Can Salvation be lost?

A_Thinker said:

Our righteousness is faith/belief ...

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Romans 4

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Galatians 3

6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

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Again, this is in reference to how we first get saved. This is not in reference to the secondary process of salvation known as Sanctification (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 5:10).

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, this is in reference to how we first get saved. This is not in reference to the secondary process of salvation known as Sanctification (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 5:10).

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Sanctification is (spiritual) growth, which, in essence, is a GROWING affinity for the LIFE which God has given us.

What baby is born ... who doesn't grow ... by the SAME LIFE PROCESSES that brought them into the world ?

Why do you think that the mechanism of LIFE changes … after we receive life ?

Why can WORKS not birth us ... yet, somehow, can sustain us after we are born ? How can you, as Paul says to the Galatians, ... "begin in the Spirit, ... and finish in the flesh ?"

Galatians 3

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Why would God allow/entreat us to be REBORN spiritually … if He wasn’t committed to sticking with us as we mature in His likeness ? What good FATHER brings children into existence … and then leaves it up to them to make it as best they can … through their own efforts ?

Did Abraham lose his righteousness (that came by FAITH) because he lied about Sarah being his wife … twice ? Or because he demonstrated a lack of even FAITH … when he went along with Sarah’s plan to conceive the “child of promise” … outside of God’s plan ?

I would note here that it is clear from this example that even our hiccups of FAITH do not detour God’s plans for us. He (God) went on ahead and brought the child of promise (Isaac) through Abraham (and Sarah) anyway … even though they had clearly made a mess of things. God even played cleanup for Hagar.

Why would God do this … if He was as strict concerning our performance as children ... as you seem to think ?

The relationship between God and men … has always been characterized by God cleaning up our messes after us …

Adam/Eve sin … and God provides skins to cover their nakedness.

Cain kills his brother Abel … and God provides Seth.

God mitigates the resolution of Sarah’s extramarital predicaments … brought on by Abraham’s lying.

God persists in working His plan through Jacob/Israel … despite many failings.

God brings Israel into the Promised Land … despite a massive failure of FAITH.

God grants Israel effective kingship … despite their ignorance of His warnings … and their disastrous choice of Saul.

God persists with David … despite his grievous sin with Bathsheba.

God persists in shepherding the Israelites … despite their dogged resistance to Him doing so.

God fashions a plan of salvation through faith (and NOT of works) … before man was ever brought into existence.

Why … would God do this … unless He was COMMITTED … to follow through with His “family” obligations ? Is God FAITHFUL ... to His commitments ?

Why does God … style His relationship with believers as that of a Father … to His children ?

Why does God … PERSIST … with His often errant children … in the way that a good FATHER persists even with ERRANT children ?

Do you really think that God would adopt children … only to cast them aside when they displease Him ?

And yes … God does urge His children to grow in RIGHTEOUSNESS … as any good Father would. And God chastises and chastens His children … when they need to be steered back to RIGHTEOUSNESS.

But good fathers … don’t cast their children aside … even when those children are displeasing to them. That comes with the territory of fatherhood. And God claims to be a better FATHER … than we could ever know.

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to
your children, how much more will your Father who is in
heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Matthew 7:11

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we
should be called children of God; and so we are.
1 John 3:1a

As far as the east is from the west, so far has
He removed our transgressions from us. As a father
has compassion on His children, so the Lord has
compassion on those who fear Him; for He knows
how we were formed, He remembers that we are dust.
Psalm 103:12-14

A_Thinker said:

You make salvation meritorious ...

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So it's not just me.

A_Thinker said:

Matthew 7 describes persons who claimed (to Jesus) that they did many wonderful WORKS ... in His name. So ... these thought (at best) that they were part of Jesus' kingdom ... because of their PERFORMANCE.

Jesus clarified their misunderstanding ... by explaining that He NEVER KNEW THEM. So ... it was not a matter of what they did ... but rather a matter of RELATIONSHIP to Jesus. That relationship is gifted by FAITH.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

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Amen and well said brother! In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still a teenager) I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, oh my goodness! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

*It wasn't until after my conversion that I understood what the problem was.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.

Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many 'alleged' wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.

Keep up the good work and God bless you brother!

A_Thinker said:

Sanctification is (spiritual) growth, which, in essence, is a GROWING affinity for the LIFE which God has given us.

What baby is born ... who doesn't grow ... by the SAME LIFE PROCESSES that brought them into the world ?

Why do you think that the mechanism of LIFE changes … after we receive life ?

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We agree that Sanctification involves growth but I doubt we agree that Sanctification is a necessary part of salvation as the Bible plainly teaches (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). For Belief Alone-ism can give a believer an excuse to sin under God’s grace (on some level) their whole lives instead of being conformed to the image of Christ. I also doubt the “OSAS Proponent’s” or the “Non-OSAS Sin and Still Be Saved Proponent’s” version of living holy is the same as the Bible describes it. For living holy is overcoming grievous sin (i.e. mortal sin) at some point in this life and not the next one. But if Belief Alone-ism is true: Then… one has a license to sin or one can make a future declaration that they must fall into sin in some way again on occasion (as a justification to sin) all while claiming they are on the road to holiness (When that merely is a mirage or an illlusion). This is why Belief Alone Proponents love to wave the banner flag of a wrong interpretation on 1 John 1:8.

Hebrews 12:14 says follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. For God says in His Word: “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:16). But most who are in the Belief Alone Salvation camp really do not believe 1 Peter 1:16 is possible in the practical living sense, and they merely refer to holiness as the imputed righteousness of Christ (because they have a belief on Jesus as the Savior even if they abide in sin on some level). However, Jude 1:4 warns us against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality. Justifying sin can be just a person thinking they can abide in just one sin (even though the Bible condemns this sin with warnings of hellfire or condemnation). Justifying sin can also be a believer declaring they must sin again at some point in the future because we all cannot help but to commit sin (i.e. mortal sin).

This is why “Belief Alone Proponents” in my experience don’t look at the whole counsel of God’s Word on the topic of salvation. They really do not seek to address those verses that destroys their sin and still be saved view of Soteriology. So they only select those verses that they prefer to see. So do not be like your average Belief Alone Proponent. Please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, or Romans 5:10.

You said:

Why can WORKS not birth us ... yet, somehow, can sustain us after we are born ? How can you, as Paul says to the Galatians, ... "begin in the Spirit, ... and finish in the flesh ?"

Galatians 3

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

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First, nowhere did I say that WORKS birth us. That is your false claim of something I never stated. I believe that when we are first saved or when we are INITALLY Saved… that is entirely based upon God’s grace without works. Being saved by God’s grace initially is the new birth. Initial Salvation is FATIH ALONE. For when we accept Jesus as our Savior, it is based upon His mercy and grace saving us in that moment when we first come to the Lord.

Second, nobody can save themselves by Works ALONE without God’s grace. That is what Paul was condemning. Paul is not talking about the works we must do in Jesus Christ (After we are saved by God’s grace). Paul is referring in context to those who thought they had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved. Proof?

At the Jerusalem council we learn that the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (i.e. the belief that said you had to first be saved by circumcision) was being condemned.

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
   
   
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
   
   
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Paul also condemned this heresy, as well.

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

Stop and think for a moment. If a person thought they had to be circumcised to be INITIALLY saved, then they would be making a work or the LAW (the Old Law) the entrance gate and foundation of their faith for salvation. So when Paul says, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Paul is condemning “Circumcision Salvationism” or in trying to be saved by Law ALONE Salvationism (Without God’s grace) as being the entrance gate and foundation of their salvation.

Just read the context (See again: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, and Galatians 6:15).

Circumcision was a part of the 613 Laws of Moses and we are not under the whole entirety of those Laws as a contract or package deal. When Christ died upon the cross, a New Covenant began and thus New Laws were implemented. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. Yes, some laws have carried over like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc. But we are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. We follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. Paul was condemning in going back to the false Jewish religion in that they wrongfully turned the Law into a system of works ALONE to be saved (with little to no grace). This is why Jesus condemned the Pharisee in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee because he was making salvation all about Works with no grace.

You said:

Why would God allow/entreat us to be REBORN spiritually … if He wasn’t committed to sticking with us as we mature in His likeness ? What good FATHER brings children into existence … and then leaves it up to them to make it as best they can … through their own efforts ?

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Again, you misunderstand in what I actually believe. I believe that the work we do is God doing the good work through us under our free will cooperation with God. It’s Synergistic. But the Lord deserves all the glory because it is ultimately His good work moving through us to do His will (Which is written in His Holy Word) so as to live a holy life and glorify Him.

As for the analogy of a father and son: Belief Alone Proponents take this analogy too far beyond what Scripture states. They think that once a son… always a son. This means one is a son… even if they abide in doing evil and sin. But God cannot agree with sin because He is holy and righteous. We see in the Parable of the Prodigal Son that when the prodigal son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, his father said he was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN” two times. The prodigal son did not die physically. So this means that the parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The prodigal son was dead spiritually when he was living it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father. So just being a son did not save him when he was living in sin with prostitutes. But of course Belief Alone-ism allows for a believer to live it up with prostitutes and still be saved (Which is a violation of basic morality and the goodness of God).

Oh, and James 5:19-20 teaches the same truth in that a believer can fall away and die spiritually because of sin and be restored back to the faith to the saving of their soul.

Still not convinced?

John 8:34 NIV says: “…everyone who sins is a slave to sin.”
John 8:34 KJB says: “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.”

John 8:35 says:
“And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.”

Okay. So families sometimes had servants in the Bible. The servants would not abide always in the family forever unlike a son would. So who is the servant (or slave) being described in John 8:35? It’s the same servant or slave in John 8:34. In other words, the believer who is a slave to his sin will not abide in the house of God forever. This is shown in Matthew 13:41-42.

For Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS kingdom all things that offend and those who do iniquity (those who do sin) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

To put it to you another way, I believe John 8:34-35, and Matthew 13:41-42 refutes your once a son always a son theology. For John 8:34-35, and Matthew 13:41-42 is saying that those believers who justify sin in some way are not going to make into the Kingdom and God will destroy them, or erased them from existence. This makes sense because God is good and He cannot agree with a person’s idea that they can sin and still be saved (Which is what Belief Alone-ism is really about - IMHO).

Bible Highlighter said:

We agree that Sanctification involves growth but I doubt we agree that Sanctification is a necessary part of salvation.

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I do agree ... it's just that I believe that it's God Who accomplishes Sanctification, ... as He does ALL of salvation.

I do not believe that God leaves it to us to raise/rear ourselves ...

Bible Highlighter said:

First, nowhere did I say that WORKS birth us.

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I didn't say that you did. Read it again ...

Bible Highlighter said:

At the Jerusalem council we learn that the heresy of Circumcision Salvationism (i.e. the belief that said you had to first be saved by circumcision) was being condemned.

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Circumcision was not the only concern of the Jerusalem council. The council, ultimately, sent out a letter to Gentile believers detailing only (3) requests ... that believers refrain from sexual immorality, that believers abstain from eating meats sacrificed to idols, ... and that believers not eat meat with the blood in it.

It wasn't just about circumcision ...

Bible Highlighter said:

This is why Jesus condemned the Pharisee in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee because he was making salvation all about Works with no grace.

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And He also COMMENDED the Tax Collector because he made his prayer ... ALL about grace.

Bible Highlighter said:

For in this passage it says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS kingdom all things that offend and those who do iniquity (those who do sin) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

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Tares ...

Bible Highlighter said:

As for the analogy of a father and son: Belief Alone Proponents take this analogy too far beyond what Scripture states. They think that once a son… always a son. This means one is a son… even if they abide in doing evil and sin.

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I'm going to speak to this because you mention it so often.

The imagery doesn't work ... if a son is not always a son. Because, per our human experience, to which God is drawing the analogy ... a son IS ALWAYS a son, no matter what he does ... or doesn't do.

There is no question that the Prodigal Son ... was always a son.

Now as to the father's words. He said that his son was dead, ... even though he (unknowingly) wasn't dead. It was just to the extent of the father's knowledge ... that his experience of his son was as if he were dead (i.e. no interaction).

Note also that the father is clearly experiencing his son's absence as a physical death ... not as a temporary departure from appropriate behaviour.

I would say that this passage is a bit more open to interpretation ... but it is a story (i.e. an illustration that Christ used) ... to actually demonstrate the fullness of God's love for His children ... in that ... they only need show up ... and they are forgiven ... and are restored to the full rights and privileges of sonship.

One thing I wanted to add to my previous post:

In my experience in discussing this topic with Belief Alone Proponents:

Well, I have discovered that Belief Alone Proponents try to back end holy living into the mix and say that a true believer will not practice sin (and point to 1 John 3) (Note: I believe the word “practice” is a corruption by Modern Translations). Anyways, Belief Alone Proponents will say a true believer will not try to sin and still be saved. But if such is the case, then they are merely trying to prove that holy living is a part of the salvation equation, though. The only way Belief Alone-ism for salvation works is if one believes they can live like the devil and no sin can separate them from God all because they have a belief alone on Jesus. That is the only way Belief Alone-ism can be consistent. But many who hold to Belief Alone-ism cannot see this.

Now, I have talked with Belief Alone Proponents who admitted to me that they can live like the devil and still be saved. For those kind of believers: I strive not to talk with them (if possible) and I seek to pray for them instead.

A_Thinker said:

I do agree ... it's just that I believe that it's God Who accomplishes Sanctification, ... as He does ALL of salvation.

I do not believe that God leaves it to us to raise/rear ourselves ...

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We are told to draw near to God and He will draw near to us (James 4:8).

Unless you and other believers you know are being forced beyond your own free will to live perfectly holy and to be perfectly in line with God, then we know God does not force Sanctification upon us.

We are told:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Yet, we know it is God who works in us (Philippians 2:13).

So it is Synergistic.

I mean do you believe the Bible when it says the following?


In your view: It makes it appear like you don’t have to fight the good fight in order to lay hold on eternal life.

In other words, to make a long story short: The above points I just made in Scripture should not exist in the Bible if things are as you say.

You said:

I didn't say that you did. Read it again ...

Circumcision was not the only concern of the Jerusalem council. The council, ultimately, sent out a letter to Gentile believers detailing only (3) requests ... that believers refrain from sexual immorality, that believers abstain from eating meats sacrificed to idols, ... and that believers not eat meat with the blood in it.

It wasn't just about circumcision ...

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I don’t think you understand what happened at the Jerusalem council. They were telling Gentile believers to not be circumcised to be saved and they were saying that the Gentiles believers did not have to keep the whole of the entirety of the Law of Moses. They were not saying to not keep the Laws given to them by Christ in the gospels or the laws given to them by Christ’s followers. In addition to exposing a false heresy of Circumcision Salvation by the Jews, the Jewish Christians were also trying to correct a misunderstanding on a former communication they had with the Gentile Christians in that they had in keeping certain Moral laws (like not eating things with blood, etc.).

You said:

And He also COMMENDED the Tax Collector because he made his prayer ... ALL about grace.

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There are no details about whether the Tax Collector was being initially saved or in the fact that he may have stumbled and needed grace. But we know this parable is not a defense for the sin and still be saved view that is popular in the churches today. For Jesus said to two other people to: “Sin no more” (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus could not encourage others to sin (with the thinking their saved) because that would mean Jesus would be implicated in their crime or evil. Yet, the Scriptures say He was without sin. So there goes the whole Belief Alone Soteriology right out the door.

You said:

Tares ...

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Tares look very much like wheat unless you look more carefully. But Jesus says they are IN THE KINGDOM and the angels gather them out to be burned. How are tares in the Kingdom? I honestly don’t know but that is what the Bible says. But most definitely these tares are only in the Kingdom very briefly or temporarily. They are definitely not saved in the end (obviously).

You said:

I'm going to speak to this because you mention it so often.

The imagery doesn't work ... if a son is not always a son. Because, per our human experience, to which God is drawing the analogy ... a son IS ALWAYS a son, no matter what he does ... or doesn't do.

There is no question that the Prodigal Son ... was always a son.

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The problem is that you ignore the reality of death. A dead son cannot partake in family picnics and gather for family reunions. Living members of the family are together and not dead ones.

You said:

Now as to the father's words. He said that his son was dead, ... even though he (unknowingly) wasn't dead. It was just to the extent of the father's knowledge ... that his experience of his son was as if he were dead (i.e. no interaction).

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Again, he says he is alive AGAIN. He says he was lost and now he is found. Generally when we talk about the lost, we are saying they are not saved. Also, James 5:19-20 says the same thing.

You said:

Note also that the father is clearly experiencing his son's absence as a physical death ... not as a temporary departure from appropriate behaviour.

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It’s obvious it is referring to spiritual death and spiritual life but you simply do not like that truth, and so you will naturally seek out some other odd ball interpretation that really does not fit the whole of God’s Word. As I said, James 5:19-20 teaches the same thing.

A further note on the tares in Matthew 13:41-42: Well, Jesus said you will know false prophets by their fruit. So the fruit determines if they are a tare or not. I see anyone as justifying sin as being classified as a tare. It does not matter if they claim to believe in Jesus or not. If one justifies sin, they are a tare and not wheat. Because it is their fruit (deeds) by how we know them.

Again, at the Judgment: Matthew 13:41-42 says that the Son of man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend and those who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).


In other words, a believer can be in HIS KINGDOM, and yet be cast out into the lake of fire at the judgment on account of their doing iniquity (i.e. justifying sin).

But how can tares be in Christ’s Kingdom?

Well, I was meditating on God’s Word a bit on how can tares be in HIS Kingdom (i.e. Christ’s kingdom) according to the words in Matthew 13:41-42.

So… the best answer I got so far is that of Lucifer. Was Lucifer instantly teleported out of the Kingdom of God the exact moment or second he sinned?

Also, I believe that believers who justified sin will not be able to enter the city of Jerusalem. They will be outside the city of Jerusalem. But outside the city of Jerusalem on the New Earth is still the kingdom of God. I believe the Judgment (i.e. the Judgment Hall) will take place on the New Earth in the kingdom of God. Sinning believers (tares) will be in the Kingdom at the Judgment Hall on the New Earth but they will not be able to enter the New Jerusalem city (Which has walls and a gate). They will be in the Kingdom (temporarily) but they will be cast out by Christ’s angels and thrown into the fire at the Judgment. That is how they can be IN Christ’s Kingdom and yet cast out.

Bible Highlighter said:

Unless you and other believers you know are being forced beyond your own free will to live perfectly holy and to be perfectly in line with God, then we know God does not force Sanctification upon us.

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Paul tells the Philippians that he is confident that GOD will finish the work He has started in them ...

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

He who begins the work ... finishes the work.

Not that we don't participate ... but it is the Father Who brings us to completion ...

A_Thinker said:

Paul tells the Philippians that he is confident that GOD will finish the work He has started in them ...

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

He who begins the work ... finishes the work.

Not that we don't participate ... but it is the Father Who brings us to completion ...

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This promise only applies for the believer who is striving to enter the narrow gate.

Bible Highlighter said:

This promise only applies for the believer who is striving to enter the narrow gate.

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All believers have entered the narrow gate ... which is Christ ...

John 10

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

A_Thinker said:

All believers have entered the narrow gate ... which is Christ ...

John 10

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

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Keep reading and you will find Jesus say,

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” (John 10:27).

Also, I was quoting Luke 13:24.

Luke 13:24-27 says,
[24] “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.”

Notice again the context.
Verse 27.
Jesus says for them to depart from Him because they are workers of iniquity. So not only do we need to receive Christ but we cannot be workers of iniquity, either.

Many seek to enter are not able, it is also told again ( confirmed) they are ever learning ( ever reading) and never able to enter..


2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Because the disputes settle nothing ( people seek debate and these disputes is also them participating in the end of the world predictions of faithlessness)...


1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

Bible Highlighter said:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” (John 10:27).

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Jesus' sheep do follow Him, ... even so, a good shepherd will, every now and then, have to leave the flock ... to find the one sheep which has wandered off ...

Luke 15

1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

And Jesus is a Good Shepherd ...

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Bible Highlighter said:

Luke 13

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.”

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Sounds quite like what he says to those works-based salvationists in Matthew 7 ...

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

As to God's will ...

John 6

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
...
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Remember you guys spoke about being as babies born ?


The newborn babes seek the sincere milk of the word ( they thirst after righteousness)

They have layed aside all malice and guile, hypocrisies and envies and all evil speaking ( the sincere word has none of that in it's Spirit)

The ones who believe will not be confounded, but when was talk ever an example of belief ?

Abraham is example of righteousness by faith, but do we not think the more current examples, of Christ and His Holy Apostles are more detailed ( ensamples) to follow ? If they are, then it is proven too easily, that all debates and strifes and endless reasonings are sign of non following of Christ ( not following correctly) or they would show the actual living examples ( all live unto God) that we can trust, of Christ doing all He did for the sheep ) as you guys mention sheep) to follow in reality in truth and without private interpretations..


1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

A_Thinker said:

Jesus' sheep do follow Him, ... even so, a good shepherd will, every now and then, have to leave the flock ... to find the one sheep which has wandered off ...

Luke 15

1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

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They were sheep going astray, now they are not, so the Shepherd cant leave the sheep again and cause them to go astray..


1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

A_Thinker said:

Sounds quite like what he says to those works-based salvationists in Matthew 11 ...

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

As to God's will ...

John 6

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
...
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

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Gods will is not quite as you are wanting it to be, this is Gods will...


Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

A_Thinker said:

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
...
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

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To believe.


To believe is told how and in what way, by not letting the devil take the words of faith ( that we hear) away from our hearts..


Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.




Then to believe and be baptized saves them..


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Part of that belief and baptism is believing in our heart unto righteousness ( that Christ righteously rose from the dead)..


Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.



We have to remember and not be a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work ( in faith).


1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Believe and be baptized, by the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ( we have the belief of a good conscience when we believe in our conscience/heart, that Christ has risen from the dead and is risen in us)


1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Then when you are alive from the dead ( with Christ alive from the dead in your hearts/minds belief sincerely) your body is an instrument of righteousness to God)..


Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.



Also not just confessing Christ, but a true confession i seen in our departing from iniquity..


2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

testifier_uk said:

The newborn babes seek the sincere milk of the word ( they thirst after righteousness)

They have layed aside all malice and guile, hypocrisies and envies and all evil speaking ( the sincere word has none of that in it's Spirit)

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This was Peter's teaching to believers.

If they had already done these things, or where already doing them, ... he wouldn't have to EXHORT them to do them ...

Peter says ... "desire the sincere milk of the Word ... "

I think that you would agree that the New Testament is FULL of exhortations to believers ... to live a life worthy of their calling ... "

For instance, Paul in Ephesians ...

Ephesians 4

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

testifier_uk said:

The ones who believe will not be confounded, but when was talk ever an example of belief ?

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The thief on the cross ... ???

Luke 23

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”