Can you believe in YEC and still be a scientist?

i dont believe in a false dichotomy between science and faith. i believe true science and true faith will truly harmonize. that's why i reject evolution. it's actually the theistic evolutionists that present a dichotomy -- they tinker with both the science and the faith to try to make them fit together, thus demonstrating that they don't actually fit together.

Maher is on our side, so nana nana boo boo!

GregConstantine said:

"On a similar line of thought, how do YEC explain the fact that we can see stars and galaxies that are millions of light years away? If the universe was created roughly six thousand years ago, then we should only see celestial objects that are roughly six thousand light years away, and no farther."

Not only that, but, it takes the light from a star the number of light years away it is to travel to your eyes. For example, when you look at Alpha Centauri, which is 4 light years away, you are literally seeing the star 4 years ago. 4 earth years is how long it took the light from Alpha Centauri to reach your eyes. So if a star is say, 10 million light years away, you are seeing that star, 10 million years ago! Which means it existed 10 million years ago!

Click to expand...

Yrs, that's what I meant.

the assumption is that the light was not already reaching earth when God created it. We aren't given such information either way. No reason to assume we have to wait for the light to reach us.

"no one is disputing this point of yours"

Not accurate.

GregConstantine said:

They actually believe you can't be a real scientist and believe in YEC, so yeah.

Click to expand...

then bring their quotes and opinions into this thread, and actually say something pertinent that helps the conversation. I am sure there are many Orthodox scientists out there who agree with that point, so just pointing out that they are there doesn't actually help.

GregConstantine said:

Not only that, but, it takes the light from a star the number of light years away it is to travel to your eyes. For example, when you look at Alpha Centauri, which is 4 light years away, you are literally seeing the star 4 years ago. 4 earth years is how long it took the light from Alpha Centauri to reach your eyes. So if a star is say, 10 million light years away, you are seeing that star, 10 million years ago! Which means it existed 10 million years ago!

Click to expand...

or God could have created it visible from the beginning, which means it might not be 10 million years old! God could have created a star 10 million lightyears away visible from earth 30,000 years ago. not saying He did, but that He could.

GregConstantine said:

Not accurate.

Click to expand...

yeah it is. you are keeping these points around, saying that folks dispute them, even after everyone else has moved on.

"yeah it is."

Nope, you have to actually read the treads. Like I said, not reading for other people.

"then bring their quotes and opinions into this thread"

I'm sorry Matt, but we have better things to do. I'm not going to bother them by going up to them now and asking for a direct quote, I'm not a reporter, you'll have to take my word for it.

GregConstantine said:

Nope, you have to actually read the treads. Like I said, not reading for other people.

Click to expand...

default response again.

GregConstantine said:

I'm sorry Matt, but we have better things to do. I'm not going to bother them by going up to them now and asking for a direct quote, I'm not a reporter, you'll have to take my word for it.

Click to expand...

I believe you, but merely pointing out that you know certain folks who view things a certain way doesn't help the thread. and I did not ask for a direct quote, but something concrete that actually helps move things along. sorry, not gonna just listen to what you have to say simply because you say it. the guys that I disagree with on this issue (gzt, truefiction) don't do that.

ArmyMatt said:

then bring their quotes and opinions into this thread, and actually say something pertinent that helps the conversation. I am sure there are many Orthodox scientists out there who agree with that point, so just pointing out that they are there doesn't actually help.



or God could have created it visible from the beginning, which means it might not be 10 million years old! God could have created a star 10 million lightyears away visible from earth 30,000 years ago. not saying He did, but that He could.

Click to expand...

Just to deceive us? Why would God do that?

Tallguy88 said:

Just to deceive us? Why would God do that?

Click to expand...

not to deceive us, the only deception if that were the case would be on our part, and it would be self deception. what we know is the distance and how fast light travels. our assumption that it is 10 million year old light would be the error, and that would be on our part.

and again, I say if that were the case.

to look at it from the other POV, in the Wisdom of Solomon, it says that God did not create death. you can read that as only meaning human death (as many do) or you can read it meaning all death to include animals and plants (as I do). so say that evolution is true and the death that is being spoken of means only human death. that means that I am wrong not because God did something deceptive, but I misread the Scripture. the error and deceit is on me, even if unintentional

You know, Greg, I love astronomy. I was always a big Star Trek/Star Wars/Starblazers fan, and when I went to uni, I took Astronomy 101 just as an elective, because I love it.

Just in case you think I'm some kind of "destroy knowledge!" Luddite...

just for clarification, the Wisdom of Solomon passage is actually explicity about all life:

Wisdom of Solomon 1:13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.

14 For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth:

Maher is on our side. just take his word for it.

whoops

Just accept that God (or maybe the devil!) planted dinosaur bones, geological layers, body parts that don't serve a purpose, and stars to test our faith, guys.

Isaac32 said:

Just accept that God (or maybe the devil!) planted dinosaur bones, geological layers, body parts that don't serve a purpose, and stars to test our faith, guys.

Click to expand...

Well, of course I don't think that. I think real evidence is real. But evidence of what? It is not the thing we can observe I object to, it is the assumptions and calculations regarding it that I think actually flawed, because they depend on the absence of unknown variables (as I have already said); they assume that we know all conditions in space and time and there are none that we do not know; all calculations are based on assumptions that are huge IFs.
In short, calculations about the earth's age are ultimately unimportant, because they really are a game, child's play (perhaps conducted seriously by men in white coats, but child's play none the less). It is about things we cannot see, and can only guess - however educated the guess - but it is a fact that such games, when taken seriously, DO challenge our faith, not because they are a true challenge, but because we have made the mistake of taking them seriously, and of placing temporal and imaginary knowledge on the level of importance of what the Church teaches us - eternal truth. From there we begin pontificating on how "the fathers didn't know everything" (as if they had claimed that they did) and begin doubting, on ever increasing scales, what they would teach us. We begin with small things, like the age of the world, and gradually proceed to doubt more and more of what seems miraculous, scientifically improbable, and so on. Professing to be wise ourselves, we become fools.

Hi,
I do research. It is all I do. It is how I think. I started in 1969, and with any luck my last research probject is over, and I can start the next one.
In Genisis 1:28 God blessed us with subdue the earth. That is also a command. All blessings of God are also commands of God.
As a scientist of sorts, (my definition of my abilities), I don't get to make conclusions. I only get to summarize my findings.
Until God tells me or anyone, or shows me or anyone, How He did, I am under full restrictions to use Genesis 1:28, and so I don't get to mix my emotions, feelings, and guesses, into what we as scientists have found so far.
YEC, or any other guess, is left alone, unless, the research shows it cannot be dismissed. God, or any guesses about Him, is left alone without proof also, and that is precisely how I treated the concept of God, until the proofs were done on The Bible.
Since summarizing those, controlled experiments. The Bible is Real, and God is Real, because The Bible is Real. I said that to reassure you that, my knowledge includes God also, but it was done by research, using the standard research methods.

To know that God is Real, allows me to be a Chrisitian quite well, but I no longer have to work on young earth, or a 13.5 Billion year old universe, and a 3.5 Billion year old earth, to believe in God.

I am not sure why this issue is so important, to some people, to the point of denying what God Commanded us to do, science.

I am sympathetic, to those who see a young earth. And without proof one way or another, I not only won't say anything, but I can't say anything, without violating the scientifc method that developed from God's Command, by, Blessing, from subdue the earth.

The problem I see in this whole thing, is not knowing what God really said. Yes, I do mean that so many people just pick a defintion for some words in the Bible and then use those whether or not they are correct.

A man said here, that science needs theology and philosopy. Actually that is used in Science at the levels that I worked in. Yet, Science and Philosophy is needed in Religion also. And Relgion and science is needed in Philosphy also. I have never seen any of those, not needing the others to get better answers.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Isaac32 said:

Just accept that God (or maybe the devil!) planted dinosaur bones, geological layers, body parts that don't serve a purpose, and stars to test our faith, guys.

Click to expand...

can you quote anybody on this forum saying this? if not, you're just being rude and mocking your fellow Orthodox Christians.

jckstraw72 said:

can you quote anybody on this forum saying this? if not, you're just being rude and mocking your fellow Orthodox Christians.

Click to expand...

These things are implied by the statement "the world is only 6000 years old." One can use Russ's approach and make silly arguments that demonstrate that one doesn't actually understand how things are dated, but ultimately denying that the world is older (much much older) than 6000 years is akin to denying the holocaust or the moon landing. Those people get mocked all the time.