Catholics in terms of predestination are you a Molinist or Banezian?

[Athanasias]

All Catholic have to hold to some view of predestination. The Church recognizes 2 main acceptable views. Catholics which view of predestination do you hold? Do you hold the Banezian Catholic view(which most Dominicans hold to) or the Molinist Catholic view(which most Jesuits hold to)? Both are allowed by the Holy Father. So which is your view? Please give me some in depth explanations on why?


thanks!

 

[StevenMerten]

Hello Athanasias,

Just because the saints were there at creation, 'shouting for joy', does not mean predestination. It means that God, and those eternally Begotten of God, meaning the saints, live outside of physical time. Those born of God are omni-present with God and can experience the whole of physical time as God can.

People have free will on earth to choose whether or not they will love God through obeying God. At the end of time all people are judged by Jesus as to how they conducted themselves in life. Those who have done as Jesus commands them to do in life, are judged by Jesus into spiritual life through His blood. The saints then live in omni-presence to the whole of physical time. Those people eternally begotten of God at the end of physical time, now resurrect to sing a hymn of praise as God brings creation into existence. Some people confuse this to be predestination. It is not. It is the awesome Power of God.

http://www.apocalypseangel.com/creation.html

NAB JOB 38:7

Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who streched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

NAB DEU 32:8

When the Most High assigned the nations their heritage, when he parceled out the descendants of Adam, He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the sons of God; While the LORD’S own portion was Jacob,His hereditary share was Israel.

NAB WIS 5:5

See how he is accounted among the sons of God; how his lot is with the saints!

 

[Athanasias]

Hello Athanasias,

Just because the saints were there at creation, 'shouting for joy', does not mean predestination. It means that God, and those eternally Begotten of God, meaning the saints, live outside of physical time. Those born of God are omni-present with God and can experience the whole of physical time as God can.

People have free will on earth to choose whether or not they will love God through obeying God. At the end of time all people are judged by Jesus as to how they conducted themselves in life. Those who have done as Jesus commands them to do in life, are judged by Jesus into spiritual life through His blood. The saints then live in omni-presence to the whole of physical time. Those people eternally begotten of God at the end of physical time, now resurrect to sing a hymn of praise as God brings creation into existence. Some people confuse this to be predestination. It is not. It is the awesome Power of God.

Creation

NAB JOB 38:7

Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who streched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone, While the morning stars sang in chorus and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

NAB DEU 32:8

When the Most High assigned the nations their heritage, when he parceled out the descendants of Adam, He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the sons of God; While the LORD’S own portion was Jacob,His hereditary share was Israel.

NAB WIS 5:5

See how he is accounted among the sons of God; how his lot is with the saints!

Steve the Catholic Church officially teaches both the reality of freewill and the reality of predestination. It has to because divine revelation talk about both. We do not see free will contradicting predestination at all. So the question is which Catholic view of predestination do you hold to and why? The Molinist Catholic view or the Banezian Catholic view?Both are allowed by the Church.

They are not the only schools of thought allowed by the church on predestination but they are the two most popular.

 

[Rhamiel]

I am not very well educated on the differences

 

[StevenMerten]

Steve the Catholic Church officially teaches both the reality of freewill and the reality of predestination. It has to because divine revelation talk about both. We do not see free will contradicting predestination at all. So the question is which Catholic view of predestination do you hold to and why? The Molinist Catholic view or the Banezian Catholic view?Both are allowed by the Church.

They are not the only schools of thought allowed by the church on predestination but they are the two most popular.

Hello Athanasias,

I do not have a clue as to who Molin or Banesian are. I still wanted to join in on the discussion of predestination. So which category do you feel I fall into.

 

[Athanasias]

Hello Athanasias,

I do not have a clue as to who Molin or Banesian are. I still wanted to join in on the discussion of predestination. So which category do you feel I fall into.

Hmm thats a good question. The arguments deal with the differences in how one understands grace and the will. I am not sure. I would guess that you would be more molinistic but I am not sure. I tend to be more of a Molinist myself but I think the Banezian theory or Thomistic theory would be good to use with Calvinist who are considering the Church.

Here is a little on each CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Molinism
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Domingo Banez
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Catholic Predestination, Molinism, and Thomism in a Nutshell

And here is Catholic debate using the Thomisitic or Banesian theory in which Jimmy Akins destroys the Calvinist theory:
"CHRISTIAN ANSWERS" VS "CATHOLIC ANSWERS" DEBATE ON GOD'S PREDESTINATION: JAMES WHITE VS JAMES AKIN - YouTube

and here is a good written form of the debate with a Catholic and a Calvinist on the Banesian or Thomistic argument on predestination and freewill that shows how one can be predestined to grace but not to glory because of freewill. Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?

 

[StevenMerten]

and here is a good written form of the debate with a Catholic and a Calvinist on the Banesian or Thomistic argument on predestination and freewill that shows how one can be predestined to grace but not to glory because of freewill.

So are you saying that the Thomistic, I presume Catholic thinking, believes that God did not give equal grace to all for salvation? It sounds like this Thomistic thinking is that; some God gave enough grace for salvation and others God did not give enough grace for salvation, landing them in hell? Which is the concept of predestination.

 

[Athanasias]

So are you saying that the Thomistic, I presume Catholic thinking, believes that God did not give equal grace to all for salvation? It sounds like this Thomistic thinking is that; some God gave enough grace for salvation and others God did not give enough grace for salvation, landing them in hell? Which is the concept of predestination.

That may be correct to say that but I am not sure 100%. I am still learning. The Church allows both views so neither are heretical nor can we call either heretical. Well both St. Thomas( the Banezain theory) and Molina hold to predestination and free will but both understand grace and the will differently. Thomas efficacious grace and how that works with the will and God's predestination of one differs from Molina and some molinist. I am no expert on either and that is why I ask what others held to on this on why. I think Jimmy Akin did a bang up job on his formal debate with Calvinist James white on predestination using the Thomisitic/banesian model which the Church allows. He brings out how one can be predestined to grace or enter the Christian life but then not predestined to glory or final salvation as we have free will and mortal sin exist. There is some mystery to this. I would love to here a Banesian/Thomist explain more the concept as the Church allows it and sees it as a good possible explanation. It may help Calvinist come into the Church. It comes close to Calvinism but without the heresy of Calvinism that is condemned by the Church as it is very nuanced as Thomas was and rejects double predestination that Calvinist teach(that some are predestine to Hell). Molina's understanding of predestination, grace, and the will, seems easier to understand and also makes sense and seems to be allowed by the Church as well.

I am looking to see two peoole who can go in depth on each theory and give good point counterpoints so I can make up my mind LOL.

 

[Athanasias]

So are you saying that the Thomistic, I presume Catholic thinking, believes that God did not give equal grace to all for salvation? It sounds like this Thomistic thinking is that; some God gave enough grace for salvation and others God did not give enough grace for salvation, landing them in hell? Which is the concept of predestination.

here is a Catholic understanding of St. Thomas/Banesian theory and how close it can come to Calvinism and how it differs.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP

 

[Eretria90]

What are the definitions of molinism and banezian? I've heard of molinism but never banezian.

 

[Athanasias]

What are the definitions of molinism and banezian? I've heard of molinism but never banezian.

Good question. I listed some links above in my previous post. Banesian is also Thomistic(St. Thomas view aka the Domincan view). It comes close to the heresy of calvinism but without the heresy of double predestination(that some are predestined to go to hell) and a few other changes too such as Thomas held to free will and mortal sin are taught so that not all those predestined to enter the Christian life are predestined to final salvation because of free will. Calvinism by comparison teaches the perseverance of the saints rejects that a person can resist cooperating in the graces God gives them. Thomism or Banezian theology says one can resist in cooperating with some graces God gives.

Molinism is the Catholic view of predestination that Jesuits teach in contradiction to the Thomistic/Banesian theory that comes closer to heresy of semi pelagianism but does not and is not a heresy at all. Check out those links

 

[Tigg]

I don't get it. I have read A Tiptoe Through TULIP, and don't really get it. If
God has predestined some to be saved and go live with Him and the rest of us, left to founder, IMO that ain't very much of a God. Are we something like toys then? This one is saved and those aren't?

I believe God knows where I will end up (and everyone else) but He doesn't choose this one and that one but allows us to choose. Which does not force me into a position God wills for me. But then why crete if He knows how we all turn out. Hummm...

 

[Athanasias]

I don't get it. I have read A Tiptoe Through TULIP, and don't really get it. If
God has predestined some to be saved and go live with Him and the rest of us, left to founder, IMO that ain't very much of a God. Are we something like toys then? This one is saved and those aren't?

I believe God knows where I will end up (and everyone else) but He doesn't choose this one and that one but allows us to choose. Which does not force me into a position God wills for me. But then why crete if He knows how we all turn out. Hummm...

Well God always knows where we will end up. He is all knowing. Some of this is mysterious and these things go much deeper then just that paper. This is why I started the thread I was hoping to get a deep explanation of the Banesian/Thomistic theory and Molinist one too. Both hold to predestination and free will but see it differently. The Church allows both. I am drawn to both to understand them deeper. I like both of the concepts but both do present issues that would be helpful to understand more fully as you suggest.

 

[Praisegod Barebones]

Athanasias,

Thanks so much for starting this thread. This topic has always been of interest to me. Thanks also for Jimmy Akin's link; it was Jimmy who brought me, my wife and our two adult children into the Catholic Church - all Confirmed at once - praise God.

First off, we know that Christ died for ALL: John 3:16, Romans 2:9-10, 1Tim 2:4-6, Heb 2:9, 1John 2:2, etc. And we know that Hell is real, so the ONLY question remaining is: WHY is His atonement not universally efficacious? A Calvinist would say that some are predestined to Heaven (the Elect) whilst others (the Reprobates) are NOT. I wholeheartedly reject Calvinism because it does nothing to explain the meaning of the Bible verses quoted above. (Many years ago, before becoming Catholic, I read James Hogg's "Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner" and the horror of Calvinism made it self plain enough to me!).

Now, as a Catholic, you ask me to consider whether I side with the Molinists or the Benezians (Thomists)... Given what I've just read from Jimmy, I think I'm going to describe myself as a Molinist, and here's why. To quote from Jimmy:

This is the principal issue between Thomists and Molinists. Thomists claim this enabling grace is intrinsically efficacious; by its very nature, because of the kind of grace it is, it always produces the effect of salvation. Molinists claim God’s enabling grace is only sufficient and is made efficacious by man’s free choice rather than by the nature of the grace itself. For this reason Molinists say that enabling grace is extrinsically efficacious rather than intrinsically efficacious.

While I do accept the idea that some are more fortunate in receiving the knowledge of salvation than other, I personally believe that ultimately ALL incidents of salvation MUST come through the MEETING of God's love and free offer of salvation AND a human being's ACCEPTANCE of this free offer. i.e. grace is extrinsically efficacious rather than intrinsically efficacious To imply that SOME of the souls in Heaven are mere ROBOTS who could not possibly reject the offer of salvation is preposterous! God wants to give and receive our love; you cannot love a robot. It seems

Molinists believe that FREE WILL must be a part of salvation, and that makes me a Molinist.

Am I making sense? Or have I missed the point?

 

[steve_bakr]

According to Catholic theologian, Karl Rahner, who was also a Jesuit, grace is available to all people at all times. We are all "thrown," if you will, into our circumstances in life, and thus have limitations. But within these limitations, we have the integrity of free will. Rahner disagreed with the pre-destinationism of Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

I'm a non-predestinationist.

 

[Praisegod Barebones]

According to Catholic theologian, Karl Rahner, who was also a Jesuit, grace is available to all people at all times. We are all "thrown," if you will, into our circumstances in life, and thus have limitations. But within these limitations, we have the integrity of free will. Rahner disagreed with the pre-destinationism of Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin.

Thanks for that, Steve. I agree with Rahner. Note that scripture records the Virgin Mary's ACCEPTANCE of the plan of salvation: "And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” - Luke 1:38 Even though Mary was the ONLY human being at that moment entirely without sin (she being immaculately conceived)...nevertheless the angel Gabriel STILL waits for her consent before departing. If anybody was ever predestined to Heaven it was Mary, and yet scripture does not fail to record her ACCEPTANCE... because salvation is ALWAYS dependent upon FREE WILL.

 

[Michie]

I've always thought Molinism made the most sense. I think the providence of God works with human freewill. God knows everything that will happen but still gives us the choice to act in accordance of our own freewill. In other words...we choose but God pretty much knows the outcome. Regardless, He still provides grace & mercy to us whether we choose badly or not. It almost seems like an experiment to me as if one of us might one day surprise him. But that's my own silly ponderings.