Can you prove Reality, exists (without refering to reality)?

Your Friend Jacob · Aug 29, 2012

The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, and that the amount of matter in the universe remains constant. If the First Law is correct, which every scientific measurement ever made has confirmed, then the universe could not have created itself, it must have been created in the past, no further creating must be going on, and no loss of creation is occurring. The Bible is the only religious book that correctly portrays the First Law by 1) its description in Genesis of a Creator who is no longer creating, and 2) a Creator who is "upholding all things by the word of his power (NKJ, Heb 1:3)" . The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all systems degenerate from order to disorder, was regarded by Albert Einstein to be the premier Law in science. Again the Bible is the only religious book to accurately describe this Law: "For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, the earth will grow old like a garment... (NKJ, Isa 51:6)", and also a New Testament rendering: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; (NKJ, Heb 1:10-11)"
on that note I will like to see what you have to say.......

variant · Aug 29, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
[FONT=trebuchet ms,helvetica,sans-serif]First you must look outside your closed system and look beyond the blinders of how you see the World. You must first take yourself out of the box and see for yourself what is real. Its easy to disregard things and push them to the side rather than accept what is and could be. Enough with the God doesn't exist, you cannot disprove him as much as I can factually prove his existence. God leaves imprints and weather or not your looking for them will all depend on your interpretation and outlook on the world and how you see things. If you ask a believer about God they can give you pages of both miracles, and personal experiences, you ask a non-believer and their "substantial" evidence for God not existing is both shaky and non-existant because if such a credible thing existed the lack of faith in the world would be overwhelming.

Why not instead give me one thing where I don't depend on you and your interpretation to evidence what you say?

That is what I mean when I say I want evidence.

If you wish to understand and know God you must disregard all man made laws, for the True law is written on the heart and enforced by the spirit in love, that is for those who seek Him. What un-believers offer is gratification of the flesh and perversion, making laws to protect those who wish to shun and turn their heads and backs on God. Its quite depleating if you ask me, its like when a child turns away from a parent and acts as if they are not their. Inside the child's system, and way of thinking it puts them in their own "world," but reality is that the parent is still there. As much as you want to think God does not exist it comes down to reality, and reality says otherwise. Everything has a beginning, the world, you, me, that must have a creator ! If a artist never painted a painting then the thought would be just that, a thought, and un-existant. God is real, and God created what little we know as our galaxy. Give or take....[/FONT]

I'm not even really sure what you are talking about here but it certainly isn't convincing.

Illuminaughty · Aug 29, 2012

Enough with the God doesn't exist, you cannot disprove him as much as I can factually prove his existence.

Enough with God does exist too then right?

Your Friend Jacob · Aug 29, 2012

variant said:
I don't intend to answer it.

Because you do not know nor have a sufficient answer, but saying you do not know is a sufficient answer ! So I guess that is the answer to my question. Which leads me to something else, you do not know what you stand for because the spiritual is still in mind since there is no credible evidence against it being true. Therefore what is keeping you from believing in God ?

Illuminaughty · Aug 29, 2012

The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, and that the amount of matter in the universe remains constant.

So matter and energy can never be created or destroyed.... yet God created it? If the first law were always applicable in such a strict sense (as per your definition) the universe would have to be eternal. There is matter and energy now. Matter and energy can not be created or destroyed. Therefore matter and energy must have always been here. God creating it would be a violation of the law (or your version of it) you are using to prove your point.

variant · Aug 29, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
The 1st Law of Thermodynamics states that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, and that the amount of matter in the universe remains constant. If the First Law is correct, which every scientific measurement ever made has confirmed, then the universe could not have created itself, it must have been created in the past, no further creating must be going on, and no loss of creation is occurring. The Bible is the only religious book that correctly portrays the First Law by 1) its description in Genesis of a Creator who is no longer creating, and 2) a Creator who is "upholding all things by the word of his power (NKJ, Heb 1:3)" .

Again for posterity. The first law of thermodynamics states:

First law of thermodynamics: Heat and work are forms of energy transfer. Energy is invariably conserved but the internal energy of a closed system changes as heat and work are transferred in or out of it. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the first kind are impossible.

It actually says that energy is conserved and nothing about the amount of matter in the universe being constant.

Whether the universe is a "closed system" is not known.

If the first law implied that matter can't be created or destroyed it would already be proven wrong by nuclear weapons.

If the first law said that matter can not be created then it actually disallows creation by the universe or God or the creation of the universe in general.

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states that all systems degenerate from order to disorder, was regarded by Albert Einstein to be the premier Law in science. Again the Bible is the only religious book to accurately describe this Law: "For the heavens will vanish away like smoke, the earth will grow old like a garment... (NKJ, Isa 51:6)", and also a New Testament rendering: "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; (NKJ, Heb 1:10-11)"
on that note I will like to see what you have to say.......

So what?

Your Friend Jacob · Aug 29, 2012

variant said:
For the sake of posterity Newtons third law of thermodynamics actually states:

Newtons third law of motion states:

Nowhere does this imply that "physical" has an opposite.

Is the physical and the spiritual not a force ?

variant · Aug 29, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
Because you do not know nor have a sufficient answer, but saying you do not know is a sufficient answer ! So I guess that is the answer to my question. Which leads me to something else, you do not know what you stand for because the spiritual is still in mind since there is no credible evidence against it being true. Therefore what is keeping you from believing in God ?

I don't need a sufficient answer.

Your painful misunderstanding of Isaac Newton saying something he didn't say and a bad understanding thereafter kind of refutes itself.

Illuminaughty · Aug 29, 2012

Whether the universe is a "closed system" is not known.

Or the multiverse for that matter.

variant · Aug 29, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
Is the physical and the spiritual not a force ?

That isn't the point of our debate, nor will it become a point of discussion.

Newton didn't say what you said, he said he said this:

Third law: When two bodies interact by exerting force on each other, these forces (termed the action and the reaction) are equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction.

Newtons third law governs motion not metaphysics.

Your Friend Jacob · Aug 29, 2012

If you say so....im done here, you have no open mind I am sorry to say. I could say the sky was blue and you would say otherwise, just looking for an argument, no sense of truth...God bless you

variant · Aug 29, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
If you say so....im done here, you have no open mind I am sorry to say. I could say the sky was blue and you would say otherwise, just looking for an argument, no sense of truth...God bless you

Good luck. I hope they teach you some physics in high school.

Danyc · Aug 29, 2012

If this were not a religious discussion, you would have been laughed out of your own home by your own family years ago.

Go back to school.

Lord Emsworth · Aug 30, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
Did not expect you to understand my statement in the fist place, no harm no foul.

I do understand your statement. And I know why it fails. Have you looked up "equivocation"?

Eudaimonist · Aug 30, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
Hmmm...nice try at mockery, but try, try again.

That's not mockery. It's a counterexample for you to seriously consider.

First and foremost they do not worship these things, they are rather a folktale

So what? They believe that those entities exist. That's the point.

The biggest difference in your argument is that no-one (sane) can claim that they have seen one.

Not so. I know someone personally who claims to have seen one, and he is quite sane.

Many believers have seen, talk and have a relationship with God. (My self included)

Must I now conclude that you are not sane? The only reason you say that people who claim to have seen gnomes or trolls are not sane is because you don't believe that gnomes or trolls exist.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Your Friend Jacob · Aug 30, 2012

I said I'm gonna skedaddle, sayonara....what language do I have to speak for you to hear me clearly. Why continue on ? You spoke your peace and so did I. Accept the facts, God is real and not a lie. Your living in a facade, camouflaged before your eyes. Cast it from you before you self destruct and thus die. Go to heaven ta be judged, the same love you show for Him, is what ya get in return. I plead with you, bow down on your knees and learn. Or to hell ya go...and sadly burn. Turn to Christ and live forever, unless eternal torment is not a concern...dont cast your pearls before the swine

God bless you, and hope you turn, to Christ is eternal life....just know forever he loves you, he paid the ultimate sacrifice

quatona · Aug 30, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
I have a question for you and something to ponder.... I noticed your an atheist therefore you understand simple science/s. Isaac Newtons third law of thermodynamics states that EVERYTHING has an equal but opposite reaction.

No, it doesn´t. Someone must have lied to you.
It´s always a good idea to check the accuracy of claims before you spread them.

Science is based upon this principle so denying what I am about to say will violate everything you stand for, thus self defeating so bear with me.

Science deals with the physical world.

Eudaimonist · Aug 30, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
I said I'm gonna skedaddle, sayonara....what language do I have to speak for you to hear me clearly. Why continue on ? You spoke your peace and so did I. Accept the facts, God is real and not a lie............

Why is it that you say that you've spoken your peace, and then continue on as if you hadn't?

I'm sorry, but it is not a fact that God is real, and you have done nothing to show that it is one.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Gadarene · Aug 30, 2012

TScott said:
No thanks. I always try hard not to be insulting to people here on this board.

Says the guy who just referred to my post as droppings.

It's a Philosophy board on a Christian website. Now a may not be the best Christian, and by many of the standards set by Christians here I'm probably not a christian at all, but I respect that it is their site, and I respect their beliefs and assume in most cases that they are genuine. I believe your edit was immature, insulting and patronizing, and not condusive to philosophical discussion.
It's a Philosophy board. Not a politics or apologetics board. Free thinking should be encouraged, not discouraged. Your little edit discouraged any further discussion from me.

You say it's not an apologetics board, but the "can you prove X really loves you" is a straight up apologetics tactic. And if you really want to sit there and claim that there is some equivalency between making observations of the behaviour of someone we can actually see and knowing as sure as can be that they exist, and something that largely appears to act only in the subjective realm of the human mind - maybe you are sincerely tendering this argument, but it seems straight up disingenuous any which way you cut it.

And I'm not just repeating the fact that these questions would be intolerable with regard to any other subject just to be a troll, I'm serious about it. It is a glaring inconsistency in how Christians defend their belief in the existence of God, with respect to how they justify belief in the existence of everything else. This thread topic is a prime example of it, and it also resorts to an apologetics tactic. For any other posited entity X that someone claims is real, and if when challenged they suddenly verge into the realm of "but is reality really real? Is it really really real?", it would be highly likely that you wouldn't take that person seriously anymore. So if you're going to special-plead, you better have some darn good reasons for doing so. Again, maybe you are being serious - in which case I apologise for my delivery, but not the content - but I've only ever seen these arguments being used by Christians trying yet again to force a parity between positions that isn't justified (see also "but atheism is a religion too", "atheists have as much faith as we do" and other incredibly tired, feeble canards).

Lord Emsworth · Aug 30, 2012

Your Friend Jacob said:
I said I'm gonna skedaddle, sayonara....what language do I have to speak for you to hear me clearly. Why continue on ? You spoke your peace and so did I. Accept the facts, God is real and not a lie. Your living in a facade, camouflaged before your eyes. Cast it from you before you self destruct and thus die. Go to heaven ta be judged, the same love you show for Him, is what ya get in return. I plead with you, bow down on your knees and learn. Or to hell ya go...and sadly burn. Turn to Christ and live forever, unless eternal torment is not a concern...dont cast your pearls before the swine

Sadly, you seem to have no pearls of wisdom to offer anyway. Or did you rather see yourself in the role of the swine?

Can you prove Reality, exists (without refering to reality)?

Your Friend Jacob

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Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves.

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"God"? What do you mean??

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