Catholic questions

[IKTCA]

Please note that I changed my icon to Catholic. My denominational history: baptized in the Catholic church, found in the Methodist church, returned to Catholic church, currently home churching.

I would like to bring up an issue that often turns discussions into bitter disputes. I believe we believers at Deeper Fellowship are mature and can have brotherly/sisterly conversation.

Does what we Catholics say about Mary bother Protestant brothers and sisters to the extent of categorically rejecting us? Say Mary's virginity for life. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?

What about Mary's immaculate conception. In other words, Mary born of no sin. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?

(Say Catholics were wrong on both doctrines.) By erring with these doctrines, are Catholics rejecting the very foundation of Christian faith?

Rupert

 

[Ginga]

I am not Catholic or Protestant, but i am curious about a few things and would like to ask about them (sorry if i'm not meant to post here). I have been brought up in a christian family all my life, and in a baptist christian family, and so i don't know about the differences between the differing denominations.

Say Mary's virginity for life

Does this mean that Catholics believe that Mary remained a virgin all her life and didn't have sexual relations with Jospeh after the birth of Jesus? I think i must be misreading this, cause if Jesus was to have siblings, such as James, then Mary would of had to have sex with Joseph. Can someone clear this up for me please.

What about Mary's immaculate conception. In other words, Mary born of no sin

Are you referring to Jesus being born of no sin, or Mary herself? Cause i am under the impression that only one person, Jesus himself was born and did not sin.

Once again, i'm sorry if i have posted in the wrong area, i am just curious as to what other denominations (in this case Catholic) believe.

Your brother in Christ
David

 

[Macca]

Please note that I changed my icon to Catholic. My denominational history: baptized in the Catholic church, found in the Methodist church, returned to Catholic church, currently home churching.

I would like to bring up an issue that often turns discussions into bitter disputes. I believe we believers at Deeper Fellowship are mature and can have brotherly/sisterly conversation.

Does what we Catholics say about Mary bother Protestant brothers and sisters to the extent of categorically rejecting us? Say Mary's virginity for life. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?

What about Mary's immaculate conception. In other words, Mary born of no sin. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?

(Say Catholics were wrong on both doctrines.) By erring with these doctrines, are Catholics rejecting the very foundation of Christian faith?

Rupert

The only area I wish to comment on at this time is the final question.
Galations 4: 4 certainly suggests to me that Mary ( a very holy and revered woman) was born ion sin. The Immaculate Conception, as I see it, occured in her (Jesus) not to her.
Macca.

 

[fishstix]

I am not Catholic or Protestant, but i am curious about a few things and would like to ask about them (sorry if i'm not meant to post here). I have been brought up in a christian family all my life, and in a baptist christian family, and so i don't know about the differences between the differing denominations.



Does this mean that Catholics believe that Mary remained a virgin all her life and didn't have sexual relations with Jospeh after the birth of Jesus? I think i must be misreading this, cause if Jesus was to have siblings, such as James, then Mary would of had to have sex with Joseph. Can someone clear this up for me please.

I believe that one way the two concepts are reconciled is the hypothesis that James, etc. were half-brothers with Jesus. Half-brothers could have been referred to simply as 'brothers'. There is the possibility that Joseph had been previously married to someone else and fathered some children. If his wife died or something, he could have gotten remarried - to Mary. If that was the case, then Jesus could have had brothers without his mother actually having any other children. Like I said, this is just one theory.

Are you referring to Jesus being born of no sin, or Mary herself? Cause i am under the impression that only one person, Jesus himself was born and did not sin.

The concept of 'immaculate conception' refers to Mary, not Jesus. It states that she was born without original sin. As I understand it, that doesn't mean never sinning in one's life - it means being born as a baby without sin; not 'inheritting' original sin from Adam and Eve; and thus not passing 'inheritted' original sin on to one's child (Jesus). Perhaps someone with a better training in Catholic theology could give a better explanation.

I'm not sure what the conception of Jesus by the Holy Spirit is called, but I think it's something other than 'immaculate conception'.

 

[StAnselm]

It's interesting that the two points are often discussed together, but they really are quite separate. The perpetual virginity isn't a big issue as far as I can see - having sex would her husband wouldn't have discredited Mary in any way, but (apart from the references to our Lord's brothers) I don't see why Protestants need to make a big fuss about the Catholic belief. It doesn't seem much different to believing in C. S. Lewis' perpetual virginity.

On the other hand, I think the sinlessness of Mary is a serious error. Quite apart from the logical problem (what about Mary's mother?) it damages the uniqueness of Christ, and is in confliect with the concept of original sin. As such, it strikes at the very heart of the gospel.

 

[Lilli]

It has no scriptual basis - but it does not 'offend' me that Catholics believe this. Additionaly, the word 'immaculate' does not even appear in the scriptures - the phrase was coined in 1854 by Pope Pius IX.

IMHO - If we look at the literal translation and definitions of the words - immaculate - means pure, clean. Conception means the process of becoming pregnant - fertilization. So, we have a pure (i.e. Holy Spirit) fertilization - Mary was impregnated with the seed of God via the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:26-38). Maybe I am over simplifying but it seems rather straight forward to me.

My comments are not meant to offend anyone! They are merely my opinions.

 

[Dicy mind]

I'm not a protestant but I agree with stAnselm and would like to say something about mary. Mary was not equal to Jesus or John the Baptist and this can be verified by reading matthew 11:11.

Matthew 11:11 (KJ)
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. John the Baptist was greatest one born of women walking on earth before Jesus but the least in heaven.

Jesus who is God is the only one without sin. Think it is really wrong to say that some one else would be sinless because it's the same as promoting some as equal to God.

 

[vinc]

Does what we Catholics say about Mary bother Protestant brothers and sisters to the extent of categorically rejecting us? Say Mary's virginity for life. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?
No. The Exact Truth about Mary's virginity for life is a minor issue. Catholics believe that Mary was a virgin throughout her life whereas Protestants believe that Joseph and Mary would have had sexual intercourse like any other married couple on earth based on the verse Matthew 1:25. The Protestants also believe that Mary was a virgin until Lord Jesus Christ was born and that Mary was one of the most blessed among women. Protestants would never be offended just because of a minor difference in belief/doctrine.

What about Mary's immaculate conception. In other words, Mary born of no sin. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?
No. This also would not offend any Protestants because it is just a matter of one's own belief until one gets to know the Exact Truth in the future. However, a Protestant may be surprised that it is a contrary belief and would hope that Exact Truth about this matter be revealed to the Catholic.

(Say Catholics were wrong on both doctrines.) By erring with these doctrines, are Catholics rejecting the very foundation of Christian faith?
Mary's being a virgin throughout her life may not effect the very foundation of Christian Faith but the belief that Mary was born sinless and lived a sinless life could really effect the very foundation of Christian Faith because the Bible clearly says that only Lord Jesus Christ was the sinless lamb who was worthy of sacrifice for all mankind. The Bible also says that only Lord Jesus Christ was found worthy to open a certain Heavenly Book in Revelations Chapter 5. Although the Catholics may regard Mary as sinless, if they consider Lord Jesus Christ as Lord, Saviour, Son-God, part of the Holy Trinity (or Triune God) and as the only Mediator between God and Man then they would not be greatly erring (because it is nothing wrong in considering a particular human being as good, noble and sinless).

Doctrines apart, I have found both Protestants and Catholics good, noble, holy, wonderful, godly, loving and worth following in some areas.

A true christian would never have hatred to another christian group just because of doctrinal differences although s(he) may not be able to closely work with those christian groups due to doctrinal differences. So, although a christian loves another human, still s(he) may not be able to closely work with those christian groups (all the time) due to doctrinal differences.

This is my honest opinion. Lord bless you.

 

[Pilgrim1951]

It's interesting that the two points are often discussed together, but they really are quite separate. The perpetual virginity isn't a big issue as far as I can see - having sex would her husband wouldn't have discredited Mary in any way, but (apart from the references to our Lord's brothers) I don't see why Protestants need to make a big fuss about the Catholic belief. It doesn't seem much different to believing in C. S. Lewis' perpetual virginity.

On the other hand, I think the sinlessness of Mary is a serious error. Quite apart from the logical problem (what about Mary's mother?) it damages the uniqueness of Christ, and is in confliect with the concept of original sin. As such, it strikes at the very heart of the gospel.

I am in total agreement with StAnselm's post.

I would like to ask the Catholics how these particular doctrines about Mary came about? Are there scriptures on which these belief's about our Lord's mother are based? I am ignorant regarding Catholic doctrine so any information I can have will be greatly appreciated.

 

[IKTCA]

Thank you for the replies, brothers and sisters. One noticeable observation I can draw from your posts is that Mary's sinlessness (Immaculate conception means this) is offending our Protestant brothers and sisters. Since we are saved by Jesus, cleansed by Jesus' blood, and sanctified by Jesus' words, not by Mary, we can set aside this doctrine without negating our faith or denying Jesus. Why don't we set Mary's sinlessness doctrine aside when we talk to our Protestant brothers and sister? For we are commanded to accept our brothers and sisters better than ourselves. Is this acceptable to the Catholic brothers and sisters of Deeper Fellowship?

Rupert

 

[ps139]

Does what we Catholics say about Mary bother Protestant brothers and sisters to the extent of categorically rejecting us? Say Mary's virginity for life. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?

I do not think it should, honestly (although I am not Protestant so I cannot speak for Protestants). But I do know that some of the reformers and preachers that Protestants respect very much, such as Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wesley, and more, believed that Mary was a virgin for life.

Some examples:

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

I believe... He [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as she brought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.

more to be found here: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ460.HTM

In other words, if some of the famous Protestant leaders in history believed this doctrine, it does not seem to me like it should be a major source of division or discord between Protestants and Catholics.

I agree that Mary's sinlessness is a bigger issue to overcome.

 

[SoulFly51]

I'm just a Christian. Not Catholic.

Does what we Catholics say about Mary bother Protestant brothers and sisters to the extent of categorically rejecting us?

I don't know about categorically rejecting the church members, but I definatly reject many of the teachings of the Catholic church.

Say Mary's virginity for life. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?

No offense, but that's a ridiculous notion in my opinion. Does the Catholic church teach this? She had other children besides Jesus.

What about Mary's immaculate conception. In other words, Mary born of no sin. Does this offend Protestant brothers and sisters?

I am not offended by that teaching at all. I agree with it. But, I do not believe babies go to hell if they die unbaptized or not. I believe all babies and little children to be innocent in the eyes of God.

(Say Catholics were wrong on both doctrines.) By erring with these doctrines, are Catholics rejecting the very foundation of Christian faith?

Those doctrines, no I wouldn't personally say so.

But, there are a few other Catholic doctrines that would probably prompt me to. For instance, Mary being co-redempterous is offensive and heretical in my opinion.

 

[1GODALONE]

I have a question for Catholics. Why consider yourselves Catholic instead of Christian? We believe alot of the same things, and all of what Christians believe comes directly from the bible, unlike Catholicism.

 

[IKTCA]

Wes,
Welcome back from honeymoon! Please tell us what it is like to get married. It's been too many years to remember my wedding.

As pointed out by Ps139, Mary's sinlessness is a sticky issue between Catholics and Protestants. (Once Mary becomes sinless, she can participate in the Lord's redemptive work, though it is not a church sactioned doctrine afaik) I think it is best not to focus on this difference and stay focused on obeying Jesus' commands. That is my plea to all.

As far as I can tell, Mary's sinlessness is not even a point of concern to many (if not most) Catholics. All my friends from the Bible study and prayer groups were not interested in Mary's sinlessness at all. We were busy learning Jesus' teachings and obeying them. A few of us had family members who were sick and we were too occupied with asking healing from Jesus. We never spent a minute of our time on Mary's sinlessness. No one asked Mary to heal us.

Catholics may appear to be wrapped up with man-made doctrines and are all blinded by them, but are not. It is because of the power of God's words recorded in the Bible. False doctrines, regardless of denomination, are powerless before the words of God and those who read and obey them. Can you imagine former Islamists getting saved by the power of his words recorded in the Bible? If the thick deceiving veil that the Enemy put on Islamists is of no match to the power of Jesus' words, man-made doctrines are of even less resistance. Hallelujah!

So I ask you to accept Catholics as fellow believers. If some insist on Mary's sinlessness as if their entire faith rested on this single doctrine (sometimes you may feel that way), leave them to the power of Jesus' words. Protestants also have man-made doctrines such as speaking in tongues as sign of salvation, unless you are predestined you can do nothing to gain salvation, salvation is only in keeping the Sabbath on Saturdays, etc.

Many joyful days to Mr. and Mrs. Wes!

1GodAlone,
I hope what I wrote answered your question, too.
Rupert

 

[ps139]

I have a question for Catholics. Why consider yourselves Catholic instead of Christian? We believe alot of the same things, and all of what Christians believe comes directly from the bible, unlike Catholicism.

Hello brother.
We are Catholic Christians. Just as you might find Pentecostal Christians and Lutheran Christians and Evangelical Christians. You are right that not all of what we believe is explicit in the Bible. We hold the Bible in the highest regard but we do not view it as the sole source of all doctrine. But we also believe that our doctrines do not contradict the Bible. Simply put, we interpret some things differently. The important thing is that we both worship Our Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior. And we trust entirely in Him for our salvation.

 

[Macca]

Thank you for the replies, brothers and sisters. One noticeable observation I can draw from your posts is that Mary's sinlessness (Immaculate conception means this) is offending our Protestant brothers and sisters. Since we are saved by Jesus, cleansed by Jesus' blood, and sanctified by Jesus' words, not by Mary, we can set aside this doctrine without negating our faith or denying Jesus. Why don't we set Mary's sinlessness doctrine aside when we talk to our Protestant brothers and sister? For we are commanded to accept our brothers and sisters better than ourselves. Is this acceptable to the Catholic brothers and sisters of Deeper Fellowship?

Rupert

Rupert,
I will make that a disclaimer when I discuss Biblical issues with someone from a different denomination; "let us discuss things we agree on, not things we disagree about; your thoughts are spot on.
Macca.

 

[IKTCA]

And we trust entirely in Him for our salvation.

How I love this statement! Imagine all our Seventh Day Adventist brothers said, "We believe it's better for us to observe the Sabbath. But that doesn't make our need for Jesus any less. Like you, we are saved only by the grace of the Lord Jesus." Wouldn't it be wonderful? How could the Sabbath observation be a dispute?

What if all my Catholic brothers said, "We observe many church traditions and we give due respect to The Blessed Woman. But, by no means, that lessens our need for Jesus. Like you, we are solely saved by the grace of Jesus." How could Catholics and Protestants dispute on doctrinal differences?

Will my Protestant brothers say the same? "We removed all church traditions and hierarchies. The words of God in the Bible are all we need to reach the throne of the Lord. The same Lord Jesus will deliver you only if you seek him whichever denomination you may belong."

How much will we be able to honor Jesus when all brothers from all denominations speak the same confession? Amen.

Brother Macca,
I am of the same mind.

Rupert

 

[fieldlily]

quote:

/I believe that one way the two concepts are reconciled is the hypothesis that James, etc. were half-brothers with Jesus. Half-brothers could have been referred to simply as 'brothers'. There is the possibility that Joseph had been previously married to someone else and fathered some children. If his wife died or something, he could have gotten remarried - to Mary. If that was the case, then Jesus could have had brothers without his mother actually having any other children. Like I said, this is just one theory. /



I have also heard it explained that the term brothers in Greek (language in which the NT is written) can also refer to brethren or brotherhood--thus fraternity. Like when Christians call one another brothers and sisters.

 

[fieldlily]

Hello brother.
We are Catholic Christians. Just as you might find Pentecostal Christians and Lutheran Christians and Evangelical Christians. You are right that not all of what we believe is explicit in the Bible. We hold the Bible in the highest regard but we do not view it as the sole source of all doctrine. But we also believe that our doctrines do not contradict the Bible. Simply put, we interpret some things differently. The important thing is that we both worship Our Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior. And we trust entirely in Him for our salvation.

Thanks Ps 139 (one of my favorite psalms). I have never it heard explained so well.