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Frogster You seem to have a problem with people asking for money. They do it in shops all the time. It seems that it is a prerequisite to paying bills
You imply because they take up a collection that their heart condition is wrong. Also, just because 2 Cor does not mean we go rebuking pastors and other ministers for taking up offerings.
The thing is, you don't know who is who. You can't see their heart.
You seem to take issue with many people. You would be much happier just turning it over to the Lord.
We can't know peoples' hearts but we can see their teaching. If someone's teaching does not align with Scripture then we shouldn't follow them regardless of whether they have a good heart or not.
If all we focus on is whether someone's heart is sound we end up in all sorts of silly places where being devout and sincere trumps being right. There are devout and sincere Hindus, Muslims, atheists, occultists etc. Should we regard all of these people in the same light as someone presented as a Christian leader who teaches contrary to Scripture?
If anything I would say the "Christian" leader who teaches contrary to Scripture is more dangerous than the Muslim leader who does the same.
Taking issue with bad teaching is not a bad thing. "Turning it over to the Lord" seems like a generic catch-all statement suggesting people should do nothing to counter bad teaching. If we see something that appears to run against Scripture why is it a bad thing to point it out?
I do, and I don't, understand why people say this.The thing is, you don't know who is who. You can't see their heart.
I do, and I don't, understand why people say this.
You can see people's hearts. Some you can, some you can't.
To me, this is actually used more than the "Touch not the anointed," thing. I personally hear, much more often, "You don't know that person's heart," etc and so forth. Though it may be true in context if a person has not been shown the heart of another, it's often implied that it is impossible to know or something. Which in my experience it isn't.
Not to put words in your mouth, but are you suggesting it's impossible to see someone's heart ?
Another scriptural example would be with Simon the SorcererYes, Paul judged motives in Galatia, and Corinth.
Another scriptural example would be with Simon the Sorcerer
I thought I would toss that out there, as it involved money as well.ahhh...good one, i forgot about that.
I thought I would toss that out there, as it involved money as well.
Yes you can by discernment of spirits. You can bear witness or be quickened in some capacity. In all of these cases you "receive" judgment (which is what I'm advocating).You can see people's hearts. Some you can, some you can't.
I also want to say that most American churches usually have a budget, and the pastor is salaried. When the offerings are taken, it is for the church, and there is an understanding among the leadership (elders, deacon board if their is one) that the pastor and other staff will be getting paid. If you work in the field, you get to partake.
Paul kind of let it be known that he had authority he was not using when he worked. He could have received money from the church collections to fund his preaching.
When they chose the first deacons (as we know them), it was so it would free up the apostles from the more menial tasks and they could focus on the Word and prayer. That's what we want our pastors to be doing too. You stand to benefit from that.
So we can't activate the "gift of suspicion" because a church takes up an offering (even mentioning the 2 Cor or Malachi scriptures to do it). Yes, I believe that would be out of context, but the collection is not and the purposes in the management of the church.
Yes, some no doubt abuse it, but (unless you know something specific), who are we to accuse? In love you give someone the benefit of the doubt.
For sure!We can't know peoples' hearts but we can see their teaching. If someone's teaching does not align with Scripture then we shouldn't follow them regardless of whether they have a good heart or not.
That's how I feel about a lot of Catholic teaching. I just flat don't agree with indulgences, praying to saints, veneration of saints, the whole "Mary mother of God" thing. Each person has to judge for themselves where God wants them to fellowship. It may be for a time in a place where you agree very little with doctrine. The Sandford's had to stay in their denomination (according to their guidance) even though the leadership approved of gay ministers! They were obedient.If all we focus on is whether someone's heart is sound we end up in all sorts of silly places where being devout and sincere trumps being right.
I guess it depends on what it is. If we only hung out with people we only agreed completely with, we'd be alone a lot.If anything I would say the "Christian" leader who teaches contrary to Scripture is more dangerous than the Muslim leader who does the same.
I think if it gets in the way with believing the best in people (in love) and being suspicious of people's motives a lot, it would be better to let it go completely!Taking issue with bad teaching is not a bad thing. "Turning it over to the Lord" seems like a generic catch-all statement suggesting people should do nothing to counter bad teaching.
We can do that here. It's how it's done that matters. Do it like you'd like your words to be judged. Realize that we know in part and our take isn't always correct.If we see something that appears to run against Scripture why is it a bad thing to point it out?
What they do for us IS work. In fact, they often do it 16 hours a day, and some without vacations. If people are set apart to the Word and prayer, then why is that a problem?Then why don't todays leaders work? as Paul told that to ELDERS, in acts 20. Are today'a leaders floating at sea, getting stoned, whipped, beat up all the time as Paul was, but still worked, as did barnabas?
What is their excuse for not working, and what about the burden issue, and what about the context of 2 cor 8-9, as they twist it to get money for themselves???...
What they do for us IS work. In fact, they often do it 16 hours a day, and some without vacations. If people are set apart to the Word and prayer, then why is that a problem?
I can see you're having trouble letting it go as you seem to judge all ministers who take offerings as someone taking it illegally. You'd be lot happier not being suspicious of the motives of these ministers. Let God sort them out.
What they do for us IS work. In fact, they often do it 16 hours a day, and some without vacations. If people are set apart to the Word and prayer, then why is that a problem?
I can see you're having trouble letting it go as you seem to judge all ministers who take offerings as someone taking it illegally. You'd be lot happier not being suspicious of the motives of these ministers. Let God sort them out.
For sure!
I have had differences of understanding with pastors before, and it's something you just have to pray about. Quite often what they object to is their perception of what you're saying and not what you're saying. (Very much like these threads.)
That's how I feel about a lot of Catholic teaching. I just flat don't agree with indulgences, praying to saints, veneration of saints, the whole "Mary mother of God" thing. Each person has to judge for themselves where God wants them to fellowship. It may be for a time in a place where you agree very little with doctrine. The Sandford's had to stay in their denomination (according to their guidance) even though the leadership approved of gay ministers! They were obedient.
I guess it depends on what it is. If we only hung out with people we only agreed completely with, we'd be alone a lot.
I said: You seem to take issue with many people. You would be much happier just turning it over to the Lord.
I think if it gets in the way with believing the best in people (in love) and being suspicious of people's motives a lot, it would be better to let it go completely!
We can do that here. It's how it's done that matters. Do it like you'd like your words to be judged. Realize that we know in part and our take isn't always correct.
We're supposed to put on the table how things agree or not with scripture and you can chime in with how things register in your spirit. Is it for the purpose of finding the things we approve of and judging associated fruits, or is a "so and so" is a doofus? Are we willing to be convinced otherwise? Is it a search?
Well, I would put discernment of spirits in a different category than seeing someone's heart. They have a link, but I get what you're saying about "receiving judgement".
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