PaladinValer
Traditional Orthodox Anglican
- Apr 7, 2004
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Well said!
With few exceptions, reformed Protestantism is rife with legalism; more over, most are works oriented. One example is baptism; often times it must be done, and it must be done "just so", yet they consider it "symbolic only" with no efficacy what so ever... I never could get my head around that one.
Well said!
With few exceptions, reformed Protestantism is rife with legalism; more over, most are works oriented. One example is baptism; often times it must be done, and it must be done "just so", yet they consider it "symbolic only" with no efficacy what so ever... I never could get my head around that one.
Well said!
With few exceptions, reformed Protestantism is rife with legalism; more over, most are works oriented. One example is baptism; often times it must be done, and it must be done "just so", yet they consider it "symbolic only" with no efficacy what so ever... I never could get my head around that one.
What efficacy do you think it imparts?
What efficacy do you think it imparts?
I've visited a Luteran church before and found the rituals and communion very similar to the Catholic church. Legalism, tradition and rituals are common in many churches. Task masters instruct the congregations that are orientated towards a semi- liberated theology of one foot in the Old Testament Covenant and one foot in the New. All those rituals under the Law were fulfilled by Christ.
"Behold, days are coming declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant which i will make with the house of israel after those days, decdlares th Lord, I wil put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people". Jer. 31:31-33
The Old Testament Temple contained the Most Holy Place with the Ark of the Covenant and God Himself dwelled, the veil separated it from the Holy Place that contained the Lampstand, Altar of Incense and the Table of Showbread. Outside in the courtyard was the Bronze Laver and Altar for Burnt Offerings. Each one of these parts of the Temple were designed specifically to point to the future Temple in Us. We are the Temple and all the functions of the Old are now symbolic of the New. If you want to see what your invisible design looks like, look at the Old Temple.
Jesus is our High Priest and Sacrificial Lamb who enters into our hearts (Temple) with His word and the veil is lifted. The Most Holy Place is where the Holy Spirit dwells and communes with our new spirit, the Holy Place represents our souls, composed of our mind, will and emotions. The spirit and soul together are the heart of man. The courtyard represents our body. Out soul and body are where sin dwells. The Table of Showbread contained the bread and wine that represents our fellowship (communion) with God. The Lamp stand was always lit and it represents righteousness and since Jesus is the Light, we are enabled to see spiritually. The church is the "body of Christ" represented by the lampstand. The Bronze Laver was used for cleansing before entering the tabernacle to perform sacrifices. It represents the cleansing of the new believer, the baptism by water and our willingness to receive forgivness and spiritual cleansing.
The Old Testament Temple was clearly designed with the New Temple in mind. The parts and functions of the Temple are today symbolic.
The performance and participation of any of those functions today would negate that Jesus fulfilled them. However, we are told to be baptized as an act of obedience and an outward expression of an inward spiritual cleansing. Just like the showbread and wine back then are used symbolically today. Whew!!!!
Ronald, appart from the anti-historical nature of your theology, what you say here is totally at odds with Scripture. The Lord did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Sacrifice DOES NOT STOP with the death and Resurrection of Christ. This is the profecy of Malachi:
"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11)
What is this "clean oblation" that the Gentiles offer "in every place", if it is not the Sacrifice of Christ at every Holy Mass? For this oblation to be offered to God there must be a victim (there is no sacrifice without a victim). For there to be a "clean oblation", sometimes translated as "spotless oblation", the victim must be Christ Himself. Can YOU make a perfectly clean sacrifice to God, you a sinner, an imperfect being? No. This makes it clear that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
Baptism is a topic for another thread, and there have been lots of them; I'm sure you have seen them.
Ronald, appart from the anti-historical nature of your theology, what you say here is totally at odds with Scripture. The Lord did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Sacrifice DOES NOT STOP with the death and Resurrection of Christ. This is the profecy of Malachi:
"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11)
What is this "clean oblation" that the Gentiles offer "in every place", if it is not the Sacrifice of Christ at every Holy Mass? For this oblation to be offered to God there must be a victim (there is no sacrifice without a victim). For there to be a "clean oblation", sometimes translated as "spotless oblation", the victim must be Christ Himself. Can YOU make a perfectly clean sacrifice to God, you a sinner, an imperfect being? No. This makes it clear that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
It's not a what, but a who. Forgive your brother so you are clean.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Don't trample on the blood.
It's not a what, but a who. Forgive your brother so you are clean.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Don't trample on the blood.
I wrote that you can´t have a sacrifice without a victim. We can offer ourselves as victims to God, but only in union with the truly "clean oblation", the Sacrifice of Christ, which is offered up at every Mass.
"Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting." (From the Offertory of the Missale Romanum of 1962)
Legalism...you are accusing Lutherans, of all people, of legalism...
No, not entirely but be honest, examine your church. Even my Four Square Church contained legalism to some extant along with other false doctrines.
The more you teach the Mosaic Law and enforce the Ten Commandments, the veil covers your head. When you read the New Testament of Grace through faith, the veil gets lifted.
"But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."2Cor.3:15,16 NKJV Are you saying that this is farfetched?
Many pastors and their churches contain a theology that is both faith + works = salvation or faith + Law along with a little guilt = salvation. Examine your church or any denomination, you will find pastors and/or members that are legalistic. Don't think your church is perfect. Read the seven letters to the seven church in Revelation and you'll find that back when they got started, they had many promblems not just with legalism but sin. Only two were without critism, Philadelphia the faithful church and Smyrna, the persecuted. We find a mixture of all these problems in modern churches, with pastors, members all having a little leaven in their bread.
Ronald, appart from the anti-historical nature of your theology, what you say here is totally at odds with Scripture. The Lord did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. The Sacrifice DOES NOT STOP with the death and Resurrection of Christ. This is the profecy of Malachi:
"For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." (Malachi 1:11)
The sacrifice was a once and for all sacrifice. All we can offer is the sacrifice of praise. All you can say is THANK YOU VERY MUCH --PERIOD!
Notice, your bringing up an OT scripture, a reference to gentiles before Christ's sacrifice! ???
"But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.Matt. 9:13
Oblation is the same as offering and we do give offerings in many ways reflecting on how we love our neighbors.
These Catholic / Protestant differences will not resolve between us so let's just agree to disagree.
No one has been talking about baptism, but about eucharist.
How is the eucharist efficacious?
RC teaches the efficacy of the cross is brought to you by the duly ordained priest at the RC altar.
What do you think?
I wrote that you can´t have a sacrifice without a victim. We can offer ourselves as victims to God, but only in union with the truly "clean oblation", the Sacrifice of Christ, -snip-
As our confessions have elaborated on, it seems clear enough from Scripture that the Efficacy of the Eucharist comes from, and only from, our Lord Jesus Christ. His words and the elements of bread and wine together make the sacrament. To say that we have a part in it is wrong, that implies that we can cooperate in our own salvation, which, in turn, takes some of the credit away from our Lord, cheapening what He has done for all mankind.
To Chris Fleming,
[It's not a what, but a who. Forgive your brother so you are clean.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Don't trample on the blood.]
This is not my post, nor do I know the context of it. ???
You are implying to me that, like RC, the efficacy is only available at the eucharist. Is that what you think?
The sacrifice was a once and for all sacrifice. All we can offer is the sacrifice of praise. All you can say is THANK YOU VERY MUCH --PERIOD!
Notice, your bringing up an OT scripture, a reference to gentiles before Christ's sacrifice! ???
"But go and learn what this means: I desire mercy and not sacrifice. For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.Matt. 9:13
Oblation is the same as offering and we do give offerings in many ways reflecting on how we love our neighbors.
These Catholic / Protestant differences will not resolve between us so let's just agree to disagree.
Regarding the Eucharist, yes. It's benefits are eternal though!
So, if one doesn't partake of the eucharist with your priest, the efficacy of the cross isn't available? That's the RC and L implication?
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