people stopped me, and asked to join their protest. I said no. They asked if I thought abortion was murder. I said no. They asked if I believed in God. I said no. And deservedly, I was spun around and punched in the face.

Actually there was a bit where the guy accused me of going in to kill the twins I was going to see as part of a pagan sacrifice. Because fantasyland Paganism, and atheism are both Satanist religions, and therefore interchangable. Apparently.

Wedjat · Nov 8, 2009

JGG said:
To be fair, I wasn't even advocating a pro-choice stance. I was just trying to get into the hospital, and two people stopped me, and asked to join their protest. I said no. They asked if I thought abortion was murder. I said no. They asked if I believed in God. I said no. And deservedly, I was spun around and punched in the face.

Actually there was a bit where the guy accused me of going in to kill the twins I was going to see as part of a pagan sacrifice. Because fantasyland Paganism, and atheism are both Satanist religions, and therefore interchangable. Apparently.

That is depressingly ridiculous.

david_x · Nov 8, 2009

JGG said:
Well, they make good points. Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler (apparently), and Darwin (apparently) were all atheists. Those people were evil (including Darwin apparently). Therefore atheists are evil. Atheism must be Satan's religion.

Yeah, good points

What does Abraham's son being a Jew have to do with anything? Does Jewishness make it more okay or less okay to kill someone, or order others to have them killed? I'm confused. Jewish or atheist is beside the point. God commanded Abraham to kill someone. God commanded these people to kill people. How can they be wrong to do so?

The discussion started about killing those outside of whatever faith, then you gave the example of someone inside the faith. Not only that it was from the OT as well.

So it's up to the governments of the world to kill atheists, not individual citizens?

Don't put words in my mouth. This was not about atheist this was about evil doers.

So, isn't killing atheists a part of the advancement of that kingdom?

Lul, it's hard to make a convert of a dead man.

Mystman · Nov 8, 2009

david_x said:
Also, why did you put that Deuteronomy excerpt into your post?

Oh, that can be used to justfiy murdering atheists., something that the OP asked for. =)

(and again take note of my "any book can be used to justify anything"-stance, so I know that other verses can be used to show the exact opposite)

david_x · Nov 8, 2009

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:
6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

People who serve other gods are not atheists, for 1.

Also Christians are not saved by OT law, but by grace through Jesus Christ. Therefore we should show grace and love.

JGG · Nov 8, 2009

david_x said:
The discussion started about killing those outside of whatever faith, then you gave the example of someone inside the faith. Not only that it was from the OT as well.

Ah, I get it. Fair enough. Regardless, if God says to kill someone, be it an outsider or insider, you have to do it, right?

Don't put words in my mouth. This was not about atheist this was about evil doers.

But atheists are evil doers. "Those who say there is no God are fools, and cannot doeth good..." Or something like that.

Lul, it's hard to make a convert of a dead man.

Yeah, but its also hard for a dead man to dissuade Christians. And frankly, as has been pointed out, they're evil.

Robbie_James_Francis · Nov 8, 2009

What's Boedism?

...really, if you can't even spell something then you shouldn't be putting a video on the internet that involves it.

david_x · Nov 9, 2009

JGG said:
Ah, I get it. Fair enough. Regardless, if God says to kill someone, be it an outsider or insider, you have to do it, right?

If God says, the Church agrees, and scripture allows.

But atheists are evil doers. "Those who say there is no God are fools, and cannot doeth good..." Or something like that.

Evil doers are thieves and other lawbreakers.

Yeah, but its also hard for a dead man to dissuade Christians. And frankly, as has been pointed out, they're evil.

It's hard for a living man to dissuade a Christian. Don't think that an atheist provides a threat, false leaders are much worse.

JGG · Nov 9, 2009

david_x said:
If God says, the Church agrees, and scripture allows.

Okay. So let's look at the first link in the OP. Obviously, he didn't call his church to check if it was okay to fire a shotgun at this atheist, but considering their the-only-good-atheist-is-a-dead-one-attitude, we can't assume they would disagree. And as has been pointed out, scripture can be used to justify pretty much anything.

By the way, what's interesting about that case is that the accused murderer, cannot be ruled insane. He is completely aware of what he did, and the consequences that follow. He has been exposed to an environment which convinced him, and allowed him to kill this man, without pause, without regret, and with complete understanding of what he was doing.

In my particular experience, the man who assaulted me never apologized, never showed any form of remorse, nor did any of the people with the anti-abortion group he was with, nor did most of the people from the church he attended who placed the blame on me, and harassed me in order to get me to drop the charges. By the way, it was a $1000 fine, probation, an anger management program, and community service which he carries out at his church, which includes weekly service.

The only person who seemed to feel any regret over the matter was the pastor of the church my attacker attended. Even then, I don't think he regeretted the actual assault, but other matters that happened afterward.

Evil doers are thieves and other lawbreakers.

That can't be right. I think we'll agree that Hitler was evil, but he didn't break any federal laws in place at the time. It helps that he made the law, but still...

It's hard for a living man to dissuade a Christian. Don't think that an atheist provides a threat, false leaders are much worse.

So why do atheists pose such a threat that Christians feel the need to murder and attack them?

david_x · Nov 9, 2009

JGG said:
Okay. So let's look at the first link in the OP. Obviously, he didn't call his church to check if it was okay to fire a shotgun at this atheist, but considering their the-only-good-atheist-is-a-dead-one-attitude, we can't assume they would disagree. And as has been pointed out, scripture can be used to justify pretty much anything.

I am in no way condone the evil acts of this guy. People misuse the Bible to justify things, it does not justify everything.

That can't be right. I think we'll agree that Hitler was evil, but he didn't break any federal laws in place at the time. It helps that he made the law, but still...

I was assuming you could fill in some of the etc...

So why do atheists pose such a threat that Christians feel the need to murder and attack them?

Christians don't.

Wedjat · Nov 9, 2009

Some do, not all, in fact not most, but some.

david_x · Nov 10, 2009

Wedjat said:
Some do, not all, in fact not most, but some.

Not any. It's a fundamental belief of Christianity. There are those that claim to be Christian, but are not.

Blackmarch · Nov 10, 2009

JGG said:
Cause...
In case you were wondering, atheism is Satan's religion:

Effect:
"The only good Atheist is a Dead Atheist"

Including those who believe in evolution.

And atheists who have let you stay at their home.

See now, this is why I don't tell people that I'm an atheist any more, unless I know them well. And frankly even then, if I can avoid it, I avoid it. The truth of it is, I don't know how their religion will cause them to react to me, and what that reaction will be.

It was just under two years ago that I was physically assaulted for admitting to being an atheist and/or pro-choice. I got sucker punched, and as a result suffered a concussion, a broken nose, and a severely bruised eye socket. Why did I deserve this, you ask? Well, for one, I visited my friend and his wife who had just had twins the day before. Secondly, I'm not a Christian.

I know that according to the Bible sucker punching atheists is hardly a sin, maybe even encouraged, but how do you justify murder?

gotta love conspiracy videos.
Also with conspiracy videos it's usually the extreme believers of said conspiracy that post prevalently.

I know religious people who do not tell their peers (both religious and nonreligious of various degree) because they are afraid of some of the severe backlash that have come from the masses towards their beliefs and the people in their belief.

to counter this video...

Athiesm and/or agnosticism in some form has been around as long or about as long as religion has.
Yes satan may use athiesm.... just like he uses anything else he can get influence into (christianity is certainly not immune to such).

Jazmyn · Nov 10, 2009

The Bible shouldn't be made to say whatever we want it to, that's condemned in God's Word,
“He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3:16)

The Bible tells us to be “rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

Violence is condemned,

“At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!’” (Acts 23:2-3)

“And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.” (Luke 3:14)

“not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.” (1 Timothy 3:3)

“People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,” (2 Timothy 3:2-3)

“Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.” (Titus 1:7)

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