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Greg Merrill

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Wuest says the captives of Eph 4:8 are the demons of the air, clinging to Jesus in an attempt to prevent him from ascending through the air (their realm, Satan being the prince of the power of the air, Eph 2:2).
The Complete Biblical Library, and others say the captives are the O.T. Paradise saints, now being taken to Heaven as Jesus ascends their having just been raised from the dead.
Anybody out there have something convincing to say which one is right?
 

RC1970

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Wuest says the captives of Eph 4:8 are the demons of the air, clinging to Jesus in an attempt to prevent him from ascending through the air (their realm, Satan being the prince of the power of the air, Eph 2:2).
The Complete Biblical Library, and others say the captives are the O.T. Paradise saints, now being taken to Heaven as Jesus ascends their having just been raised from the dead.
Anybody out there have something convincing to say which one is right?
Reformation Study Bible notes:

Psalm. 68 celebrates God’s triumphant march from Mount Sinai in the wilderness to Mount Zion in Jerusalem and His enthronement there. Paul regards this as prefiguring Christ’s victorious ascent into heaven.

"captives" The spiritual forces of darkness were defeated at the Cross (Col. 2:15 and note). While Ps. 68:18 describes the victorious Lord receiving gifts from men, Paul pictures Christ as sharing His tribute with men. Paul may have thought of this psalm because it was associated with Pentecost. This was the day the ascended Christ poured out the Spirit on the church (Acts 2:32, 33).
 
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Greg Merrill

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Reformation Study Bible notes:

Psalm. 68 celebrates God’s triumphant march from Mount Sinai in the wilderness to Mount Zion in Jerusalem and His enthronement there. Paul regards this as prefiguring Christ’s victorious ascent into heaven.

"captives" The spiritual forces of darkness were defeated at the Cross (Col. 2:15 and note). While Ps. 68:18 describes the victorious Lord receiving gifts from men, Paul pictures Christ as sharing His tribute with men. Paul may have thought of this psalm because it was associated with Pentecost. This was the day the ascended Christ poured out the Spirit on the church (Acts 2:32, 33).
OK......? Doesn't leave me convinced one way or the other. Sorry.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Would you quote the source and Wuest (a wonderful source of some greek understanding, and The New Testament, An Expanded Translation)
as I do not see anything like the op in The New Testament An Expanded Translastion.
Is this a question or a statement? What is op?
 
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FrankDux

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perhaps some etymology would help ?

Greek daimon "deity, divine power; lesser god; guiding spirit, tutelary deity" (sometimes including souls of the dead); "one's genius, lot, or fortune;" from PIE *dai-mon- "divider, provider" (of fortunes or destinies), from root *da- "to divide"

There's nothing that says a " demon " is necessarily evil / bad
 
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Greg Merrill

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perhaps some etymology would help ?

Greek daimon "deity, divine power; lesser god; guiding spirit, tutelary deity" (sometimes including souls of the dead); "one's genius, lot, or fortune;" from PIE *dai-mon- "divider, provider" (of fortunes or destinies), from root *da- "to divide"

There's nothing that says a " demon " is necessarily evil / bad
Demon's were once holy angels. Along with Lucifer they rebelled against God. That is evil. That is bad. Now there is something to say that a "demon" is evil/bad, and there has been much written to say it in the past.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Wuest says the captives of Eph 4:8 are the demons of the air, clinging to Jesus in an attempt to prevent him from ascending through the air
What is the source of this in the OP (opening paragraph?) ...

It is not in WUEST'S NEW TESTAMENT EXPANDED GREEK.
 
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Humble me Lord

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Greg Merrill

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The source of this in the OP (opening paragraph?) ...
It is not in WUEST'S NEW TESTAMENT EXPANDED GREEK.
I was not referring to Wuest's N.T. but to his "Word Studies" Vol 1 "Ephesians and Colossians in the Greek N.T." where he asks the question "Who are these captives? p.98 He doesn't give a clear answer here, but in Vol 2 in his study in the book of Hebrews on p.93 "Our Lord, when stripping off and away from Himself the attacking demons, led them captive in a triumphal procession. Paul speaks of this same thing in Ephesians 4:7-ll."
 
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Greg Merrill

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Good bible study!
I believe its the old testament saints
This is from Jack Kelly, He Led Captivity Captive – Grace thru faith

This might also help, Releasing The Captives – Grace thru faith

This can get complicated, understanding the saints,Releasing The Captives – Grace thru faith

A complicated question that made me do a lot of studying.....:clap:
The second link you gave was more helpful than the first and it backs up what a lot of others say, but it doesn't rule out Wuest's stand on Eph 4:8. Who is to say who is right or wrong, the best debater? Not necessarily. Instead of being dogmatic with what I have so far, I might just say "Wuest says this. Others say that. This is what I believe. I believe..." Both views are interesting. Maybe it is a combination of the two. Jesus was flinging off demons from Himself that were trying to hold Him from ascending, while He was leading O.T. saints from Paradise to Heaven.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I was not referring to Wuest's N.T. but to his "Word Studies" Vol 1 "Ephesians and Colossians in the Greek N.T." where he asks the question "Who are these captives? p.98 He doesn't give a clear answer here, but in Vol 2 in his study in the book of Hebrews on p.93 "Our Lord, when stripping off and away from Himself the attacking demons, led them captive in a triumphal procession. Paul speaks of this same thing in Ephesians 4:7-ll."

Ahhh... You're confusing two different passages then. Your OP is referencing Ephesians 4:8. This post, quoting Wuest, is referencing Colossians. Two different things entirely. Ephesians 4:8 is in reference to the Old Testament saints. Colossians 2:15 is in reference to those demons who held the Old Testament saints captive, until Christ came and led captivity captive out of Hades.

Congratulations on owning a set of The Complete Biblical Library, btw. Excellent resource.
 
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FrankDux

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Demon's were once holy angels. Along with Lucifer they rebelled against God. That is evil. That is bad. Now there is something to say that a "demon" is evil/bad, and there has been much written to say it in the past.


the topic is actually far more complex than that, but you seem unwilling to listen to anything that doesn't match what you already know

why ask for answers from anybody else if you only are interested in hearing what you think you already know is the extent of the topic ?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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There's nothing that says a " demon " is necessarily evil / bad
Yes, there is if you mean a demon as in a demon, and not a thought.

YHWH exposes demons every day. They are always bad. He says so.
Y'SHUA always drove them out or sent them out of demoniacs for YHWH'S GLORY.

The demoniacs are ALWAYS GLAD THEY ARE GONE, at least for a time. (strange, but maybe some are not glad -- and if they come back and find the house empty.... well, then it gets a lot worse of course!!!!!!!!) ...

Demons are always opposed to YHWH , and , well,

perhaps your definition includes demons NOT REFERRED TO HERE.

Have you seen a nice little playful or other kind of demon that is not of the devil and is not harmful or devious or lying ?
 
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Greg Merrill

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the topic is actually far more complex than that, but you seem unwilling to listen to anything that doesn't match what you already know

why ask for answers from anybody else if you only are interested in hearing what you think you already know is the extent of the topic ?
In all respect to your freedom of speech, and personal feelings, etc., why should I listen to something that is contradictory to what I have already learned to be true from God's Word Himself in the Bible. Not calling you the devil mind you, but if the Devil were to start up a conversation with me, as he did with Eve, my mind is not to be open to him, to discuss, debate, or argue what he wants to talk about. Jesus, when confronted with the Devil's same tactics, did not have an "open mind" to discuss things. He went back to what was already established (God's written Word in Deut. 6:13,16; 8:3) and held to that. In some cases on this site, I am not looking for answers, but sharing God's answers that are written in the Bible. 'When you say There's nothing that says a " demon " is necessarily evil / bad" ... for me, that is not really something to even consider as having a possibility of being true and entering into a discussion for me to come to understand it as true. That is just a false statement that demands my response of denial and refutation. My mind should not be open to that statement, but guarded against those kind of misleading statements. My intention of course is not to fight with you, but help you. If you are not at all helped, possibly someone else that reads this may be.
 
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AJTruth

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Hell (English), Hades (Greek) or Sheol (Hebrew) was the name given to the abode of the dead between death and the resurrection. A place of departed spirits, to the unbeliever, a place of punishment & torments.

Genesis 2:17 Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 6:23 (A) 23 For the wages of sin is death;

Romans 3:23 all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(NOTE: ALL have sinned, not just some)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(NOTE: Have you ever known or heard of anyone in you life time that didn't die?)

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
(NOTE: That he may "depart" from hell)

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as Rachel's soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
(NOTE: As Rachel's soul was ""departing"" because she had died)

Psalm 9:17 (B) In hell their eyes are opened, and they see their mistakes about (rejecting) the Messiah, and find themselves in torments, under dreadful gnawings, and remorse of conscience; and having a terrible sensation of divine wrath, their worm dies not, and their fire is not quenched:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(NOTE: Paradise is the believers side of Hell, Hades, Sheol)

Luke 16:19 (A) There was a certain rich man,

20 (A) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 Lazarus, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(NOTE: Immediately unbelievers that rejected Christ begin reaping the rewards of unrighteousness)

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(NOTE: Being in TORMENTS: Punishment without pity, misery without mercy, crying without compassion)

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(NOTE: The rich unbeliever BEGS for 1 drop of help. And receives NONE!)

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(NOTE: Abraham say's now thou art tormented)

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(NOTE: Although, he can't pass the gulf. The unbeliever see's Abraham & Lazarus. Proof of recognition beyond the grave)

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(NOTE: Not only can they see one another, they can converse)

NOTE: Hell, Hades, Sheol - since the ascension of Christ. There's been no change of their place or condition. In fact Isaiah 5:14 (A) Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure. At the judgment of the great white throne, hades will give them up, they will be judged, and will pass into the lake of fire Rev 20:13; Rev 20:14.

When Christ ascended up on high (Eph 4:8) he led/took a multitude of believing captives with him (Matt 27:52-53). Scripture immediately adds, that He had previously descended first into the lower parts of the earth i.e. The paradise side of Hell, Hades, Sheol.

During the present church-age the unbelieving/wicked dead are still in Hell, Hades, Sheol, The believing/righteous dead are at home with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).

FINAL NOTE: When we die our body goes into the dirt. The real us departs & is carried to paradise with God or to torment/hell without God. Where we await the grand finale:

Revelation 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 
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Greg Merrill

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Hell (English), Hades (Greek) or Sheol (Hebrew) was the name given to the abode of the dead between death and the resurrection. A place of departed spirits, to the unbeliever, a place of punishment & torments.

Genesis 2:17 Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 6:23 (A) 23 For the wages of sin is death;

Romans 3:23 all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(NOTE: ALL have sinned, not just some)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(NOTE: Have you ever known or heard of anyone in you life time that didn't die?)

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
(NOTE: That he may "depart" from hell)

Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as Rachel's soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
(NOTE: As Rachel's soul was ""departing"" because she had died)

Psalm 9:17 (B) In hell their eyes are opened, and they see their mistakes about (rejecting) the Messiah, and find themselves in torments, under dreadful gnawings, and remorse of conscience; and having a terrible sensation of divine wrath, their worm dies not, and their fire is not quenched:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
(NOTE: Paradise is the believers side of Hell, Hades, Sheol)

Luke 16:19 (A) There was a certain rich man,

20 (A) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 Lazarus, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(NOTE: Immediately unbelievers that rejected Christ begin reaping the rewards of unrighteousness)

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(NOTE: Being in TORMENTS: Punishment without pity, misery without mercy, crying without compassion)

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(NOTE: The rich unbeliever BEGS for 1 drop of help. And receives NONE!)

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(NOTE: Abraham say's now thou art tormented)

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(NOTE: Although, he can't pass the gulf. The unbeliever see's Abraham & Lazarus. Proof of recognition beyond the grave)

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(NOTE: Not only can they see one another, they can converse)

NOTE: Hell, Hades, Sheol - since the ascension of Christ. There's been no change of their place or condition. In fact Isaiah 5:14 (A) Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure. At the judgment of the great white throne, hades will give them up, they will be judged, and will pass into the lake of fire Rev 20:13; Rev 20:14.

When Christ ascended up on high (Eph 4:8) he led/took a multitude of believing captives with him (Matt 27:52-53). Scripture immediately adds, that He had previously descended first into the lower parts of the earth i.e. The paradise side of Hell, Hades, Sheol.

During the present church-age the unbelieving/wicked dead are still in Hell, Hades, Sheol, The believing/righteous dead are at home with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8).

FINAL NOTE: When we die our body goes into the dirt. The real us departs & is carried to paradise with God or to torment/hell without God. Where we await the grand finale:

Revelation 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I liked all that you shared but this: FINAL NOTE: When we die our body goes into the dirt. The real us departs & is carried to paradise with God I agree with the first part but not the use of the word paradise. Paradise was for O.T. saints. Paradise may be in Heaven today, but I would not use the term paradise today, as that might confuse people in thinking of where Paradise was located in the O.T. time period. Just a minor point.
 
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marineimaging

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I am so glad that not knowing the answer to your question has no bearing on my salvation. Nor to the level of my love of God, how true my thankfulness to Jesus for his sacrifice on the cross, or my joy at feeling the Holy Spirit within me.
 
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