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You may leave the title alone.Would you like me to change the title of the thread?
Do you understand the question being asked?Because that is also part of the OP, and that's what is being addressed.
And this is where you fail. This is a description of non-believers, not non-elect. All if us were non-believers at some point.Can the non-elect be saved?
Clearly, yes. In fact, Jesus made that perfectly clear. But, before we examine His words, we need to review Calvinism's view of who the non-elect are. For them, the non-elect:
1. weren't chosen by God to believe or have salvation
2. therefore, Christ didn't die for them
3. period.
OK, let's see what Jesus thought about that.
John 5:33-47
33 You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. 34 But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplishthe very works that I dotestify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. 38 You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 I have come in My Fathers name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?
First, we'll examine how Jesus described this crowd He was talking to:
1. v.38 "you do not believe"
2. v.40 "you refuse to come to Me and have life"
3. v.43 "you do not accept Me
According to Calvinism, this description fits their understanding of what the non-elect are.
You may leave the title alone.
Do you understand the question being asked?
Would you be able to address the OP, please? Explain WHY Jesus said "that you may be saved" to those who refuse to accept Him.No, not at all, Willie.
This might be foolish to you, but not to the Lord.
Allow me to tell you how evangelism works.
The elect are living in amongst the heathen, the non-elect, etc.
And the Lord needs the elect to have the gospel presented to them so they can respond.
Evangelists don't have time to "pray through" about every person they come in contact with
... to determine if they should give him the gospel.
IMO, this would increase the time of evangelism by a factor of 1,000 or 10,000!
Nice idea, but someone once said, "the workers are few".
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You proceed and posit an argument based upon an unsubstantiated presupposition. For you, one isn't elect until they believe. Therefore when one is an unbeliever, they are of the non-elect. Then once they believe, they are elect. You then take this framework and cast it upon us who are Reformed. The main reason why this is problematic for your argumentation is that we don't equate unsaved with non-elect. We, the elect, were all once unsaved; and yet, during our period of rebellion, our election was still as real as it is now. How else could it be, if we were elected before the foundation of the world to be adopted as sons? Therefore to posit that those Jesus was talking to in John 5 were unequivocally of the non-elect is presumptuous, at best.
I think the point is that Jesus says 'I say these things so that you may be saved' to unbelievers that might also be reprobates.
Sure. When you're preaching the gospel, you simply tell people that if they want to do such and such, they can.
Does Bob want to repent and be saved? If so, fantastic! Go right ahead Bob! Nobody is stopping you!
I'm not sure what you think the texts you quoted prove.
In a practical sense, there is no other way to preach the gospel. At present state, the audience was unbelievers. But Jesus kept on preaching the gospel to them. He was saying it to them because the message is the method of salvation. "I am saying these to you so that you might be saved". That's an evangelists job. To preach the message so that the hearers might be saved.
There's nothing inherently non-Calvinistic about that one way or the other. It doesn't prove anything, other than Jesus' obedience to preach the gospel the lost.
He simply preached the message, and lets the Holy Spirit do His work. He preaches the message, and anyone who wants to be saved by repenting and trusting in Him can do so. If they are unwilling, they are judged for their unwillingness.
Pretty basic stuff. I'm not sure what you think you have proven.
*For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son...And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.* - (Rom 8:29-30).So believers (who haven't made a freewill choice to believe because they don't exist) are elected to salvation before the foundation of the world. Okay.
First of all that doesn't make sense. But that isn't even the main point. If election takes place before the foundation of the world, then there is no possibility for the non-elect to be saved. Election is done. One is elect or non-elect based on whether God already elected them or not. That is the answer to your OP. NO. If you maintain that individuals are elected to salvation before the foundation of the world then your view is self defeating.
No, He spoke that way because anyone could accept Him. It's your faulty view of the non elect that is the problem and why you can't address the OP directly.Claiming "God is omniscient" doesn't actually explain away your inconsistency. It just masks it with an idea. Yes, we believe God knows all things innately. But He cannot innately know something that originates within us, otherwise it first originated in Him first (hence innate). If it is a free choice and a self-determined action completely free of God's purpose or intention without any outside determining factors or limitations, then necessarily, God cannot know it lest we choose it. Which is why it is nonsensical to propose it.
There is no Scriptural support for God choosing who will believe. It is a problem for Calvinism, but which they simply ignore.That's not a problem... it is the truth.
And I disregard your notion again that Jesus did not know who the non-elect are. He is omniscient, and He certainly knows all that he died for, even in your system. Your statement is false.You disregarded my explanation last time, so apparently you want to hear it again. There is good reason to believe that Jesus did not know who the non-elect are, just as we are unaware.
[QJOUTE] It is also possible that the full revelation of His purpose in death was not made known to Him yet, which is why He spoke to the sons of Israel as if they still might have accepted Him as their king.
I know exactly what it was. You are deflecting from addressing the OP.Jesus' plea to them is also not a reflection of the divine decree from all eternity, that it was possible for them to believe or not believe and have a unforeseen affect on the entirety of history. Instead, it was a simple statement of purpose: I say this to you so that you might be saved.
From what you've posted here, it seems that I was correct.Thanks for trying to accurately represent me. Really appreciate that.
Your comment is a deflection from the OP, but I'll address it in order to help you understand my view. The purpose of God in electing believers per Epoh 1:4 is that each one be holy and blameless.Your view doesn't make sense, because it takes away from any purpose God had in electing us before the foundation of the world.
Because Eph 1:4 SAYS that's when God chose.Why do it before the foundation of the world?
To instruct believers that we have been chosen to be holy and blameless. Is that such a weird thing to emphasize. Why did Paul tell the Ephesian believers to "no longer live as the Gentiles" per 4:17? Basically saying the same thing.Why even mention that if you are Paul?
Might "what" point to the fact that God's election occurred before time?Might it point to the fact that it happened before we were ever born, before we ever existed, before we could make any choices, before we could ever do right or wrong, etc.?
OK, I'll try to make it more clear. God chose those who would become believers.Again, God didn't choose "believers" i.e. people who already believe. By your own admission, we weren't believers when He chose us.... because we didn't exist yet. See here:
I think you're squibbling a bit. Of course no one had believed when He chose them. But being omniscient, He chose all who will believe to be holy and blameless.So then by your own admission, God doesn't elect believers, he elects those who will later believe. Meaning that at least for some portion of their life, they are elect although unbelievers.
Sorry, but none of this makes any sense. It seems to be saying that unless something originates from within Himself, He can't know it. But that just denies the real meaning of omniscience, which may explain why we keep talking over each other's heads.It's not a matter of difficult, it's a matter of possibility. There is nothing for Him to know if the choice hasn't been made yet in time. It has no ontological substance or existence for God to know it if it does not first originate within Him, which is partly the reason why we believe in the eternal Divine Decree. Otherwise nothing exists for Him to know.
You are forgetting that all who will believe were chosent to be holy and blameless. So when people are born or when they believe is totally immaterial and irrelevant.Whether they are believers or not, it does not matter. What matters is that you see election as taking place in eternity past. If it takes place in eternity past, then there can be no election after the fact. Therefore the non-elect can be nothing but the non-elect, since they are non-elect from the foundation of the world.
Yes, it does say that. You stopped the verse after "world", but the verse continues with to be holy and blameless. It seems the reformed never include that phrase, which is the purpose of election when they quote 1:4.Okay well the text doesn't say that, that is an interpolation. God chose us before the foundation of the world. What purpose does before the foundation of the world have if he is going to base it on what we do in the world? It destroys the whole meaning of the phrase.
So you think they were all just pre-believing elect? Then explain WHY Jesus used the subjunctive mood instead of the indicative mood, please.Again, how do you know they were non-elect?
Correct! So, can you demonstrate that Jesus' words were only for the "elect" in that crowd? And again, WHY did He use the subjunctive mood rather than the indicative mood, since we all know that the elect will certainly believe and be saved. No subjunctive about it.There is nothing telling us they were ALL non-elect, in fact to ask that very question is SO speculative that it just has no credibility whatsoever!
Seems the question does bother you, huh. If Calvinism had a good answer for the question, there should be no bother at all.It is a completely nonsensical question led by an assault on Calvinism at all costs.
No, actually I let the Calvinists disprove themselves, by the non answers they give. You've made clear you view my question as an "assault" on Calvinism, when in fact it is a very logical question, given your view of the non elect, and WHY Jesus said "so that you may be saved" in the subjunctive mood.It seems you don't care what the text actually says, you just care to disprove us at any and all costs no matter how far off point or out of context you actually are.
I think the point is that Jesus says 'I say these things so that you may be saved' to unbelievers that might also be reprobates.
Questions for you:
1. Does the election of certain individuals take place before the foundation of the world? yes or no.
2. Before the foundation of the world, had you or I believed in anything yet? yes or no.
The rest of your post was not relevant to the OP either, then. So I omitted it.
Sorry, but none of this makes any sense. It seems to be saying that unless something originates from within Himself, He can't know it.
God knows all things (and even counterfactuals) eternally.
Understood, but the objection is based on a presupposition that Jesus knew who the reprobates were, and further, that there were no elect people present to whom He was speaking.
Your post sure seems to side with how Calvinists view the so-called non elect. Do you believe they are unable to believe because they weren't chosen to believe (as Calvinists believe), or do you view them as simply unbelievers?
I see why the confused icon. I'm not trying to refute anything. The OP is clear enough. I'm looking for an explanation from Calvinists WHY Jesus said what He did to a crowd of unbelievers, you know, those that Calvinism views as not being chosen to believe, and be saved, and therefore those for whom Christ didn't die. i.e.: the non-elect are unsavable. So, please allow Calvinists to step forward and explain all that.
I don't think it's fair to be so insulting to those who have answered by deflection and hijacking. I'm sure they know exactly what the OP is about. Which explains why the deflecting questions, and hijacking attempts. They just don't have an answer.
Quite the contrary. For me, the elect are believers, the non elect are not believers. My challenge is for Calvinists to explain WHY Jesus said what He did to those who He wasn't going to die for, since that is their view of the non elect.
Nonsense. I have always acknowledged God's omniscience. O T is heresy.
So you are affirming that some people are reprobates, as part of your argument? What do you mean by reprobate?
?
The point of the OP is that we have God in flesh telling reprobates (as Calvinists would define the term) that they might be saved. It proves that Christ died for everyone, else He couldn't have said it.
Not that He can't know it... He can't foreknow it, let alone know it innately.
?
The point of the OP is that we have God in flesh telling reprobates (as Calvinists would define the term) that they might be saved. It proves that Christ died for everyone, else He couldn't have said it.
Agreed, but what is the point of that phrase?
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