Can there be morality without God?

only a sojourner said:

I was once close to being an atheist and plumbed the depths of nihilism and existentialism. I t was through God's mercy, love and miraculous intervention that I am where I am today. Knowing what I know it would extemely foolish to turn my back on God's grace. Truth will not be found or comprehended through argument. I could debate these topics ad infinitum. Understanding comes through revelation and a personal experience of God's grace and power. My purpose here was to show the lack of foundation behind humanism and how atheism devolves into moral nihilism. Seek God with your whole heaet and I believe you will find him.

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I told you there were no foundations... what does that prove except for your own fears and needs? Maybe the world is just as scary and hopeless as you are afraid of it being. What will you do about it?

You'll keep living, just like everyone else and do what seems right to you just like everyone else. I do almost the same things you do and I didn't need your fake moral structures to do it.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Well I do think my lack of belief in authoritative and designing deities coaxed me along to concluding that I don't really have a purpose for being here, that none of this was really designed or destined and there was no intent involved, any intent or purpose we had to create ourselves and since that's the case... how can we assert that anything really is really right or wrong? We're using our own fears, desires and needs to establish that and should we? I don't think so.

I do think MORAL Nihilism is a predictable outcome of atheism, though moral nihilism is not the conclusion that life has no meaning and that we won't have any concern over what we do or do to others. I desire to take care of myself and I desire to take care of my loved ones... that puts me in the same place as everyone else and I didn't need morality in order to get there.

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I think we are in agreement - we may just be using differing terminologies.

There are two things we construct for ourselves. A meaning or purpose to our lives. And a concept of what is 'right and wrong'.

It does not matter what our belief structure is. The theist, I submit, equally constructs his own purpose and his own moral code. It's just that, having done so, he prefers to confer the 'credit' to the deity of his choice.

only a sojourner said:

For the atheists: If you are truly honest doesn't atheism lead to nihilism?

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No.

How can there be any objective moraility?

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I can´t make sense of the term "objective morality" - with or without a God.
Anyway, not believing that there is an objective morality doesn´t equal nihilism.

You and various others may come to some consensus that you would prefer to live under some form of "humanism" but even here there is wide diversity among atheists as to what this means in practical application.

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Yes. This is also true for theists, though.

A Marxist and a follower of Ayn Rand would come to very different conclusions on many aspects of how society should be arranged and how people should treat each other.

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Sure...so?
How does the fact that other persons have different convictions than I have make me a nihilist?
Does the fact that other theists come to very different conclusions than you make you a nihilist?

But behind it all there is absolutely nothing extrinsically wrong with cutting a persons throat for the sheer pleasure and exhileration of doing so.

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I´m not sure I understand what you mean by "extrinsically" here, and if and how this qualifier is important to you.
But maybe you could explain to me how the existence of a God would change that?

Basically to put this whole thread in layman's terms

Morality is and always will be a fallacy. And this fallacy is Argumentum ad Populum.

The masses agree but is it really? It's always been this way. Good example: Civil War. "The North agrees with me so I'm right!" "The south agrees with me so I'm right!"

[Straw man]: But we all agree that killing is wrong, right?

Isis and Boko Haram would disagree.

There. Enough of these circles.

only a sojourner said:

For the atheists: If you are truly honest doesn't atheism lead to nihilism?

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Nope. Ethical philosophy is an interest of mine, and I have been honestly thinking about the subject of justifying ethics without appeal to gods for the past two decades. Nihilism is certainly not a required solution.

How can there be any objective moraility?

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It's because there is objective human well-being. As human beings, we have natural function which sets the standard for desirable character and action. (Note: it is the standard of morality that is objective, not the moral ideas themselves.)

You and various others may come to some consensus that you would prefer to live under some form of "humanism" but even here there is wide diversity among atheists as to what this means in practical application.

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Yes, there is diversity among religious views on society as well. So what?

A Marxist and a follower of Ayn Rand would come to very different conclusions on many aspects of how society should be arranged and how people should treat each other.

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Yes, they would. A religious socialist and a religious capitalist would as well. So what?

But behind it all there is absolutely nothing extrinsically wrong with cutting a persons throat for the sheer pleasure and exhileration of doing so.

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That says more about you than me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

only a sojourner said:

Obviously GrimkingGrim social cohesion or some form of social contract appeals to you. You could however chose not value social cohesion or adopt a morality of selfishly exploiting other people to enhance your own personal interests or your could decide to become a philanthropist selflessly giving to others even at the expense of your own comfort and wellbeing,

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A theist (even a divine command theist) could choose not to value obedience to God.

An atheist it seems to me must create value and meaning since there is no extrinsic value or meaning.

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You seem to use "extrinsic" as a synonym for "divinely commanded"? In which case I would agree: Without a God there is no divinely commanded moral code.
If you mean something beyond this trivially true statement, please explain.

Basically anything and everything is allowed.

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I understand how that appears to be a problem for someone who feels that morality needs to be commanded in order to be morality. I don´t share this premise. Neither would it strike me as "objective" - it would be the subjective opinion of God.
Then again, if you believe there´s a God, you have to acknowledge that all these choices still exist - so quite obviously even with a God everything is allowed.

An atheist can construct whatever moral systems appeals to them or strikes their fancy.

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A theist can construct whatever god concept appeals to them or strikes their fancy, and ascribe whatever moral ideas to this god that appeal to them or strike their fancy.

only a sojourner said:

An atheist can construct whatever moral systems appeals to them or strikes their fancy.

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Anyone can do that. There are people who "shop" for a religion, or a denomination. Also, religious people confuse their own values for God's opinion quite frequently. For instance, if you were to plot the political views of all Christians on a two dimensional political maps, you'd see many dots in all quadrants.

However, I personally don't believe that what is appealing to me personally is necessarily true of reality. I don't look for appeal in ethics, as if I were in a shopping mall and looking for a new pair of shoes. I care about the quality of the arguments for that ethics. I seek after truth, not mere appeal.

If you think that it's all about appeal, that says more about you than me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Read the bible and don't skip any pages and you will see that the god of the old testament in the most immoral character ever. he punished his children by make them suffer before even teaching them right and wrong then expects them to know right and wrong, kills millions of people and billions of animals with the great flood considering that in a population demographic 25% of the people were children and have done nothing, makes a faithful man almost sacrifices is child, kills again children's in Egypt ( could have killed the pharaoh) and many many other immoral things so please please please read the Bible and don't skip

double post

commonsence said:

Read the bible and don't skip any pages and you will see that the god of the old testament in the most immoral character ever. he punished his children by make them suffer before even teaching them right and wrong then expects them to know right and wrong, kills millions of people and billions of animals with the great flood considering that in a population demographic 25% of the people were children and have done nothing, makes a faithful man almost sacrifices is child, kills again children's in Egypt ( could have killed the pharaoh) and many many other immoral things so please please please read the Bible and don't skip

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Perhaps you ought to follow your own instructions and read all the passages that state God as loving, kind, and forgiving as well instead of skipping all those parts to focus on what you perceive as God being evil. That way you will get the whole picture instead of a one sided one in which you have chosen to do.

What you are stating is according to what you think with your limited knowledge. You are now claiming to know the mind of God by claiming all the things that God should have done and shouldn't have done. So you are no elevating yourself above God. God is way more knowledgeable than you or any human. He is all knowing so He knew what was going to happen in the future. He knew what those people who were judged were like and that they were never going to repent. He knew that their children would grow up the same. He knew that their sin would spread like a cancer and affect many and in fact would do more harm than anything you perceive God to have done as wrong. It was proven when God told the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites. But they left some alive including the children. They grew up to sin and come again to attack the Israelites later.

The children were actually saved from a life of sin and being possibly sacrificed by their own people as part of their immoral pagan worship. Any child who wasn't at the age of knowing right from wrong would have been taken into heaven. So in the long run they have eternal life rather than being condemned for their sin if they had grown up to do the same thing. The sins of the parents can rub off into the children and then sin becomes their way of life. God knew this and He actually gave warnings to all before hand and in some cases He gave warnings of 100s of years. So they knew they were defying God and they were given the chance to repent. But they choose to reject God and put themselves above God.

God takes no pleasure in judging and punishing sinners. But it has to be done otherwise there is no use in have right and wrong if there are no consequences for wrong. As humans we do the same when we take action against evil doings such as terrorists. We bomb their women and children as part of that action. We did that in the 2nd world war and nuked millions of children. But all the allied forces seen this as acceptable part of winning a war to stop an evil regime which practiced evil deeds. Yet God who is all knowing and more worthy to judge does the same. But He knows that it is the exact right action as He can see all the consequences that would happen if no action was taken.

God is righteous and all loving. This is seen many times in the bible for which you choose to ignore. But the greatest testimony of God is in Jesus Christ. He is the manifestation of God who came to earth. He is the same God in the flesh for us to see before our eyes. So if you want to know what God was really like then look to Jesus because He is the one we actually seen on earth. He proves that God is loving and sinless because He was loving and sinless. So no matter what you want to twist in those old testament stories into being evil we can see the true nature of God in Jesus.

In Ezekiel 18:23 we read, “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?” (see also Ezek. 33:11).

First, the sins of parents, just like their successes, have an impact on their children.

Second, if the Canaanite children were allowed to live and remain in the land, they could very well act to avenge their parents when they grew up, or at least to pick up again the practices of their parents.

Third, if one holds that there is an age of accountability for children, and that those younger than that are received into heaven with God at their death, although the means of death were frightful and harsh, the Canaanite children’s experience after death would be better than if they’d continued to live among such a sinful people.
https://www.probe.org/god-and-the-canaanites/

commonsence said:

Read the bible and don't skip any pages and you will see that the god of the old testament in the most immoral character ever. he punished his children by make them suffer before even teaching them right and wrong then expects them to know right and wrong, kills millions of people and billions of animals with the great flood considering that in a population demographic 25% of the people were children and have done nothing, makes a faithful man almost sacrifices is child, kills again children's in Egypt ( could have killed the pharaoh) and many many other immoral things so please please please read the Bible and don't skip

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Yes indeed. You make a very strong argument.

But it goes further. The cruel immorality of this supposed being extends further than the tales of the Old Testament. This supremely powerful, all-knowing being that could see no other solution than the repeated slaughter of various groups of people, extends its immorality into the New Testament as well.

The concept of vicarious redemption is perhaps the most evil, insidious and immoral aspect of the myth surrounding this being, along with the equally distasteful concept of inherited sin.

How refreshing it is to note that we who live in the real world exhibit a moral character that is so much superior.

Stevevw

When god murders people and says he loved them... that doesn't mean he loved them.

When god murders people and says he loved them... that doesn't mean he loved them.

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Oh and the great Setup at The Garden of Eden.

"I'm going to put this tree here. And because I'm all knowing my basic understanding of foresight and probability tells me she's gonna take the fruit."

Seriously though Why was that tree in Eden? He could have put that tree in Heaven or Just not make it at all

Why did he make it delicious fruit?

Why did he make it so low and easy to grab? 100 Foot tall tree discourages me from getting fruit I'll tell ya that.

He made it such an easy thing to grab that fruit. He also makes a talking snake that has more common sense then the two perfect humans he just created BEFOREHAND. What? And the snake gets in Eden how? Seriously the Earth is only like what seven days old by now? He'd have to make the snake inside the Garden or it must have zero security.

He then BLAMES the humans because they ate the fruit. Knowing full well he created them without knowledge of really anything. He calls them evil and exiles them. He destroys humanity instead of saying "I knew this was gonna happen."

Analytics of the first like 5 chapters of the Bible will make you question right off the bat. This is all common sense to us but to people who read this they're like "yea the Eve is so evil for damning humanity like that" and I've heard so many people condemn poor Eve. She was ignorant, she didn't actually know better.

yeah there's no coming back from killing and torturing people. It's wrong. People are simply committed to believing the bible is good for the sake of their own security mechanisms.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Stevevw

When god murders people and says he loved them... that doesn't mean he loved them.

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When God loves people and judges them it also doesn't mean He murders them as you put it. But then I would imagine if some people want to label God a murderer than saying He is a liar is nothing and just another accusation along with the rest. The problem is why would the writers who believed God was a loving and forgiving God write down so called horrible evil acts about Him if they wanted to promote Him as good. That would be shooting themselves in the foot and contradicting what they are trying to say. So obviously they didn't see Gods actions as wrong and it was part of Gods just judgements on evil doers.

It seems hypocritical that people can support the actions of the allied forces and the coalition of the willing and UN in their actions to kill many in the name of justice in war and conflicts. But when God does it who is much more worthy to be the judge, its all wrong. It seems God is guilty before a trial and no matter what He does He is labelled bad in some peoples eyes. Damned if He does and damned if He doesn't so to speak.

GrimKingGrim said:

Oh and the great Setup at The Garden of Eden.

"I'm going to put this tree here. And because I'm all knowing my basic understanding of foresight and probability tells me she's gonna take the fruit."

Seriously though Why was that tree in Eden? He could have put that tree in Heaven or Just not make it at all

Why did he make it delicious fruit?

Why did he make it so low and easy to grab? 100 Foot tall tree discourages me from getting fruit I'll tell ya that.

He made it such an easy thing to grab that fruit. He also makes a talking snake that has more common sense then the two perfect humans he just created BEFOREHAND. What? And the snake gets in Eden how? Seriously the Earth is only like what seven days old by now? He'd have to make the snake inside the Garden or it must have zero security.

He then BLAMES the humans because they ate the fruit. Knowing full well he created them without knowledge of really anything. He calls them evil and exiles them. He destroys humanity instead of saying "I knew this was gonna happen."

Analytics of the first like 5 chapters of the Bible will make you question right off the bat. This is all common sense to us but to people who read this they're like "yea the Eve is so evil for damning humanity like that" and I've heard so many people condemn poor Eve. She was ignorant, she didn't actually know better.

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Why dont society make it harder for thieves. Why do they have to have all those goods sitting there in the shop windows so easy to grab. Why is it so easy to rip people off with financial scams on the internet. Why does he government and law make it harder for people. Because that is life. There has to be trust and there has to be rules. But then you seem to know all of Gods intentions and are putting limitations on Him.

Your the one who is judging God and setting the parameters like you know everything now. But you only have a limited knowledge of why things are the way they are. You dont know the greater picture of things. None of us do so how can we start to state things should be this way or that way. You are only basing things on a material world that is here for only the blink of an eye. God is eternal and all knowing. He is the creator of life so are you saying you know better. Who knows what the tree represented in the garden. Adam and Eve were representative of us all and anyone would have done the same. This is what had to happen to deal with evil in the scheme of existence.

The fact is if there is good then there is evil. Good means nothing without evil. Love means nothing without hate. So maybe things are the way they are because thats how it has to be for humans to be complete and not robots in some game. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean He can always interfere with things and take away our rights to be independent people who make their own decisions. Otherwise we may as well be puppets. He can also and probably has no choice but to stand back and allow things to take their course. If God setup things and stacked the deck in favor of any particular existence then maybe that would have taken something away from life and being human.

All I know is God is the creator and someone had to create. If He created then He knows us and life but He also has to be independent of that at the same time. But thats Gods nature and its hard for us to comprehend so we put our limitations on it to try and get our head around it.

Chrisitianity is for at least some of its followers much more than blind faith but a vital relationship with a living God which at times can involve manifestations of the supernatural. Naturalism, materialism and a denial of the supernatural underpin Western thought.


I would like to recommend 4 books. Acts Today, Signs and Wonders of the Holy Spirit by Ralph Harris provides many verified accounts of healings, Xenoglossolalia, divine provision and other supernatural occurrences. Azusa Street: They Told Me their Stories by Tommy Welchel includes many accounts of miracles and healings which ocurred at Azusa Street based on interviews with people who were actually there and directly involved. Also God's Generals by Roberts Liardon includes the biographies of Smith Wigglesworth, Maria Woodworth-Etter, John G. Lake, William Branham, Katheryn Kuhlman and several others. Only Believe by Don Stewart includes many accounts of supernatural occurrences in various Christian ministries. These books should be readily available on Amazon.com, Christian Book Distributors or the like at least in the US and Canada and hopefully elsewhere as well

Some reading this thread will immediatly dismiss these books as fabrication, illusion, misatribution of supernatural causes to natural events. However I invite you to read them. Any Christians following this thread may find them edifying.

stevevw said:

When God loves people and judges them it also doesn't mean He murders them as you put it. But then I would imagine if some people want to label God a murderer than saying He is a liar is nothing and just another accusation along with the rest. The problem is why would the writers who believed God was a loving and forgiving God write down so called horrible evil acts about Him if they wanted to promote Him as good. That would be shooting themselves in the foot and contradicting what they are trying to say. So obviously they didn't see Gods actions as wrong and it was part of Gods just judgements on evil doers.

It seems hypocritical that people can support the actions of the allied forces and the coalition of the willing and UN in their actions to kill many in the name of justice in war and conflicts. But when God does it who is much more worthy to be the judge, its all wrong. It seems God is guilty before a trial and no matter what He does He is labelled bad in some peoples eyes. Damned if He does and damned if He doesn't so to speak.

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uhm no... when you kill people outright and set people on fire you're a murderer. Sorry. You kill people only to defend yourself, not because they broke your rules or called you names.

and the UN has rules against acting like Jesus. It's called the Geneva Convention. Anyone who ever acted like god in the bible would be tried and killed for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Who cares how they saw his acts? They were stupid people who made these ideas up to make their selves feel better in a confusing scary world.

You ask the question of If god was a murderer then why would he write the rest of what he did? Simple... it's not true and it's not supposed to make sense. But when you kill and murder and burn and torture the way the bible god does... you're a murderer.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

uhm no... when you kill people outright and set people on fire you're a murderer. Sorry. You kill people only to defend yourself, not because they broke your rules or called you names.

and the UN has rules against acting like Jesus. It's called the Geneva Convention. Anyone who ever acted like god in the bible would be tried and killed for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Who cares how they saw his acts? They were stupid people who made these ideas up to make their selves feel better in a confusing scary world.

You ask the question of If god was a murderer then why would he write the rest of what he did? Simple... it's not true and it's not supposed to make sense. But when you kill and murder and burn and torture the way the bible god does... you're a murderer.

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Well said.

And "not making sense" appears to be something of a speciality for this particular deity. So much so, that many of his adherents, who claim on one hand to know exactly what this being expects of us, then admit that God "moves in mysterious ways" that we mere mortals are not supposed to understand.

And why? Because the brutal acts that this creature supposedly performs cannot be equated with one that is touted as being 'loving and caring.' They know that they have no rational means of squaring that particular circle. And so they offer an explanation which, in fact, explains nothing.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

uhm no... when you kill people outright and set people on fire you're a murderer. Sorry. You kill people only to defend yourself, not because they broke your rules or called you names.

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Thats where you havnt read the bible and understood the stories. The people were sacrificing their own children and they were sinning in all sorts of ways. They had caused many to sin and suffer and their sin was spreading to others and causing more harm. They attacked the Israelites on many occasions so the Israelites could claim they were defending themselves. Yet people still want to judge God with higher standards than the very same acts they do themselves. The allied forces didn't kill to defend themselves. They bombed Japan to stop Hitler. It was like a threat to Germany and Japan. If you keep on going we will drop another bomb. So it was a scare campaign. Then you have the coalition of the willing who retaliated against Iraqi as a revenge attack but justified it as in the name of justice. On both occasions they killed women and children and said this was an unfortunate casualty of war but it had to be done to deal with an evil man and nation.

and the UN has rules against acting like Jesus. It's called the Geneva Convention. Anyone who ever acted like god in the bible would be tried and killed for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

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The UN is responsible for some great harms to humanity. But they justify it as doing the right thing. The difference is God is more justified because He stands for truth. He has never killed an innocent and He has given ample warning to those who were judged. Humans get it wrong and they have killed innocents for no good reason. Look what happened in Vietnam. Yet people say that these organization who decide to bomb children are justified on the basis of doing the right thing and keeping the peace. But sneaking deals are done in back rooms and setups are done so that they can take actions that are unjustified so they can cover up their wrong doings.

You ask the question of If god was a murderer then why would he write the rest of what he did? Simple... it's not true and it's not supposed to make sense. But when you kill and murder and burn and torture the way the bible god does... you're a murderer.

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So if its not true why are you accusing God and the Israelites of being murderers. Even if it was made up why would the people who want to promote their God make up bad things about him to tell the world in the bible. It doesn't make sense. If you were going to make up something that was going to make your God look good and loving you would put all the stuff you say God has done. That would defeat their own agenda. They would have put all the nice things and made sure it all looked good and presented God in a good light. So why would they put such bad things about God even if it wasn't true.