Carnivores and the Fall

Explain why it took physical death to atone and purge our sin if our sin's penalty was only spiritual death?

Click to expand...

Because it was a new covenant between God and His people. Just as an animal sacrifice was necessary as the sign of atonement for a spiritual failure, so it was with Jesus. It was a vicarious sacrifice, but it had to be visible and it had to involve us.

If He came to save us from physical death, He failed. Even those of us who follow him will die physically. But we can have eternal life in Him anyway.

Jig said:

Let's discuss the reasoning behind animal sacrifice.

God required animal sacrifices so that mankind could receive atonement for their sins (Leviticus 4:35; 5:10). The animal served as a substitute--that is, the animal physically died in place of the sinner.

Click to expand...

Suppose my younger brother knocks over a precious vase and shatters it. I promise to help him buy a new one, if he does some of my share of the chores around the house.

The rightful consequence of his breaking the vase is him working to earn money and then buying a new vase;
the actual consequence, because of my "atoning" for him, is him doing various household chores that really have nothing to do with buying a vase.

God decreed a system of atonement involving animal death as a consequence of sin. That in itself tells us nothing about whether our own physical death is a consequence of sin.

Also, animal sacrifice really isn't fundamental or vital to the forgiveness of sins. The Promise predated the Law by 430 years, and how was Abraham made righteous? He believed, and this faith was credited to him as righteousness; nowhere in Genesis do we read of Abraham offering sacrifices for his sin, though he often offered sacrifices in thanksgiving.

genez said:

What I said was getting right to the heart of the matter. It was not name calling. It was pointing to the problem.

Just the same, I can appreciate your desire to deny any wrong doing.

As you wish... .

Click to expand...

So you back you unsupported insight into the real meaning of scripture, with a prophetic revelation of the hearts of those who disagree with you. And of course disagreeing with you is wrong doing. Just sounds cultic to me Genez. Sorry.

Jig said:

Let's discuss the reasoning behind animal sacrifice.

God required animal sacrifices so that mankind could receive atonement for their sins (Leviticus 4:35; 5:10). The animal served as a substitute--that is, the animal physically died in place of the sinner.

First, the animal had to be spotless. Next, the person offering the sacrifice had to identify with the animal. Then the person offering the animal had to inflict physical death upon it. When done in faith, this sacrifice provided atonement for sins. The animal sacrifices were only symbolic and prophetic. The death of the Messiah is the reality to which those symbols pointed, and it accomplished what they only adumbrated. The OT sacrifices atoned for sin, but our Lord’s physcial death and sacrifice purged our sin away.

Explain why it took physical death to atone and purge our sin if our sin's penalty was only spiritual death?

Click to expand...

Our biggest problem is that spiritual death from our sin combines physical death from our mortality, leaving us cut off from God for all eternity. How does Christ redeem our soul from the pit if he has not gone there himself?

I think there are other factors at work too. The cross destroys the power of sin. It puts our sin to death. Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. The cross is also Christ sharing his life with us. We share in his death and resurrection, dying to our old self and sin and raised to new life in Christ. Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Could Christ share his life with us if he had not given it up himself? After all, getting into highly symbolic pictures here, the life is in the blood. And it is his life Christ gives us through the cross. It is worth pointing out, a major theme of OT sacrifice was not so much the animal being punished for their sins as its blood washing the people clean.

Lets look at this from another angle. If God had decided sovereignly to create man mortal and Adam died falling out of a tree without ever sinning or eating the wrong fruit, is here any reason God could not simply raise him from the dead and give him resurrection life? Or if Eve had decided to make fruit salad, from the tree of life and the tree of knowledge, according to Genesis they would have lived forever. Would Christ still have had to die to redeem them?

Assyrian said:

Lets look at this from another angle. If God had decided sovereignly to create man mortal and Adam died falling out of a tree without ever sinning or eating the wrong fruit, is here any reason God could not simply raise him from the dead and give him resurrection life?

Click to expand...

God could only resuscitate such a life if that were so. Just like the Lord resuscitated Lazarus (who later died again). Resurrection would mean raised to a life that can never die, not simply brought back to life.

The resurrection has yet to take place for man. If Adam had fallen from a tree and died? God could have resuscitated him.

Or if Eve had decided to make fruit salad, from the tree of life and the tree of knowledge, according to Genesis they would have lived forever. Would Christ still have had to die to redeem them?

Click to expand...

If they ate from the Tree of Life after they had fallen? In order for them to live? Jesus could never come down from the cross! He would have to be paying for their endless sinning, forever. That is why its great that we all die physically. That way, Jesus could spend a limited amount of time on the Cross and FINISH the payment.

The Tree of Life? God deprived Adam and Eve from their promotion . That Tree was there as reward for having passed the test. Adam failed, so they had to be denied access to the Tree of Life.


In Christ, GeneZ


.

Assyrian said:

There is nothing in scripture that says there was no physical death before the fall.

Click to expand...

Jot and tittle time...

There is nothing in Scripture that says there was death IN THIS PRESENT CREATION before the fall. There was plenty of physical deaths in the prior creations. Creations that were destroyed and replaced. We live in the most current creation. There will be two more to follow.

Before Adam's fall Satan understood what death meant. That is one reason why he tempted Adam. I would assume that Satan was most expecting a physical death of the man and woman. He was expecting to take back his place as ruler of this world for himself. He was in for a gigantic surprise when Adam and Eve remained physically alive after their fall. He most likely saw God as being a liar when these (spiritually dead) folks scrambled to dress themselves in fig leaves. Physically dead creatures do not do that.

God created mankind just like we are.

Click to expand...

Not quite. What God created had no defect. No sin nature. Perfect health.

1Cor 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

Click to expand...

That refers to the TYPE of body we (the church) have now, in contrast to what type of body we will receive at the resurrection.

Man was created mortal, flesh and blood, but though man was mortal, there was also the promise of eternal life.

Click to expand...

Man was created 'able' not to die physically. Man lost that ability in the fall.

The Tree of Life would have been given at a point of maturity that God desired of man to have, forever. But? Adam could only have received everlasting life if he ate (without sin). That is a life with a beginning, that will never end. In contrast. We are now given Eternal life. We will have life with no beginning, nor end. For our unique life will be IN GOD.

That I think is what the Tree of Life is about. It makes no sense if everyone in the garden was immortal anyway. When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. His physical death years later was not directly the result of the fall.

Click to expand...

Adam's physical death was a result of the fall. Adam took on defect (the sin nature) at his fall. That defect demanded that he be denied the Tree of Life by God.

God is holy. He can not tolerate imperfection. Just like brain cells die when deprived oxygen, the perfection of Adam died when he was cut off from his spiritual life with God. We breathe our spiritual life with God. God exhales truth. We inhale. We then exhale faith. That is why the Word of God is "God breathed." God would not allow for the imperfection of fallen Adam to live forever. Adam and Eve were therefore refused the Tree of Life. God had a plan to replace the imperfection with perfection.

He died because he was mortal and his body grew old and died. That is the way God made him. What the fall did was cut him off from God and the possibility of resurrection.

Click to expand...

That issue was dealt with almost immediately after the fall. God's redemption plan was already in motion. For it took the shedding of blood for God to provide the animal skins to clothe Adam and Eve. Through out the Old Testament the shedding of blood was the symbolic teaching tool that pointed to the death of Christ in our place.

God knew the hearts of Adam and Eve. God saw their repentance. God therefore, provided for their salvation. God made also sure that this account was to be recorded in God's Word so we can learn from it the nature and heart of God.


In Christ, GeneZ


.

genez said:

God could only resuscitate such a life if that were so. Just like the Lord resuscitated Lazarus (who later died again). Resurrection would mean raised to a life that can never die, not simply brought back to life.

The resurrection has yet to take place for man. If Adam had fallen from a tree and died? God could have resuscitated him.

Click to expand...

Why just resuscitated, why not transformed?

If they ate from the Tree of Life after they had fallen? In order for them to live? Jesus could never come down from the cross! He would have to be paying for their endless sinning, forever. That is why its great that we all die physically. That way, Jesus could spend a limited amount of time on the Cross and FINISH the payment.

Click to expand...

I think the biggest problem with my question is that Christ descended from an immortal Adam and Eve would be immortal too and would not be able to be killed. But lets assume God would have some way around that .

Your answer raises the question of Heb 9 though. I would have thought Christ's once for all sacrifice would be able to deal with the consequences of any sin, even eating both fruit.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

The Tree of Life? God deprived Adam and Eve from their promotion . That Tree was there as reward for having passed the test. Adam failed, so they had to be denied access to the Tree of Life.

In Christ, GeneZ.

Click to expand...

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever-" If living forever was a reward for obedience, doesn't that mean Adam and Eve were created mortal?

Assyrian said:

So you back you unsupported insight into the real meaning of scripture, with a prophetic revelation of the hearts of those who disagree with you. And of course disagreeing with you is wrong doing. Just sounds cultic to me Genez. Sorry.

Click to expand...

I disagree with you. Disagreeing with you is wrong.

See?

Assyrian said:

Why just resuscitated, why not transformed?

Click to expand...

Why ask such an unrelated question? One that attempts to make one forget the original question? The one that was answered, but never acknowledged that it was answered?

I think the biggest problem with my question is that Christ descended from an immortal Adam and Eve would be immortal too and would not be able to be killed. But lets assume God would have some way around that .

Click to expand...

He did NOT descend from a human father. There was a reason for that. The Holy Spirit had to provide the male's reproductive genetic material to fertilize the "seed of the woman" as promised in Genesis 3.

Your answer raises the question of Heb 9 though. I would have thought Christ's once for all sacrifice would be able to deal with the consequences of any sin, even eating both fruit.

Click to expand...

Time warp chair jammed? Totally unrelated matters.

If living forever was a reward for obedience, doesn't that mean Adam and Eve were created mortal?

Click to expand...

We are mortal. We all must die physically. In contrast, Adam was created "able" not to die. It was a unique place to be.

If Adam made right choices his body would have lived forever. We can not make right choices like Adam could have that would have resulted in our present body not dying. Our present body is DOOMED. Adam's created body as it was originally created, was not doomed. If Adam was obedient in all he did in testing, the body he was given could have lived on forever.

Our body was crucified with Christ. The body we now have will not see another day after we die. A new perfect body must replace our present body.

Jesus could have jumped off of the Cross after he paid for our sins (spiritual death) if he wished to take over where Adam left off. He could have healed himself instantly. He could have jumped off and lived forever as Adam could have lived if Adam had been obedient. But, Christ also died physically so that our bodies would be counted dead. If Jesus did not die physically we could not receive new resurrection bodies after death. Our souls would be saved forever without a body. We would be doomed to remain as saved bodiless souls in Heaven.

Jesus had every right to live forever after he paid for our sins. He proved himself to be the perfect Adam. But he willingly CHOSE to give up his physical life. No man took it from him. The man Jesus (in human flesh) no longer lives. He was sacrificed physically, as well as spiritually. The body he now has is a body of Heaven, not of the dust like ours. The man Jesus as he once lived, no longer is! He was sacrificed in more than one way. He had every right to live forever as a man just as Adam would have been granted the right to live forever, if he had been obedient.

Why should we not know the Lord any longer after the flesh? As he walked earth before the time of the Cross? Well? He is no longer as a man of this earth. No longer of the flesh of the dust.

The Barbarian said:

If He came to save us from physical death, He failed.

Click to expand...

Depends on how you look at it. Will we one day be risen from our physical death and be brought into eternal life with Christ? Sounds like Christ will save us from physical death AND eternal spiritual seperation after all.

genez said:

I disagree with you. Disagreeing with you is wrong.

See?

Click to expand...

Except that is a claim I have never made.

On the other hand

genez said:

What I said was getting right to the heart of the matter. It was not name calling. It was pointing to the problem.

Just the same, I can appreciate your desire to deny any wrong doing.

As you wish...

Click to expand...

Depends on how you look at it.

Click to expand...

Nope. We all die. That's how it is. We are resurrected with a new body, not the old one.

A careful reading of 1 Corinthians 15 will show that the creationist notion of physical death simply following from sin is too simple. In particular:
"The first man Adam became a living being" is written of Adam before his fall; the difference that Paul speaks of between "a living being" and "a life-giving spirit" could well have been something Adam was created as, not simply a consequence of his fall.

Furthermore:
If death came from sin, shouldn't it be the other way around?

My way of looking at it is that: even if people physically died, if there was no sin, there would have been nothing to fear in physical death. With perfect knowledge of God people would have understood God's reasons for instituting physical death as a biological fact (look how wonderfully we are treating the environment as a result of our overpopulation today) and they would have understood that physical death is only a temporary separation from their loved ones.

But only with sin does physical death become the enemy. Without sin, death is just a transition - indeed, that is precisely how Christians today ought to view their own deaths. But with sin and separation from God, physical death becomes an enemy because the eternal is now fraught with darkness and uncertainty.

The sting of death is sin, indeed.

genez said:

Jot and tittle time...

There is nothing in Scripture that says there was death IN THIS PRESENT CREATION before the fall. There was plenty of physical deaths in the prior creations. Creations that were destroyed and replaced. We live in the most current creation. There will be two more to follow.

Click to expand...

Not sure your gap theory moves the discussion any further, but quibble noted. Still, as you put it there is nothing in scripture to say there was death before the fall, and there is nothing to say that there wasn't. Which at very least tells us scripture is silent on the subject and there is no reason to find a problem with the scientific evidence.

Before Adam's fall Satan understood what death meant. That is one reason why he tempted Adam. I would assume that Satan was most expecting a physical death of the man and woman. He was expecting to take back his place as ruler of this world for himself. He was in for a gigantic surprise when Adam and Eve remained physically alive after their fall. He most likely saw God as being a liar when these (spiritually dead) folks scrambled to dress themselves in fig leaves. Physically dead creatures do not do that.

Click to expand...

So God gave Adam a warning which Satan could understand and manipulate, but the person who needed the information, Adam, had no idea what death meant?

God created mankind just like we are.

Click to expand...

Not quite. What God created had no defect. No sin nature. Perfect health.

Click to expand...

You are assuming God's creation would be defective if he didn't make it the way creationists want. God tells us he provides prey for hungry ravens and lion cubs, is God's provision defective? Incidentally these references are found in two creation account Job 38 and Psalm 104, which tells us death and predation, the whole vibrant array of life we see in the natural world are part of God's creation, and in God's view, good.

...No sin nature.

Click to expand...

So why did Eve steal the fruit? Genesis describes her being led by her fleshly desires just like we are. Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. How is this any different from 1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world.

That refers to the TYPE of body we (the church) have now, in contrast to what type of body we will receive at the resurrection.

Click to expand...

Not just the church but all of humanity, flesh and blood, perishable. The thing is Paul associates this body with God's original creation, not the fall. As shernren points out, the verse Paul quotes comparing the two natures is a verse describing Adam's creation 1Cor 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. He talks of Adam being 'from the earth', a reference to God forming Adam from the clay. He goes on to say we are like the man of dust God formed from the earth 1Cor 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Really, Paul seem blissfully unaware God created Adam immortal and that this all cahnged with the fall.

1 Corinthians 15:38-40
"But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another."

Click to expand...

Note what the verse you quotes says, God gives it a body as he has determined. The sort of body God gave man was his choice, it is not up to you to say his choice is defective.

Man was created 'able' not to die physically. Man lost that ability in the fall.

Click to expand...

It doesn't say we were created able not to die. Man was able not to die but it was because he was put in a garden with a tree of Life. Thrown out of the garden with no access to everlasting life, his body did what came naturally, it grew old and died. There is no suggestion in the account of any other form of immortality available to mankind.

The Tree of Life would have been given at a point of maturity that God desired of man to have, forever. But? Adam could only have received everlasting life if he ate (without sin). That is a life with a beginning, that will never end. In contrast. We are now given Eternal life. We will have life with no beginning, nor end. For our unique life will be IN GOD.

Click to expand...

Yet we see the Tree of Life in the Book of Revelation, promised to those who conquer in the church in Ephesus, and growing on either side of the river of life in the New Jerusalem. There seems to be more to this symbol than the mere promise of everlasting life.

However you see the Tree as able to give Adam everlasting life, but not the Eternal life that is ours in the Resurrection. If the tree could give Adam everlasting life, then Adam didn't have everlasting life already, in other words, he was created mortal.

Adam's physical death was a result of the fall. Adam took on defect (the sin nature) at his fall. That defect demanded that he be denied the Tree of Life by God.

Click to expand...

So the defect that came with the fall was being a sinner, not being mortal, and it was only a secondary effect of the fall that his sin cut his mortal body off from the one answer to its own mortality, the Tree of Life.

God is holy. He can not tolerate imperfection. Just like brain cells die when deprived oxygen, the perfection of Adam died when he was cut off from his spiritual life with God. We breathe our spiritual life with God. God exhales truth. We inhale. We then exhale faith. That is why the Word of God is "God breathed." God would not allow for the imperfection of fallen Adam to live forever. Adam and Eve were therefore refused the Tree of Life. God had a plan to replace the imperfection with perfection.

Click to expand...

I don't get where you think Adam was created immortal, but was also given a Tree of Life in the garden that can give him immortality?

That issue was dealt with almost immediately after the fall. God's redemption plan was already in motion. For it took the shedding of blood for God to provide the animal skins to clothe Adam and Eve. Through out the Old Testament the shedding of blood was the symbolic teaching tool that pointed to the death of Christ in our place.

God knew the hearts of Adam and Eve. God saw their repentance. God therefore, provided for their salvation. God made also sure that this account was to be recorded in God's Word so we can learn from it the nature and heart of God.

In Christ, GeneZ

Click to expand...

It always was about the cross. That is the only tree that can give eternal life. I like that fact that the cross was God's plan all along, before the fall, before the foundation of the world.

The Barbarian said:

Barbarian observes:
If He came to save us from physical death, He failed. We will all die.


​

Nope. We all die. That's how it is. We are resurrected with a new body, not the old one.

Click to expand...

Are old bodies are transformed, yes, but we are resurrected physically from physical death. Death has lost it's sting! Jesus did not fail.

genez said:

Assyrian: Lets look at this from another angle. If God had decided sovereignly to create man mortal and Adam died falling out of a tree without ever sinning or eating the wrong fruit, is here any reason God could not simply raise him from the dead and give him resurrection life?
genez: God could only resuscitate such a life if that were so. Just like the Lord resuscitated Lazarus (who later died again). Resurrection would mean raised to a life that can never die, not simply brought back to life.

The resurrection has yet to take place for man. If Adam had fallen from a tree and died? God could have resuscitated him.

Assyrian: Why just resuscitated, why not transformed?

Click to expand...

Why ask such an unrelated question? One that attempts to make one forget the original question? The one that was answered, but never acknowledged that it was answered?

Click to expand...

I asked if God could have resurrected Adam, you said God could only resuscitate him. It seems reasonable to ask why you see God limited that way.

He did NOT descend from a human father. There was a reason for that. The Holy Spirit had to provide the male's reproductive genetic material to fertilize the "seed of the woman" as promised in Genesis 3.

Click to expand...

If immortality is going to be based in the Y chromosome is it limited to men? I think you are ignoring the incarnation, Christ is fully human as well as fully God.

Time warp chair jammed? Totally unrelated matters.

Click to expand...

You suggest the cross would not have been up to saving mankind if Adam and Eve had eaten both fruit. Time warp or not, your description of the limitation of Jesus' sacrifice sounds very like Hebrew's description of the limitation of the Levitical priesthood.

We are mortal. We all must die physically. In contrast, Adam was created "able" not to die. It was a unique place to be.

If Adam made right choices his body would have lived forever.

Click to expand...

What do you mean able 'not to die'? Was he created mortal or immortal? Was his body able to live forever without the Tree of Life? Or was it in itself mortal and needed the Tree of Life to live forever?

We can not make right choices like Adam could have that would have resulted in our present body not dying. Our present body is DOOMED. Adam's created body as it was originally created, was not doomed. If Adam was obedient in all he did in testing, the body he was given could have lived on forever.

Click to expand...

Do you think our bodies now are different from Adam's after the fall (except for the navel of course), because according to Genesis Adam would have lived forever after the fall if he had simply reached out and eaten from the Tree of Life.

Our body was crucified with Christ. The body we now have will not see another day after we die. A new perfect body must replace our present body.

Jesus could have jumped off of the Cross after he paid for our sins (spiritual death) if he wished to take over where Adam left off. He could have healed himself instantly. He could have jumped off and lived forever as Adam could have lived if Adam had been obedient. But, Christ also died physically so that our bodies would be counted dead. If Jesus did not die physically we could not receive new resurrection bodies after death. Our souls would be saved forever without a body. We would be doomed to remain as saved bodiless souls in Heaven.

Jesus had every right to live forever after he paid for our sins. He proved himself to be the perfect Adam. But he willingly CHOSE to give up his physical life. No man took it from him. The man Jesus (in human flesh) no longer lives. He was sacrificed physically, as well as spiritually. The body he now has is a body of Heaven, not of the dust like ours. The man Jesus as he once lived, no longer is! He was sacrificed in more than one way. He had every right to live forever as a man just as Adam would have been granted the right to live forever, if he had been obedient.

2 Corinthians 5:16
"Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer."

​

Why should we not know the Lord any longer after the flesh? As he walked earth before the time of the Cross? Well? He is no longer as a man of this earth. No longer of the flesh of the dust.

1 Corinthians 15:47
"The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven."


​

That shoots down the Catholic's claim for substantiation. The flesh they claim to eat no longer exists. Blood as we now know it does not exist in Heaven. Jesus' body is of the elements of Heaven. His glorified blood is spirit, not physical material derived from the dust of this earth.

Communion is to be done today as a memorial in remembrance of what Christ did on our behalf. Just as all the elements of food in the Passover Sedar were symbolic, and not realities of the history of the Exodus. Jesus changed the meaning of the symbolism at the Last Supper. The Sedar foods were never intended to become the realities. Only reminders.

In Christ, GeneZ
​

Click to expand...

So you are saying Christ's sacrifice of our sins was complete before he died, when he said 'it is finished'?

Of course Jesus didn't fail. He just didn't succeed the way creationists want him to have succeeded.

I've put in my 2 cents. This debate will probably start looping over at this point. It was stimulating to some degree I guess. So I am out.

Final note: If a supernatural being acted in a supernatural way some point in the past, the limited methodology of scientific naturalism would fail in providing a sound systematic study of such non-natural activity.

The philosophies followed and the assumptions made within current scientific studies also fail to recognize and equate supernatural activity. Thus, even if the creation account in Genesis was correct, it could never be considered. This kind of limitation is the reason why modern scientific theory suggests that abiogenesis must have occured and billions of years were needed for marco-evolution to occur.

Nothing presented in this debate proved the account in Genesis wrong because all rebuttals relied on natural means to understand supernatural happenings.

Jig said:

I've put in my 2 cents. This debate will probably start looping over at this point. It was stimulating to some degree I guess. So I am out.

Final note: If a supernatural being acted in a supernatural way some point in the past, the limited methodology of scientific naturalism would fail in providing a sound systematic study of such non-natural activity.

The philosophies followed and the assumptions made within current scientific studies also fail to recognize and equate supernatural activity. Thus, even if the creation account in Genesis was correct, it could never be considered. This kind of limitation is the reason why modern scientific theory suggests that abiogenesis must have occured and billions of years were needed for marco-evolution to occur.

Nothing presented in this debate proved the account in Genesis wrong because all rebuttals relied on natural means to understand supernatural happenings.

Click to expand...

When the disciples met the risen Christ, if a physician had been on hand, wouldn't he have been able to verify that Jesus was alive with a stethoscope and a basic medical check - with naturalistic methods?

If God really created the universe rapidly a few thousand years ago, as scientists on hand to examine creation, wouldn't we have been able to verify that the universe is indeed young similarly by naturalistic methods?

The mechanism of a miracle is indeed not amenable to naturalistic explanation; but the evidence of a miracle can be verified naturalistically. The disciples saw the bodily resurrected Jesus because photons reflected off His flesh and clothing onto their retinas, stimulating the appropriate responses in their brains - an entirely naturalistic process that science has since deciphered.

Every miracle in the Bible was a miracle that was seen, and seeing is a natural process. Why should creation be any different?

Jig said:

Are old bodies are transformed, yes, but we are resurrected physically from physical death. Death has lost it's sting! Jesus did not fail.

Click to expand...

Our old bodies are not transformed in one sense. Of being rearranged. . If they were? We would have transformed bodies made up of the elements of this earth. An earth destined for utter destruction.

We will be having our eternal citizenship in Heaven, not earth. Our bodies are now of the dust of the earth, because we were bor as citizens of the earth. Our new glorified bodies will be of the elements of Heaven. We are now citizens of Heaven.

This heavens and earth will be utterly destroyed. Nullified. But if these bodies retained its matter, only to be transformed in that sense? We would be retaining a body consisting of material of what will be annihilated by God.







The 'elements' refers to atomic structure. The earth will be destroyed by atomic fusion at the Lord's command. Chemistry uses the same Greek word translated "elements" to categorize the Periodic Table of the Elements.

Our resurrection body will not be a transformation of our EARTHLY body. Simply modified and of the same chemical structure. It must be replaced. The transformation spoken of concerning the rapture does not speak of simply a modification. It means to become transformed into a totally new type of body. A body just like the Lord's.





Our home is *not* this earth. Yet, our present body material is of the earth. A doomed earth.
Our Home is to be Heaven! So, we will have a body of Heaven!







That's like saying. "The building crew transformed the desolate village. All the latest building materials were used to build strong, safe, affordable housing."

That does not mean that the original materials were utilized having been put through a process as to become transformed. What stood was torn down and replaced as to transform the village.


For? The Lord's body is not made up of the elements of this earth any longer. We will have a body just like his own.







See?

Our resurrection bodies will not have anything to do with the dust of this earth. A material dust which is doomed for total destruction.


Grace and peace, GeneZ



.