Catholic teaching on Salvation

[Christy4Christ]

Hi everyone,

First I want to say that my wish for this thread is that everyone will remain calm and civil. I think it is important for us to be able to discuss this without wanting to jump through the screen and choke each other! There has been a lot of talk and a little confusion today over this issue and I feel it's something that should be discussed. There was a thread on this sometime ago and it was closed because we couldn't seem to get along. It's one thing to disagree and state our point of view and even the reasons we disagree but it is another to start fighting. Can we try and talk about this? I have a lot to learn and I am sure there are others here who do as well.

First, what is everyone's outlook on Salvation? How does one hope to acquire salvation? What must we do to obtain this gift? What does the Catholic church teach on this issue?

I have noticed that there seem to be some people who don't quite agree on what the Church's position on Salvation really means. I'd like to see the different views on that.

It is my personal belief that unless one has never heard the gospel, they must accept Jesus as the Son of God. I do not believe that ignorance goes beyond that point. I'm starting this thread knowing many will disagree, at the end I hope we will all see each others positions better.

The floor is open

 

[Thomas Joseph]

"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I've always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic. We believe our work should be our example to people. We have among us 475 souls - 30 families are Catholics and the rest are all Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs - all different religions. But they all come to our prayers. There are so many religions and each one has its different ways of following God. I follow Christ: Jesus is my God, Jesus is my Spouse, Jesus is my Life, Jesus is my only Love, Jesus is my All in All; Jesus is my Everything." - Mother Teresa of Calcutta

 

[Michelina]

It is my personal belief that unless one has never heard the gospel, they must accept Jesus as the Son of God. I do not believe that ignorance goes beyond that point. I'm starting this thread knowing many will disagree, at the end I hope we will all see each others positions better.

But suppose someone hasn't really ever heard the Gospel as it really is, Christy? Suppose someone only knows a very lopsided view of it? Suppose someone was raised in a very Calvinist home where there was a lot of emphasis on predestination? Or in a home with a very puritanical or life-hating views? Or in a Jewish home with a very negative demonizing mythology of Christians and Christianity?

Let's start here: God is fair. Therefore, He won't reject someone who, according to the dictates of their (mistaken) conscience, reject what they think the Gospel is.

 

[Christy4Christ]

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Listen Christy- here is where I have a huge difficulty:

Say someone here in America grows up in an average household- but has parents who yell, argue, don't pay much attention to the children- end up divorced, use the kids to get back at one another, as an attempt to feel loved the child as an adolescent abuses his or her body through sex, drugs, and alcohol-- which leads to an even worse self image, and greater sense of unloveability, which then is made manifest through an adulthood of relationships with people like their parents that are harmful and make them fell even more unloved-- one day they die, never having had anyone to pray for them--- in America, it is unlikely that they have never heard of Jesus or the Gospel-- yet very likely they have not the state of mind or soul --to accept the love of God-- that they are entrenched in feeling, being convinced that they are unloveable and therefore push God away. See I don't feel like they were truly free in that choice-- and I don't think that example is an anamoly. Personally I think that is a very common scenario.... I don't mean to negate free will or personal accountability, but I think the matter of Salvation is far more complex than we humans can see in our linear-only mode of thought (as opposed to God who can see everything!)

I don't know if others agree, but again I think it is a fruitless discussion- as we are called to preach the Gospel to everyone at all times- though our thoughts, words, and actions. We are called to pray for the conversion of everyone to the One True Faith. What does it matter who is saved? Witness always. Pray without ceasing. Avail yourself of the Sacraments. Do all that you can to root out sin. Not because you fear Hell- but because you love your Jesus, and know how much He loves you, and how sad it makes Him when we sin, and when others don't know how much they are loved by Him.

 

[Michelina]

Why, Christy? It's a good question and thread.

 

[Christy4Christ]

But suppose someone hasn't really ever heard the Gospel as it really is, Christy? Suppose someone only knows a very lopsided view of it? Suppose someone was raised in a very Calvinist home where there was a lot of emphasis on predestination? Or in a home with a very puritanical or life-hating views? Or in a Jewish home with a very negative demonizing mythology of Christians and Christianity?

Let's start here: God is fair. Therefore, He won't reject someone who, according to the dictates of their (mistaken) conscience, reject what they think the Gospel is.

Michelina, even if they have the essentials mixed up with Predistination and all of these things, they still are centered in Christ. As for the rest I can't really answer. I know that I would never be helping someone become a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Buddhist. I am sorry to hear that it was Mother Teresa who said that because now I will probably be in trouble for not agreeing with that.

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I am sorry to hear that it was Mother Teresa who said that because now I will probably be in trouble for not agreeing with that.

Don't fret- it's one of those things- that needs to be looked at in the greater context-- she is speaking of witnessing through their work-- not actively trying to convert those who are around them. Not actively trying to convert those who they are helping. But allowing Christ to be seen through them as they work. This is the great difficulty when we use bits and pieces from anybody's words....

 

[Michelina]

I know that I would never be helping someone become a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Buddhist. I am sorry to hear that it was Mother Teresa who said that because now I will probably be in trouble for not agreeing with that.

I agree with you on Mother Teresa, Christy. She could have said "We help people to be better people" or something like that. I have never liked that remark. It is somewhat ambiguous and could seem somewhat "indifferentist". Indifferentism has been condemned by the Popes, repeatedly.

 

[Christy4Christ]

This is the great difficulty when we use bits and pieces from anybody's words....

I would say so...

 

[artnalex]

Michelina, even if they have the essentials mixed up with Predistination and all of these things, they still are centered in Christ. As for the rest I can't really answer. I know that I would never be helping someone become a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Buddhist. I am sorry to hear that it was Mother Teresa who said that because now I will probably be in trouble for not agreeing with that.

Don't worry about whether or not you see eye-to-eye with Mother Theresa, Christy.

As for your original question, are you looking for the Church's position on salvation or are you looking for OUR individual belief in this regard (allthewhile knowing that we are infallible)?

 

[geocajun]

This is a pretty long post I made on the subject of salvation in Catholic teaching that you might find helpful: http://www.christianforums.com/t80333

 

[Christy4Christ]

I know what the Cathecism says on this issue, it's just that I have seen Catholics with what I consider pretty different ideas of what it means .This is frightening to me, and so I want to see what the general consensus here is.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

<H2>IV. HOW CAN WE SPEAK ABOUT GOD?

39 In defending the ability of human reason to know God, the Church is expressing her confidence in the possibility of speaking about him to all men and with all men, and therefore of dialogue with other religions, with philosophy and science, as well as with unbelievers and atheists.

40 Since our knowledge of God is limited, our language about him is equally so. We can name God only by taking creatures as our starting point, and in accordance with our limited human ways of knowing and thinking.

41 All creatures bear a certain resemblance to God, most especially man, created in the image and likeness of God. The manifold perfections of creatures - their truth, their goodness, their beauty all reflect the infinite perfection of God. Consequently we can name God by taking his creatures" perfections as our starting point, "for from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator".[15]

42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, imagebound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God--"the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable"--with our human representations.[16] Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God. 43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that "between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude";[17] and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."[18]

</H2>
God says that all those that reject His son will be condemned because they have rejected the only Son of God. The Catholic church teaches this, and we are to understand it to mean a true rejection of the true Son of God, not our feeble representation of Him. We should concentrate more fully on presenting a clearer picture of Christ to the world, and stop condemning people that have rejected our story of Jesus.

That being said, we that know the Catholic faith as the fullness of the Christian faith are not free to believe whatever we want, because we already know the truth. God has manifest this truth in our hearts, to reject it would be absurd, and bring condemnation. Those of us that know and love the truth should rejoice and share this love of God with as many as possible.

 

[Christy4Christ]

That was not what I asked...I wanted to know how YOU as an individual interpret this teaching. I want to hear personal opinions of what the teaching means. If you have nothing to add that is fine but thats really the stuff I am looking for in this thread

 

[Benedicta00]

Christy,

Those who aren't saved are those who turn away from the conviction of the Holy Spirit and deny the need of grace or mercy in their lives. Apply this to whatever faith there is. Only God can judge who knew the truth and rejected it, not seeing it important to their lives and who rejected out of true ignorance.

My take on the whole matter is God judges. To whom much is given, much more is expected.

 

[Roald]

I am of the opinion that God will look into each of our hearts as we are judged. Matthew, Chapter 25 gives the best description of the criteria used in judgment, in my opinion.

In everyone, God works through his grace. How we respond that to that grace is the determinate of our individuals destinies.

 

[Roald]

...from Matthew, Chapter 25...

31 14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 17 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' 44 18 Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?' 45 He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

good stuff!

Strangely enough, this doesn't mention faith at all. (Not that I am dismissing faith...)

 

[Christy4Christ]

Christy,

Those who aren't saved are those who turn away from the conviction of the Holy Spirit and deny the need of grace or mercy in their lives. Apply this to whatever faith there is. Only God can judge who knew the truth and rejected it, not seeing it important to their lives and who rejected out of true ignorance.

My take on the whole matter is God judges. To whom much is given, much more is expected.

Shelb I agree but I see alot of people taking a very relaxed stance on this and that worries me, as someone in the last thread said it is like "New Age Heresy" It's like giving people permission to be whoever they want as long as they are good people. So if someone shares the same God that has now become the standard for salvation? I have heard some very frightening views. Mainly I want to see where everyone is coming from on this because to be painfully honest, some of what I have heard sounds an awful lot like the ushering in of a one world faith. I can easily see that developing out of these relaxed views.

 

[ps139]

I think it comes down to this - who do you love more? God? or yourself?
Depending on who a person loves more, their actions will bear those fruits.

I believe God is Perfectly Merciful and Perfectly Just.