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Can we discuss women priests and same sex marriage here?-Anglican/Old Catholic Only

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gtsecc

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I am not completely convinced, but I am beginning to think that if one is for women priests they must also be for same sex marriages.
Both involve the change of the gender of a person involved in the sacrament.

Please notice I did not state my personal opinion for or against either of these, I just stated that they are theologically connected in how you understand sacraments.
 

karen freeinchristman

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gtsecc said:
How is the gender change OK in one, but not in the other?
good question!

I am currently reflecting quite a lot on these two issues. Answers are hard to come by.
 
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TomUK

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I'm probably being really stupid here, but if two homosexual men 'marry', one of whom is a Priest, then how does that change the gender of the Priest who administers the sacrament?
 
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Thomas2618

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TomUK said:
I'm probably being really stupid here, but if two homosexual men 'marry', one of whom is a Priest, then how does that change the gender of the Priest who administers the sacrament?

As far as Women and ordination is involved the gender is changed in the Sacrament. As far as same sex marriage, the gender is changed because the "celebrant" of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony is not the priest but the Man and Woman who are being married. That is why the Church recognizes a civil marriages between a man and a woman.
 
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gtsecc

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TomUK said:
I'm probably being really stupid here, but if two homosexual men 'marry', one of whom is a Priest, then how does that change the gender of the Priest who administers the sacrament?

For 2,000 years, in the sacrament of HolyOrders, Priests have been men.

For 2,000 years the person a woman marries, in the sacrament of marriage, has been a man.
 
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karen freeinchristman

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gtsecc said:
How is the gender change OK in one, but not in the other?

I am not saying it is OK in one and not OK in the other; but there seems to me to be some kind of difference in the two cases. I am not convinced that it matters, so don't jump on me about this. :) I am just honing my debating skills! Here we go, then:

In the case of ordaining women, the change in gender is the only change; the mode of action of the ministry has not changed. In the case of same-sex marriage, the gender changes AND the mode of action of the marriage changes, in procreative terms.


Gosh, this is a terribly old-fashioned statement to make! As if procreation is 'the' mode of action in marriage! :doh:
 
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Finella

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And if we're getting into issues of gender, how do you define gender? Genitalia? Chromosomes? If one over the other, which one and why? Because they don't necessarily match in all cases. There are people who appear to be female but who have XXY genes.

What about transgendered persons? Does a woman who undergoes a sex-change operation to become a man not qualify for ordination because of his gender?
 
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TomUK

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Thomas2618 said:
As far as Women and ordination is involved the gender is changed in the Sacrament.

This may be my second stupid post in the same thread, but could you please point me towards a document which says that at ordination a women's gender is changed.

I seem to be getting very confused all of a sudden...
 
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Polycarp1

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gtsecc said:
For 2,000 years, in the sacrament of HolyOrders, Priests have been men.

For 2,000 years the person a woman marries, in the sacrament of marriage, has been a man.

And for 2,000 years the ordinary minister of Holy Baptism has been a man, even though it's been valid theology across Christendom that a woman is equally capable of baptizing.

I don't see the equivalence. Other than, "That's what we've done, and it happens to be (male human being) men, in each case."

The questions in my mind are:

What are the characters implicit in the minister of the Eucharist, that make the nature of the person who confects it such as to make it valid or invalid?

What is the theology of marriage, that warrants establishing criteria as to who may validly contract it in sacramental fashion?

Reducing it to the basis of sex (gender) is highly simplistic. As well might we have decided, some years back, "A bishop must always be a man, because only a man may sit in the House of Lords; any English bishop is entitled to sit in the Lords if he holds one of five sees or is among the 23 other most senior bishops; and it is appropriate that all bishops be held to the same standard throughout the communion."

There may be valid reasons against women receiving Holy Orders. (I haven't heard any myself.) But the idea that it's a parallel to gay marriage just plain hits my boggle quotient.

By the way, how about the reverse in your second historical statement:

"For 2,000 years the person a man marries, in the sacrament of marriage, has been a woman."

Should this be taken to infer that only women should receive ordination?
 
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john23237

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TomUK said:
I'm probably being really stupid here, but if two homosexual men 'marry', one of whom is a Priest, then how does that change the gender of the Priest who administers the sacrament?

If he thought it would, the partner would never have married the priest! Think about it.;)
 
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gtsecc

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Polycarp1 said:
By the way, how about the reverse in your second historical statement:

"For 2,000 years the person a man marries, in the sacrament of marriage, has been a woman."

Should this be taken to infer that only women should receive ordination?

I don't think you see my point.

If I am implying anything, it is that it is inconsistant to be for Women's ordination, and not for same sex amrriages.
 
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gtsecc

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The tradition is that a man is ordained to the Priesthood.
Preisthood has always ment a man was involved.
When a woman is ordained, the sex of person undergoing the sacrament (not the Bishop doign the ordaining) is not what it has been traditionally.

The tradition is that a man and woman are married - 1 of each.
When two women or two men are married, the sex of the person undergoing the sacrament (not the Bishop or Priest doing the marriage) is not what it has been traditionally.

So, it seems to me, you have to accept same sex marriages if you are going to accept female priests. I'm not totally convinced, but it is worth pondering for now.
 
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karen freeinchristman

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TomUK said:
This may be my second stupid post in the same thread, but could you please point me towards a document which says that at ordination a women's gender is changed.

I seem to be getting very confused all of a sudden...
This will probably confuse you even more, but I'll have a go.

It is not that the woman's gender is being changed at ordination, obviously. I don't think anyone would want to have to change their gender in order to be ordained! It is that the traditional gender of the ordinand is male, and so in the case of ordaining women, her gender is different (it is female) from the traditional (male) gender.

Does that help any, Tom? :)
 
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Little Brother

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Couldn't same sex marriage be somekind of test for our love of everyone regardless of what their preferences are?Can someone point out where it says in the bible that homosexuality is against God or anything like that?We as Christians need to learn to love EVERYONE.I think that is something that is missing from every church.We cast ourselves to be above sinners etc. when we ourselves are sinners.God loves everyone and expects the same of us.Nuff said.
 
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