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But, I thought it was the Romans? [emoji4] I think you are confused.
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Isaiah 54:10 - 17)
"We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states; .. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." (Declaration of Independence. See also John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, MI, 1987, pp. 355-377)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Psalms 19:7 - 8)
American Founding Ideal:
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams, February 22, 1756 (Federer, William J., America's God and Country Encyclopedia Of Quotations , FAME Publishing, Coppell, Texas, 1994, p.5)
"These laws laid down by God are the eternal immutable laws of good and evil .... This law of nature dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity if contrary to this...
"The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the holy scriptures ... [and] are found upon comparison to be really part of the original law of nature. Upon these two foundations, the law of nature and the law of revelation, depend all human laws; that is to say, no human laws should be suffered to contradict these. William Blackstone (Federer, p.52)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Leviticus 25:10)(Jeremiah 34:17)(2 Chronicles 7:14)(John 8:32)
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams (Federer, p. 10)
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible" George Washington (Federer, p.660)
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion ... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." George Washington's Farewell Address
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 1:16-17) (Leviticus 19:15) (Acts 10:34) (Galatians 3:28)
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." Declaration of Independence
"No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States" U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec. 9, Paragraph 8)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Genesis 1:27 - 28)(Exodus 20:13-17)
".that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." (Declaration of Independence)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 16:18) (Deuteronomy 1:13 - 15)
".governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." (Declaration of Independence)
"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this Union a republican form of government" (U.S Constitution, Art. IV, Section 4)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Numbers 30:2)
"No state shall.pass any. law impairing the obligation of contracts." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 10, Paragraph 1)
Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 17:6)
"No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 1)
Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deut. 24: 6)
"but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted." (U.S Constitution, Art. III, Section 3, Paragraph 2)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Exodus 20:8-10)
"If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it." (U.S Constitution, Art. I, Section 7, Paragraph 2)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Luke 20:25)
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. (First Amendment, U.S. Constitution)
>Judeo-Christian Roots
(Deuteronomy 6:7)
"Let [the Constitution] be taught in schools, in seminaries, and in colleges, let it be written in primers, in spelling books and in almanacs, let it be preached from the pulpit, proclaimed in legislative halls, and enforced in courts of justice. And, in short, let it become the political religion of the nation." (Abraham Lincoln, "The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions", January 27, 1838)
Source:
https://www.nccs.net/2003-05-judeo-christian-roots-of-americas-founding-ideals-and-documents.php
I rest my case...again. But I assume that this in no way changes your opinion. I have provided numerous examples that prove you are wrong. So if you want to stick to your claim it would be foolish unless you can disprove everything that I quoted. Have fun with that. You have your homework cut out for yourself.[emoji4]
Wow, I am honestly speechless. I do not know what to say. You do realize that I just quoted the founding fathers (the ones who wrote the constitution) saying that the purpose of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and the entire United States of America in general, was to ensure that our "God Given" rights under Divine Natural Law is protected?This is very similar to your previous post.
Citing the declaration of independence is a waste of time. It does not serve any sort of legal basis for the United States.
Likewise, relaying on the personal opinions of some founding fathers is also irrelevant. I don't dispute that people like John Adams were true believing Christians, however the country he took part in founding was not based on his religious beliefs. Many founding fathers were also very critical of Christianity, for example Thomas Jefferson. The country was founded secular, meaning religiously neutral. Everyone was free to worship whatever they wanted, however they wanted, or they could not worship anything at all if they so choose. That fact alone is in direct conflict with a Jewish or Christian basis for law.
The only relevant points you brought up in this post are ones that deal with the constitution... and in none of those quotes do I find anything that can be tied back to Judaism, Christianity or any other religion.
Here is the paragraph from your source that you left out.
Ancient Israelite society allowed slavery; however, total domination of one human being by another (as the Israelites suffered under Egyptian rule) was not permitted.[16][17] Rather, slavery in antiquity among the Israelites was closer to what would later be called indentured servitude.[15] Slaves were seen as an essential part of a Hebrew household.[18] In fact, there were cases in which, from a slave's point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom.[19] It is impossible for scholars to quantify the number of slaves that were owned by Hebrews in ancient Israelite society, or what percentage of households owned slaves, but it is possible to analyze social, legal, and economic impacts of slavery.[20]
I honestly can see why you are an atheist. I really don't want to come across as insulting but either you are willfully in a state of stubborn denial or your reading comprehension is woefully lacking. Althouth the comprehension theory would explain your inability to understand simple scripture, I prefer to assume that stubborn denial as a result of pride. Just deny...deny...deny...until you believe your view is true. Heck as long as you believe you are always right everything is swell. [emoji4]
Wow, I am honestly speechless. I do not know what to say. You do realize that I just quoted the founding fathers (the ones who wrote the constitution) saying that the purpose of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and the entire United States of America in general, was to ensure that our "God Given" rights under Divine Natural Law is protected?
I honestly can see why you are an atheist. I really don't want to come across as insulting but either you are willfully in a state of stubborn denial or your reading comprehension is woefully lacking. Althouth the comprehension theory would explain your inability to understand simple scripture, I prefer to assume that stubborn denial as a result of pride. Just deny...deny...deny...until you believe your view is true. Heck as long as you believe you are always right everything is swell. [emoji4]
Why not quote the man who actually drafted the constitution, Thomas Jefferson? .
You do realize that Thomas Jefferson did no write the constitution...right? It was James Madison. You obviously are rather ignorant on American history and are not qualified to debate this topic.
Probably like his claim that the United states based their laws on the ancient Romans. Probably got that information about Thomas Jefferson writing the Constitution from WikipediaNo one here is a Constitutional scholar. A slip on one fact isn't enough to disqualify anyone.
eudaimonia,
Mark
You do realize that Thomas Jefferson did no write the constitution...right? It was James Madison. You obviously are rather ignorant on American history and are not qualified to debate this topic.
Probably like his claim that the United states based their laws on the ancient Romans. Probably got that information about Thomas Jefferson writing the Constitution from Wikipedia
From the wikipedia that you referenced:The only quotes you provided from the founding fathers was one from John Adams, and two from George Washington, one of which is not explicitly Christian.
Why not quote the man who actually drafted the constitution, Thomas Jefferson? He's on record as saying "Christianity is the most perverse system ever shone on man". He was also famous for taking a razor blade to the New Testament, cutting out virtually all references to the supernatural and the idea that Jesus was in any way divine, and left the remainder as essentially a philosophical work. He titled it "the life and morals of Jesus of Nazareth". The bible he cut up can still be viewed at the Smithsonian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
However, to go back to your example of John Adams. The man was undoubtedly a Christian, I don't dispute that. However, he was also responsible for the Treaty of Tripoli. He was president during the time it was enacted, he was the person who submitted it to the senate, and as president, he signed it into law once the treaty was unanimously ratified. Article 11 of the treaty states "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion".
Likewise, while Washington did speak positively of Christians during his public speeches, keep in mind he was also a politician. His private writings and diary portray him as a sort of a Christian/deist hybrid who only sporadically attended church. When speaking with Christian groups, he referenced God, when speaking with groups like the masonic lodge, he used the term "great architect of the universe". He also did not request a priest or minister at his deathbed either.
And to recap, many of the quotes you listed from the DOI or constitution aren't even backed up by the scripture you listed to support those points. I'm not even sure how you can use some of those as an argument.... Granted, I doubt you actually read all of those points. Yours was a simply copy/paste.
What evidence? You have not shown any evidence to support your claim that us laws are based on the ancient Roman Laws. My claim was based on Britannica.com.My points were backed with evidence.
You on the other hand were trying to argue that the Normans were Germans, and that Holy Roman Law served as the basis for English law, hundreds of years before there was a Holy Roman codified legal system.
Not that facts matter to you. It seems you feel entirely comfortable throwing out whatever you like, and ignoring any points raised against you.
OK...let's talk about the constitution and the man who drafted it. Undoubtedly, the constitution was written in a manner to remain secular in order to protect religious freedoms. James Madison was a huge supporter of the separation of church and state in order to protect the immigrants (Puritans, Catholics, Anabaptists, Quakers, Jews, ect...) from the persecution led them the the US in the first place.My apologies, it was a typo. I meant to say drafted the Declaration of Independence.
Either way, barring my minor slip which was ultimately irrelevant to the post, my points still stand. I can provide you with plenty of other quotes from founding fathers which explicitly spell out that the country was not founded on any religion if you would like.
Now are you going to address my post?
From the wikipedia that you referenced:
It is understood by some historians that Jefferson composed it for his own satisfaction, supporting the Christian faith as he saw it. Gaustad states, "The retired President did not produce his small book to shock or offend a somnolent world; he composed it for himself, for his devotion, for his assurance, for a more restful sleep at nights and a more confident greeting of the mornings." [24]
There is no record of this or its successor being for "the Use of the Indians," despite the stated intent of the 1804 version being that purpose. Although the government long supported Christian activity among Indians,[25][26] and in Notes on the State of Virginia Jefferson supported "a perpetual mission among the Indian tribes," at least in the interest of anthropology,[27] and as President sanctioned financial support for a priest and church for the Kaskaskia Indians,[28] Jefferson did not make these works public. Instead, he acknowledged the existence of The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth to only a few friends, saying that he read it before retiring at night, as he found this project intensely personal and private.[29]
Ainsworth Rand Spofford, Librarian of Congress (1864 –1894) stated: "His original idea was to have the life and teachings of the Saviour, told in similar excerpts, prepared for the Indians, thinking this simple form would suit them best. But, abandoning this, the formal execution of his plan took the shape above described, which was for his individual use. He used the four languages that he might have the texts in them side by side, convenient for comparison. In the book he pasted a map of the ancient world and the Holy Land, with which he studied the New Testament." [30]
Some speculate that the reference to "Indians" in the 1804 title may have been an allusion to Jefferson's Federalist opponents, as he likewise used this indirect tactic against them at least once before, that being in his second inaugural address. Or that he was providing himself a cover story in case this work became public.[31]
Also referring to the 1804 version, Jefferson wrote, "A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."[30]
Jefferson's claim to be a Christian was made in response to those who accused him of being otherwise, due to his unorthodox view of the Bible and conception of Christ. Recognizing his rather unusual views, Jefferson stated in a letter (1819) to Ezra Stiles Ely, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."[32]
What evidence? You have not shown any evidence to support your claim that us laws are based on the ancient Roman Laws. My claim was based on Britannica.com.
I never said the laws came from the Normans. I said the laws originated from "Germanic Northern Europe" as a result of the Norman Conquest. I do believe that the US Justice "system" and the US "system of government" (a republic) was emulated from the Roman Republic. However, the laws themselves did not come from the Romans. I provided numerous examples that prove that the purpose of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and the founding of the US in general was to protect our "God given" rights given to mankind through "Divine Natural Law".
OK...let's talk about the constitution and the man who drafted it. Undoubtedly, the constitution was written in a manner to remain secular in order to protect religious freedoms. James Madison was a huge supporter of the separation of church and state in order to protect the immigrants (Puritans, Catholics, Anabaptists, Quakers, Jews, ect...) from the persecution led them the the US in the first place.
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
"We hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth "that religion, or the duty which we owe our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The religion, then, of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man: and that it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate."
However, it was the religious belief in "Divine Natural Law" that motivated the existence of the US and the Constitution. Let's look at some quotes from James Madison, the man who drafted the constitution.
"Religion [is] the basis and Foundation of Government."
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
In 1788, Madison stated:
"The belief in God all powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities to be impressed with it."
So in short, you agree with my point.
Various founding fathers were religious, some were not. They had many different views. Recognizing the value of freedom of religion they adopted that into the constitution, and established a secular state.
The problem is, that's completely antithetical to the ancient Jewish legal system, which was essentially a theocracy govererned by god's laws. That's the exact type of thing the founding fathers sought to AVOID when writing the constitution.
The point was that although Jefferson's beliefs were not orthodox, he undoubtedly regarded himself as a Christian who adopted John Locke's principles of Divine Natural Law and applied it to the Declaration of Independence and the foundation of the United States of America.Yes, I know... I read the article. There's no point in copy/pasting something that I'm already aware of.
What's your point?
This was not your point. Your point was that American laws were based on ancient Roman Laws. I just provided numerous cases to prove that Divine natural law is at the heart of everything America stood for.
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