Can't reconcile. Someone pls help.

[IKTCA]

I read here that Yeshua came for Israel and not for Gentiles. As a Christian, I have never heard this before. But I can understand where he is coming from. Yeshua himself said that that he came to the lost sheep of Israel, period. What am I to say to Yeshua, the Son of G-d, that he said wrong?

I cannot reconcile this statement with many some of which are in the following:

1) Go and make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28:19)

2) When the Son of Man comes in his glory...all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another (Matthew 25:31-32)

According to v. 40, the separated people are those who gave food to the poor, gave drink to the thirsty, and visited the sick.

3) Simeon's prophecy about infant Yeshua (Luke 2:32)

A light for revelation to the Gentiles
and glory to your people Israel.

4) (Christ said) To the angel of the church in Ephesus write...to everyone who conquers, I will give permission to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of G-d. (Revelation 2:7)

Note: Church of Ephesus is a Gentile church.

5) there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white...(Revelation 7:9)

How did the Gentiles of all nations, all tribes, all peoples and all languages get there? I WANT TO BE THERE, TOO.

 

[simchat_torah]

1) Go and make disciples of all nations. (Matthew 28:19)

Considering Y'shua had not "died on the cross" yet, what were they teaching? What were they 'making disciples' of?

2) When the Son of Man comes in his glory...all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another (Matthew 25:31-32)

According to v. 40, the separated people are those who gave food to the poor, gave drink to the thirsty, and visited the sick.

In Jewish prophecy there are two messiahs spoken of. The first, calld Moshiach ben Yosef, is a suffering servant Messiah that restores Israel as the light to the nations drawing them to the second Messiah... Moshiach ben Dovid (son of david). This second Messiah will judge all nations.

I believe these two messiahs are one, Yeshua.

3) Simeon's prophecy about infant Yeshua (Luke 2:32)

A light for revelation to the Gentiles
and glory to your people Israel.

This is actually a quote from Isaiah 42:6
"I, the L-rd, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,"

As you can see, the Prophet is actually speaking to "the covenant people"... Israel... to be the light to the gentiles. Y'shua came to restore this purpose of Israel, to be the light to the nations. This light will shine upon the Reigning King Messiah, Moshaich ben Dovid.

4) (Christ said) To the angel of the church in Ephesus write...to everyone who conquers, I will give permission to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of G-d. (Revelation 2:7)

Note: Church of Ephesus is a Gentile church.

At this time, there were no congregations comprised of Gentiles, nor were there any "churches". The believers attended synagogue and held messianic bible studies in their homes. The word in the Greek translated as "church" is Ekklesia, meaning "called out ones". So he is writing to the "called out ones" in the city of Ephesus.

5) there was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white...(Revelation 7:9)

How did the Gentiles of all nations, all tribes, all peoples and all languages get there? I WANT TO BE THERE, TOO.

As you will be. This is the second coming of the Messiah (the second messiah, Moshiach ben Dovid). All nations will gather around him. Israel, the 'covenant' people, will shine upon him that all nations will see him and bow at his feet.


Please make careful note that these two messiahs are but the same in one. However, the first time he came he had a specific mission in mind, to restore Israel. However, this does not negate him as your Messiah as he IS ALSO Moshiach ben Dovid.

Shalom,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

A second note about Ekklesia...

Prior to King James, the word was understood to mean simply "called out ones." However, because of King James' own disdain towards Catholocism and an attempt to establish "the English Church" as the pure path, the translators were forced to translate certain words, in this case Ekklesia, according to the pronouncement of King James... or be beheaded.

Thus, under force of the King, many words gained a new 'translation' during the time of the first King James Bible, and few translations since have diverged from these peculiarities.

The word "church" itself is derived from the Germanic word "Kirke". This word Kirke was in reference to the Germanic Sun Deity, Kirke. Kirke finds its roots in Mitrha, and of course Mithra dates back to Tammuz.

I won't necessarily draw any conclusions between these connections, but I will post some articles below that have done so. I'm merely pointing out the erroneous translation of Ekklesia to "church".

Shalom,
yafet

 

[jbarcher]

I read here that Yeshua came for Israel and not for Gentiles. As a Christian, I have never heard this before. But I can understand where he is coming from. Yeshua himself said that that he came to the lost sheep of Israel, period. What am I to say to Yeshua, the Son of G-d, that he said wrong?

I don't think the "period" is rightly posited. In the setting where the Cannite woman asks Jesus for help, He does say, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." But what does she say, and what is Jesus' reply? She said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." and the reply was, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

Context.

 

[simchat_torah]

Compassion. Mercy. Love.

Although he was not on a mission at that time for the gentiles, he still loved them as all people are G-d's people.

When he replied to the woman, he also stated, "I have come ONLY for the lost sheep of Israel."

Yet he heals her. Though he made his point clear, he still shows compassion, love, and mercy. Though his mission was not to her, and though he made his mission evident, he still showed her... G-d.








Yes... Context is king. Thank you for that reminder.





Shalom,
yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

The article I really wanted to post concerning Ekklesia and Kirke was written by Monte Judah, but unfortunately, I can't seem to locate it right now. I can find a plethera of articles on the origin of the word "church" (ie: kirke), but I wanted to bring something with a level of quality that many of these google searches just don't do justice.

Anyway, if I find it soon enough, I'll post it... otherwise, I may just lower my standards and post a few of the 'higher qaulity' articles I've found with a simple google search.

peace,
Y

 

[jbarcher]

Interesting. I won't say anything more 'cause that'd be debating.

Take care!

 

[simchat_torah]

eh, chew on it a bit... and if you disagree, we could always be 'formal' about it

 

[visionary]

A second note about Ekklesia...

Prior to King James, the word was understood to mean simply "called out ones." However, because of King James' own disdain towards Catholocism and an attempt to establish "the English Church" as the pure path, the translators were forced to translate certain words, in this case Ekklesia, according to the pronouncement of King James... or be beheaded.........

I won't necessarily draw any conclusions between these connections, but I will post some articles below that have done so. I'm merely pointing out the erroneous translation of Ekklesia to "church".

Shalom,
yafet

Excellent...called out....I like that....in light of these congregations that gather together under a light and stop growing in the truth. They become a church, established organization, that in the...eon years since their inspired leader died have not changed. They are like lamp posts along the gentile history of learning about the truth. In Revelation, they are called out..seven churches...makes the words of the Lord take on a whole new meaning. Is it not true, that the Lord will always call us out of error and into more truth? Called out.....I like it.

Shalom

Visionary

 

[IKTCA]

At this time, there were no congregations comprised of Gentiles, nor were there any "churches". The believers attended synagogue and held messianic bible studies in their homes. The word in the Greek translated as "church" is Ekklesia, meaning "called out ones". So he is writing to the "called out ones" in the city of Ephesus.

[My apology for using the word church. Let me change it to "the called out."] My original question was that Yeshua had the letter written to those called out in Ephesus and that the called out in Ephesus were Gentiles.

According to Acts 2, synagogue was believers' gathering place. But soon the Jewish leaders oppressed them. They flogged Cephas and John. Then they stoned Stephen. Eventually, all believers were persecuted out of Jerusalem. Only apostles were left in the city.

In Acts 19, when Paul arrived in Ephesus, there were several who believed in the Way. They were baptized by Paul in the name of Yeshua and received the Holy Spirit. Their number was about 12.

Then Paul and the believers went to the synagogue and spent next 3 months to explain the Way. But Paul had to leave the synagogue because they refused to believe. So Paul and the believers went to the lecture hall of Tyrannus and preached the Way for 2 years, and many believed.

Based upon these, the called out in Ephesus were largely Gentiles. The believing Jews had to leave the synagogue in Ephesus. It is difficult to reconcile that the Gentile believers met in Jewish synagogues and worshiped G-d in the Way.

Why did Yeshua address to the Gentiles? As a Gentile believer, my hope in Yeshua is coming back. But I must reconcile this with "I came to the lost ones of Israel," before the hope gets too high.

 

[simchat_torah]

Yeshua had the letter written to those called out in Ephesus and that the called out in Ephesus were Gentiles.

This is an assumption based on a statement you make here in a bit...

Then Paul and the believers went to the synagogue and spent next 3 months to explain the Way. But Paul had to leave the synagogue because they refused to believe. So Paul and the believers went to the lecture hall of Tyrannus and preached the Way for 2 years, and many believed.

Based upon these, the called out in Ephesus were largely Gentiles.

Now, for a small word on how a synagogue operates:
Synagogues hold services on Shabbat (sabbath) on Friday night and Saturday. Teaching is not done at this time. A single Congregant will read through the parsha (torah portion for the week) before the shul (synagogue) and then the entire congregation will read through the siddur together. However, make special note: teaching is not done during this time. Three times, or sometimes more often, there are 'torah studies' that take place throughout the week. These are the times that Sha'ul (paul) and the other Netzarim (messianic believers of the first century) would teach in the synagogue. So while they may have been restricted from "teaching" in the synagogue, they certainly continued in worshipping together.

So, the first assumption is made that they no longer attended synagogue. The second assumption is that when they were no longer teaching in the synagogue that they changed who their outreach was going to. Considering the message of Yeshua was that of restoration of Israel, and subsequently also the message of the early believers, there is no indication that they changed messages when going to various public places in Ephesus.

In other words, there is no indication what so ever that the Ephesian Ekklesia (called out ones whom the letter was written to) was mainly of Gentile recipients.

According to Acts 2, synagogue was believers' gathering place. But soon the Jewish leaders oppressed them. They flogged Cephas and John. Then they stoned Stephen. Eventually, all believers were persecuted out of Jerusalem. Only apostles were left in the city.

this statement is also quite incorrect. In acts 21 we hear that there are literally thousands who have heard and believed within Jerusalem. Josephus (a Jewish Historian) records that the Netzarim were in great abundance well past the death of Yochanan (John). In fact, Yochanan was loved by all the people there and lived to a ripe old age. Yochanan never left Jerusalem, but continued in teaching Teshuvah until he grew quite old and subsequently died there.

This was the central hub of the Netzarim. This is where they continued to spread, and in fact continued to attend syangogues in Jerusalem.

The believing Jews had to leave the synagogue in Ephesus.

Actually, they were simply unallowed to 'teach' in the synagogue... as I previously pointed out.

It is difficult to reconcile that the Gentile believers met in Jewish synagogues and worshiped G-d in the Way.

Again, not necessarily. A Gentile was allowed into a synagogue if they were, at minimum, committed to the Noachide covenant. We can clearly see that in Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council, the leaders in Jerusalem upheld this 'rule of thumb' and instructed all of the "G-d Fearers" (new believers) to follow the Noachide covenant and then to continue in attending synagogue on shabbat. (see Jame's decision in Acts 15 for more details). In other words, by the very decision of those in charge of the Messianic sect in Jersualem, the new believers were to adhere to the noachide covenant and then continue in attending synagogue to learn the rest of Torah.

Why did Yeshua address to the Gentiles?

He never did... not even once. He did, at one point address a Samaritan woman. However, Samaritans were half-breed Jew/Gentiles so to speak. As well, this woman's heritage/ancestory (see the history of Solomon) was Jewish. Thus, she was one of the quintessential aspects of Yeshua's mission (at that time) to restore Israel as the beacon of light to the nations. However, again let me say, Yeshua never once addressed the Gentiles. All of his teachings, all of his parables, and all of his words... were directly spoken to the Jews.

As a Gentile believer, my hope in Yeshua is coming back.

Excellent. I also encourage you to look for your (our) messiah in the sky... Moshiach ben Dovid.

But I must reconcile this with "I came to the lost ones of Israel," before the hope gets too high.

This should not diminish your faith (aka: hope[/i] in things unseen). In fact, it should admonish your faith to continue to learn from Israel about who your Messiah truly is... the King of all.

shalom,
yafet

 

[IKTCA]

You said,

Yeshua never once addressed the Gentiles. All of his teachings, all of his parables, and all of his words... were directly spoken to the Jews.

Absolutely! That started this struggle. Thank you for kindly guiding me through.

One more thing I learned from you: The believers could attend synagogues if they kept silent. I can see it now. Probably, they did as much as they could.

But prosecution in Jerusalem was true.

At that time there was a great persecution against the believers which was at Jerusalem: and they were all scatered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

Saul made havock of the believers, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. (Acts 8:3)

At this point, even attending the synagogue must have become difficult in Jerusalem. Probably persecution was on and off?

In the letter that Paul wrote to the called-outs of Ephesian, I find this:

So then, remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth, called the uncircumcision by those who are called the circumcision - a physical circumcision made in the flesh by human hands - remember that you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without G-d in the world. (2:11-12)

Could this be the evidence that the Ephesian assembly was a Gentile one, and Yeshua DID address to Gentiles in spirit, though he did NOT during his walk on the earth. Remember, I am trying to find a thread (however thin it may be) that Yeshua addressed to Gentiles.

======================================

Second point that you made:

I also encourage you to look for your (our) messiah in the sky... Moshiach ben Dovid.

I really appreciate your encouragement. But there is one MAJOR problem.

Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (John 5:23)

I must honor Moshiac ben Yosef by keeping his commands (which are recorded in the 4 gospels and he also commanded to keep the Laws) to honor his Father. If I do not keep his commands, then I am dead now though I am alive.

I see a difference between Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben Dovid. Moshiach ben Yosef gave commands so that people could live upright. Moshiac ben Dovid comes in full glory. As soon as he comes, he will separate the keepers of the commands for life.

Do you see my dilemma? Moshiac ben Dovid will not give me new commands and say, "I will give you one year probation. If you keep these words, I will give you life." Nowhere in the scriptures I see this promise. Teaching life-saving commands was Moshiach ben Yosef's job. Moshiach ben Dovid reaps and harvests. Wheat will be gathered in the barn; weeds will be burnt.

In order to be selected by Moshiach ben Dovid, I must obey the commands of Moshiach ben Yosef. But I cannot because they were neither address nor applicable to me. I have no commands to keep. I WANT TO LIVE!

 

[simchat_torah]

I am actually running out of time... I've been helping my wife with a project for her children at school tommorow (she's a teacher at a school for gifted children) so I only have a few moments to make some quick comments:

But prosecution in Jerusalem was true.

At that time there was a great persecution against the believers which was at Jerusalem: and they were all scatered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. (Acts 8:1)

Saul made havock of the believers, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. (Acts 8:3)

I think that early on, the messianic movement was under a great deal of persecution because of the Roman "edginess" with uprisings etc (couple that with the idea that Yeshua was a false messiah), but it quickly settled into Judaic minds that this was a full fledged sect of Judaism and became recognized as such. You can read various Jewish writings of the "messianic sect" known as the Netzarim (nazarenes). One great place to start is Josephus' antiquities of the Jews.

Second point that you made:

"I also encourage you to look for your (our) messiah in the sky... Moshiach ben Dovid."

I really appreciate your encouragement. But there is one MAJOR problem.

Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (John 5:23)

I must honor Moshiac ben Yosef by keeping his commands (which are recorded in the 4 gospels and he also commanded to keep the Laws) to honor his Father. If I do not keep his commands, then I am dead now though I am alive.

This is quite true, but keep in mind Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben Dovid are the same person. We only really use the title "ben Yosef" to distinguish the role he played when he came the first time... to restore Israel as the light that shines upon the Messiah. He did not come in full glory, and continously pointed others to worship of the Father.

(see John 14:28)

In other words, by honoring Moshiach ben Dovid, you are honoring Yeshua. It is not a seperate person. It is merely his function, or what he came to do, that I am attempting to distinguish with Moshiach ben Yosef.

You see, Moshiach ben Yosef was not (is not) the true form of the Messiah. He took upon himself a lowly position in order to fulfill a specific mission. His true form is that of Moshiach ben Dovid. You will gain more by recognizing him for who he truly is. You honor him by recognizing him as the reigning king!

(more on this in a bit)...

I see a difference between Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben Dovid. Moshiach ben Yosef gave commands so that people could live upright. Moshiac ben Dovid comes in full glory. As soon as he comes, he will separate the keepers of the commands for life.

This is true. But don't mistake the roles distinguished between Moshiach ben Yosef and Dovid. The roles are quite discernable, though it is ... once again... the same person.

We honor the same messiah, but we recognize what his 'mission' was when he came the first time.

Do you see my dilemma? Moshiac ben Dovid will not give me new commands and say, "I will give you one year probation. If you keep these words, I will give you life." Nowhere in the scriptures I see this promise. Teaching life-saving commands was Moshiach ben Yosef's job. Moshiach ben Dovid reaps and harvests. Wheat will be gathered in the barn; weeds will be burnt.

I do understand the dilema. Trust me, I've been studying these exact things for a few years now (dedicating quite a bit of study to it in fact, with various Rabbis, etc). However, I have a solution Just kidding... well, sorta.







The most important part of this thread follows.....
=======================


The Gentiles are to turn to the teachers, Israel, for Torah instruction. The Gentiles were instructed (see Acts 15) to attend Synagogue on Shabbat to learn the rest of the instruction (aka: torah). Yes, much can be gleaned from Moshaich ben Yosef, but his words were specifically aimed at Israel. However, I can say this... you can never go wrong following the Messiah. But please keep in mind, at the same time, he was giving explicit instruction to Israel in that day (his first coming), in order to restore the marriage covenant that they had disavowed, the marriage vows which they broke. They had lost their role as the "teachers of the nations" and as the "light to the nations". This needed to be restored so that the Messiah would shine in his full glory.

In other words, now that Israel has been restored as the teachers of Torah, the gentiles are to sit at the feet of Israel to understand and comprehend who Moshiach truly is... his real nature, after all, is Moshiach ben Dovid (not a suffering servant)! He took a lowly place as ben Yosef, but this was not his true nature. His Nature is truly that of Moshiach ben Dovid, the reigning king! That is who he is! This is who Israel will point the Goyim unto!!!

I hope I am being clear on the issue, I don't want to muddy it up at all.

Anyway, I'll just address one more thing, then I really must run.

In order to be selected by Moshiach ben Dovid, I must obey the commands of Moshiach ben Yosef. But I cannot because they were neither address nor applicable to me. I have no commands to keep. I WANT TO LIVE!

Not exactly...
You see, it was Moshiach ben Dovid that gave the mitzvot (commandments) at Sinai. This is what Israel is to teach to the nations... "by this you shall have life and prosper" (joshua 1:8). This is what the gentiles were instructed to go and learn by the Jerusalem council. What was taught from Sinai was delivered by Moshiach ben Dovid himself, and what ben Yosef did was turn Israel back to the Torah.... aka: what was given at Mt. Sinai.

In other words, Yeshua did not bring any new teachings which you must be enlightened to. He simply called Israel to go back to what they had once been given, the teachings that had already been distributed! So, you don't necessarily need to study any "new" laws given by him. He did perfectly teach the Torah, and this is what you must live by, but Israel is to be the teachers of the nations... bringing Torah to the gentiles... this is what Y'shua was in the process of restoring.

"This will be life unto you" - Deuteronomy. So you DO have words and commands to live by. You are not without! Moshiach ben Yosef came to turn the people back to these words of life... not to bring new words.


=============================
(end of important part)









I know there are many others most likely reading this thread, and I encourage you to comment as well.
Until then...
shalom,
yafet

 

[IKTCA]

Simchat Torah,

Many thanks for writing such a heartfelt reply. From each of your replies, I learn something. This time I learned that the life-giving commandments were given by Moshiach ben Dovid in the desert. The more I think of it, the more I have to nod my head. That made me remember Paul's writing:

.....all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Moshiach. (1 corinthians 10:2-3)

Moshiach ben Dovid did not only give water and food, he also gave life-giving commandments. Thank you for the teaching.
=====================================
I have been thinking about my main question: Because Yeshua talked to Israel only, did his teaching apply to Israel only?

What about this?

For G-d so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. (John 3:16)

Here "world" is "kosmos." Though he said this to Israel, his life-giving power seems to apply to the world and all in the world. This teaching tells me that I can have eternal life if I believe in him. And who he is is plainly explained in the Torah and the four gospels. That's how I see.
=====================================
One more thing. You said Yeshua did not teach anything new or different from the Torah. I think you are probably right in the depth of spiritual realm. But I am not much spiritually inclined and the words of Torah do not come to my heart quickly. But the words of Yeshua in the 4 gospels come to me easily and stir my heart.

I once lost my job. I searched the 4 gospels and found Yeshua's teaching: I give you my peace. Though he said it to Israel, I gathered courage and said, "Yeshua, give me this peace." And he gave me the peace. Though I still was without a job, I had the peace unknown to me before.

When I read Yeshua healed all the sick Israelites who came to him, a believer and I, both Gentiles, asked Yeshua to heal her. And Yeshua healed her.

When I read Yeshua teaching Isrealites, "Repent. The kingdom is near," I asked Yeshua what I must repent. He showed me, and I repented.

To a crippled Pakistan woman, born to an Islamic clergy father, who had no hope of healing and was planning suicide, Yeshua appeared in voice and said, "I am Yeshua, the son of Myriam." She started to ask Yeshua to heal her for 3 years, though she knew nothing about the scriptures. One night Yeshua appeared with 12 disciples and healed her. She became a believer of Yeshua, the only one in her family. (The Torn Veil by Gulshan Esther)

The body of Yeshua spoke to Israel only. But the spirit of Yeshua seems to speak to both Israel and all Gentile nations.

This is all that I have studied so far. My apology for late reply.

 

[visionary]

I am a gentile, who is an sojourner with Israel, and I have found the God that gave the Torah to be the God that redeemed me. He that created me, redeemed me...and will come to take his people whom I am one home. I have no problem seeing the hand that wrote on the tables of stone the law, on the judgement upon the wall of Babylon, and on the sand of those that would accuse us to be the same hand that will gather me into his arms like one of His own. God the Father and the God, the Son are the same in character and spirit.

For you who is wondering if the Lord loves you, yes he does. When Jesus was on earth, he was on a mission. He was focused on those that have the truth, and needed the spirit of truth. Once He had a necleus of those that had the truth and the spirit of truth, they would go out in His name and spirit to spread the word to all the world. It is not that Jesus loves the gentiles any less. It was important to complete the mission that He was sent to do. The wise men of the east were not of Jewish birth, but they were knowledgeable enough to know the truth that even the people that were suppose to know missed. They were lead to the baby in the manger and they went home praising the Lord for His Son.

May you be blessed with a feeling of being a part of the family of God.

Visionary