• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Cardinal Robert Sarah given appointment by Pope Leo XIV

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,569
5,994
Minnesota
✟334,987.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Sarah was famously at odds with Pope Francis over several issues, and once came under fire for suggesting that he had co-authored a book with Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, which condemned proposals to end priestly celibacy just as Francis himself was considering those proposals, thereby appearing to pit Benedict and Francis as being at odds, reports Crux, the Herald’s Rome-based partner publication.
It notes that Sarah has been an avid supporter of the Traditional Latin Mass, which Pope Francis restricted, adding that though Sarah was allowed to remain in leadership by Francis, his hands were effectively tied until he retired promptly upon reaching the age of 75 in 2021.

Very encouraging.
 

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,569
5,994
Minnesota
✟334,987.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Sarah was at odds with Vatican II and had to reverse statements he made in the past.
What specifically are you speaking of? The priest facing the people?

"Vatican II insisted on a major point: in this area, the important thing is not what we do, but what God does. No human work will ever be able to accomplish what is found at the heart of the Mass: the sacrifice of the cross."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
36,677
21,104
29
Nebraska
✟785,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
Sarah was at odds with Vatican II and had to reverse statements he made in the past.
He’s rather traditional, which in my opinion, isn’t a problem.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
36,677
21,104
29
Nebraska
✟785,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
What specifically are you speaking of? The priest facing the people?

"Vatican II insisted on a major point: in this area, the important thing is not what we do, but what God does. No human work will ever be able to accomplish what is found at the heart of the Mass: the sacrifice of the cross."
Yes. That’s one issue.
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
19,636
4,238
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟249,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
He’s rather traditional, which in my opinion, isn’t a problem.
Except he had to reverse himself on statements he made which went against Vatican II. FYI, he said these
things when then Benedict XVI was the Pope.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,259
901
The South
✟90,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Except he had to reverse himself on statements he made which went against Vatican II. FYI, he said these
things when then Benedict XVI was the Pope.
What did he say?
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
19,636
4,238
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟249,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What did he say?
One issue was that he wanted ALL priest in the Catholic Church to celebrate Mass
ad orientem. The Bishops and Cardinals who were at Vatican II rejected his statement
on this issue and he reversed himself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,569
5,994
Minnesota
✟334,987.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,259
901
The South
✟90,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
One issue was that he wanted ALL priest in the Catholic Church to celebrate Mass
ad orientem.
Seems reasonable. That's the way most Christians historically worshipped, for good reason. As far as I know, Sacrosanctum Concilium didn't call for the change to versus populum; that was a postconciliar change, so I'm not sure how a rejection of that change is a rejection of the council.
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
19,636
4,238
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟249,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Seems reasonable. That's the way most Christians historically worshipped, for good reason. As far as I know, Sacrosanctum Concilium didn't call for the change to versus populum; that was a postconciliar change, so I'm not sure how a rejection of that change is a rejection of the council.
No, Christians only started celebrating the Mass ad orientem after 400 years, when Constantine gave the Church
government buildings to be used as a church. Originally, Christians celebrated Mass in homes, wilderness
or in catacombs with the celebrant facing the people. When the church received the government buildings
from Constantine, a large self which was attached to the wall in front of the governing body was used.
Back then scrolls and then books were large and heavy, and it made more sense to use the self in the building
than a table in a home or to try and construct a free-standing altar. So, the practice began as the priest has his
back to the people. OH and BTW, the altar in my parish church was always a free-standing altar, as most are
in cathedrals, like Notre Dame Cathedral in France.

Vatican II allowed the Bishops to experiment in order to establish a norm that would be set by
each congregation, in this case the USCCB. A free-standing altar was to be used where the
priest could walk around it. Not possible with an altar attached to the wall in the front.

The Novus Ordo was closer to how the Mass was celebrated in the first centuries of the early Church.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lost4words
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,259
901
The South
✟90,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No, Christians only started celebrating the Mass ad orientem after 400 years, when Constantine gave the Church
government buildings to be used as a church.
Even taking that statement at face value, that's 1600/2000 years of Christians worshipping ad orientem. But there are a couple of other problems with your statement, those being that Constantine died the better part of a century prior to AD 400, and that there's no evidence for pre-Constantinian versus populum worship. We know early Christians prayed facing East, e.g. from the 3rd-century Didascalia Apostolorum. Most likely, Christians always faced East for worship.
OH and BTW, the altar in my parish church was always a free-standing altar, as most are
in cathedrals, like Notre Dame Cathedral in France.
The altars in Orthodox churches are also freestanding, and they all continue to worship ad orientem.
The Novus Ordo was closer to how the Mass was celebrated in the first centuries of the early Church.
No, it's not, and it's a shame that people have been led to believe it is.
 
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Moderator Trainee
Hands-on Trainee
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
36,677
21,104
29
Nebraska
✟785,295.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
One issue was that he wanted ALL priest in the Catholic Church to celebrate Mass
ad orientem. The Bishops and Cardinals who were at Vatican II rejected his statement
on this issue and he reversed himself.
Interesting. I wasn’t aware of that.
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
19,636
4,238
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟249,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Even taking that statement at face value, that's 1600/2000 years of Christians worshipping ad orientem. But there are a couple of other problems with your statement, those being that Constantine died the better part of a century prior to AD 400, and that there's no evidence for pre-Constantinian versus populum worship. We know early Christians prayed facing East, e.g. from the 3rd-century Didascalia Apostolorum. Most likely, Christians always faced East for worship.
The altars in Orthodox churches are also freestanding, and they all continue to worship ad orientem.
No, it's not, and it's a shame that people have been led to believe it is.
Constantine was Roman Emperor from 306AD to 337AD, that's the 4th Century. He issued the Edict of Milan
which gave the Christian Church freedom to worship. He also gave Roman Government buildings to the Church
which they used. Before that, the Mass was celebrated in various ways but mostly in secret, often in the homes
of Christians. Do you think they pushed the kitchen table against the wall so the celebrant could have his
back to the people?

Which way did Jesus face when he instituted the Eucharist? The priest is Christ, "In Persona Christi," when
he celebrates the Mass and faces the people where God is dwelling within them. The priest doesn't need
to worship God out in the cosmos somewhere, but where God is, and that is among us all at Mass. God
is "omnipresent" and is always among us.

FYI, the spiritual assistant of my OCDS group, who has a PHD on Liturgical History and
Spirituality which he received in Rome, gave a talk on the history of the Mass and Confession.
I know the history of the Church and know how the Mass developed over the centuries, and
why Vatican II sought to bring it back to be not only closer to the early Church, but to have
greater spiritual meaning for Catholics.
 
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,259
901
The South
✟90,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Constantine was Roman Emperor from 306AD to 337AD, that's the 4th Century.
Yes, and the establishment of the Church in the 1st century makes that a 300 year difference.
Do you think they pushed the kitchen table against the wall so the celebrant could have his
back to the people?
As I said, Orthodox altars are freestanding and they worship ad orientem. Altar placement is immaterial in which way the priest faces.
Which way did Jesus face when he instituted the Eucharist?
I'm not sure. Historical depictions of the event show Him facing the same way as some or all of the Apostles, sometimes with others at his side or in front. But while the Eucharist is central to the liturgy, the liturgy itself isn't a reenactment of the Last Supper.
The priest doesn't need
to worship God out in the cosmos somewhere, but where God is, and that is among us all at Mass. God
is "omnipresent" and is always among us.
So why was that understanding absent from Christian worship for roughly 1700 years?
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
19,636
4,238
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟249,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yes, and the establishment of the Church in the 1st century makes that a 300 year difference.
As I said, Orthodox altars are freestanding and they worship ad orientem. Altar placement is immaterial in which way the priest faces.
I'm not sure. Historical depictions of the event show Him facing the same way as some or all of the Apostles, sometimes with others at his side or in front. But while the Eucharist is central to the liturgy, the liturgy itself isn't a reenactment of the Last Supper.
So why was that understanding absent from Christian worship for roughly 1700 years?
The original reason the priest facing Ad Orientem lifted the host above his head, was so the people in the back of the church,
who were the poor who couldn't pay for seats up front, would see the host. Only the wealthy who could afford to pay for seats
sat in the front during Mass.

Church history isn't as comfy as many like to believe. It was nasty.

Fact is, the Bible could not be translated into English until the Reformation. Then,
the ordinary Christians could start to read the Bible. Eventually, the Church had no
choice but to allow the translation of the Bible into the vernacular.

The same is true for the Islam religion today. No translation other than Arabic is allowed
for the Quaran. This keeps the populace ignorant of what it actually says.
 

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,569
5,994
Minnesota
✟334,987.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The original reason the priest facing Ad Orientem lifted the host above his head, was so the people in the back of the church,
who were the poor who couldn't pay for seats up front, would see the host. Only the wealthy who could afford to pay for seats
sat in the front during Mass.
"For much of Church history, the priest was accustomed to face the altar in the same direction as the people. This meant that when the priest was reciting the Eucharistic Prayer, the host and chalice were hidden from view.
Initially this did not pose any problem for the people, but by the 13th century, many saints were seeking ways to deepen the Eucharistic faith of the people."

"From the earliest days of Church, Christians also faced east when at prayer. In fact, Tertullian (160-220 AD) actually had to defend Christians against the pagans who accused them of facing east to worship the sun. Many Church Fathers, such as St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Basil and St. Augustine, also speak of the practice of facing east. In the 3rd century, the Didascalia, a treatise on church order from northern Syria, set down the rule of facing east during the Eucharist. It said, "Let the place of the priests be separated in a part of the house that faces east. In the midst of them is placed the bishop's chair, and with him let the priests be seated. Likewise, and in another section let the laity be seated facing east" (Didascalia, Chapter 12)."

Fact is, the Bible could not be translated into English until the Reformation. Then,
the ordinary Christians could start to read the Bible. Eventually, the Church had no
choice but to allow the translation of the Bible into the vernacular.
Before a Catholic named Gutenberg printed the first book, and he chose the Bible, the vast majority of people were illiterate. Not only did the Catholic Church preserve and preach the Bible century after century, many Catholics translated Biblical text into the common languages of the people, even though, as I said, for most of the history of Christianity most people were illiterate. After Latin surpassed Greek as the common language of the people, the Latin Vulgate under the direction of Saint Jerome became by far the standard Bible. "Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people. Eventually Latin morphed into various languages such as Italian, Spanish, and French, and then came more translations by Catholics. There were Catholic translations of Biblical text in French, Bohemian, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, and Norwegian to name just some.

In England long before Wycliffe and Tyndale, there were many translations of Biblical text by Catholics. To mention just a few of them, Venerable Bede, a Catholic monk, is perhaps best known for his translation in the 700s. King Alfred the Great had not finished his translation of Psalms before he died, that would have been in the 800s. Now a lot of Biblical texts by Catholics have been destroyed, remember Protestants in England seized Catholic monasteries and gave the land to wealthy Protestants and much that was Catholic was sold off or destroyed. But some do exist, you can find some of Alfred’s translations in a manuscript dated as around 1050. These are in the English of the Saxons: The Illustrated Psalms of Alfred the Great: The Old English Paris Psalter When the Normans took over the English changed, the paraphrase of Orm is dated around 1150 and is an example of a Catholic translation into Middle English. In later years, Catholic fled to France in order to publish the Douay-Rheims BIble, but penalties were severe for those who tried to get this English translation of the Bible to the people of England.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jas3
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
19,636
4,238
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟249,671.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
"For much of Church history, the priest was accustomed to face the altar in the same direction as the people. This meant that when the priest was reciting the Eucharistic Prayer, the host and chalice were hidden from view.
Initially this did not pose any problem for the people, but by the 13th century, many saints were seeking ways to deepen the Eucharistic faith of the people."

"From the earliest days of Church, Christians also faced east when at prayer. In fact, Tertullian (160-220 AD) actually had to defend Christians against the pagans who accused them of facing east to worship the sun. Many Church Fathers, such as St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Basil and St. Augustine, also speak of the practice of facing east. In the 3rd century, the Didascalia, a treatise on church order from northern Syria, set down the rule of facing east during the Eucharist. It said, "Let the place of the priests be separated in a part of the house that faces east. In the midst of them is placed the bishop's chair, and with him let the priests be seated. Likewise, and in another section let the laity be seated facing east" (Didascalia, Chapter 12)."


Before a Catholic named Gutenberg printed the first book, and he chose the Bible, the vast majority of people were illiterate. Not only did the Catholic Church preserve and preach the Bible century after century, many Catholics translated Biblical text into the common languages of the people, even though, as I said, for most of the history of Christianity most people were illiterate. After Latin surpassed Greek as the common language of the people, the Latin Vulgate under the direction of Saint Jerome became by far the standard Bible. "Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people. Eventually Latin morphed into various languages such as Italian, Spanish, and French, and then came more translations by Catholics. There were Catholic translations of Biblical text in French, Bohemian, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, and Norwegian to name just some of the other languages.

In England long before Wycliffe and Tyndale, there were many translations of Biblical text by Catholics. To mention just a few of them, Venerable Bede, a Catholic monk, is perhaps best known for his translation in the 700s. King Alfred the Great had not finished his translation of Psalms before he died, that would have been in the 800s. Now a lot of Biblical texts by Catholics have been destroyed, remember Protestants in England seized Catholic monasteries and gave the land to wealthy Protestants and much that was Catholic was sold off or destroyed. But some do exist, you can find some of Alfred’s translations in a manuscript dated as around 1050. These are in the English of the Saxons: The Illustrated Psalms of Alfred the Great: The Old English Paris Psalter When the Normans took over the English changed, the paraphrase of Orm is dated around 1150 and is an example of a Catholic translation into Middle English. In later years, Catholic fled to France in order to publish the Douay-Rheims BIble, but penalties were severe for those who tried to get this English translation of the Bible to the people of England.
In St Teresa of Avila's time, translation of Sacred Scripture into anything but classical Latin was prohibited in Spain.

This meant that St Teresa could only hear what priest shared Sacred Scripture. St John of the Cross, being a priest
was trained in Latin and could read it.

Even St Theresa of Lisieux's father left the monastery because he struggled with reading Latin.

Scott Hahn's first experience in the Mass was when he attended a Novus Ordo Mass in English. Otherwise,
at that time, not being trained in Latin, would not have heard it and converted as he did.

Tradition small "t" is great, but it can and has been changed. The celebrant at the Mass is no
longer required to have his back to the people. Cardinal Sarah was corrected when he tried
to make Ad Orientem the norm in the Catholic Church, as it went against Vatican II.
 
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,259
901
The South
✟90,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Scott Hahn's first experience in the Mass was when he attended a Novus Ordo Mass in English. Otherwise,
at that time, not being trained in Latin, would not have heard it and converted as he did.
I'm not sure how we got on the subject of Latin as an ecclesiastical language from Cardinal Sarah promoting ad orientem, but while we're here, a few things to note:
  • Scott Hahn goes to a TLM.
  • Converts before 1970 all heard a Latin Mass and converted anyway.
  • The Novus Ordo causes plenty of other potential converts to walk away wondering about the lack of liturgical seriousness compared to a traditional Protestant service.
Cardinal Sarah was corrected when he tried
to make Ad Orientem the norm in the Catholic Church, as it went against Vatican II.
From the article in the OP it sounds like the current Pope doesn't see it that way.
 
Upvote 0