Can I please get some replies?

[TSIBHOD]

I had a post in GT in which I asked for some Calvinist input, but I didn't get much. The thread is here. See the OP, post 9, and post 26 in that thread.

If you want to reply, please do so in the thread to which I linked--not here. I will not discuss it here, as that would probably be against the rules. I only mention the thread here because I think that most of the Calvinists on the board must have missed it. So hopefully, now you will notice it and you can reply there if you want.

Have a nice day, y'all!

 

[AndOne]

Suggest you post the question up in the "Ask a Calvinist" area of this forum. The one in GT is five pages long and looks beat to deat - I only read the first three or four posts on the thread before moving on...

 

[Jon_]

I glanced over this thread initially, but on second look, I think that the issue raised by your post has already been answered in our continuing exchanges in "The Logic of Salvation" and the "All" threads. Compatibilism is the answer to why God can allow Satan to do something that he wants done, but that it is still sinful for Satan and righteous for God. God's intentions are pure, Satan's intentions are impure. God judges the heart.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[TSIBHOD]

I glanced over this thread initially, but on second look, I think that the issue raised by your post has already been answered in our continuing exchanges in "The Logic of Salvation" and the "All" threads. Compatibilism is the answer to why God can allow Satan to do something that he wants done, but that it is still sinful for Satan and righteous for God. God's intentions are pure, Satan's intentions are impure. God judges the heart.

My question went a bit deeper as the thread went on. Can God want a person to be tested so that their faith can persevere through that testing? Sure. Can Satan want the same person tested? Yes, but he wants it so that the person will fall (see Job). Both want the same person to be tested, but God wants the person's faith to persevere, and Satan wants the person's faith to fail.

Would God ever want a person to have faith, and Satan not want that person to have faith? Sure. Would Satan ever want a person to have faith? I don't think so. But would God ever want a person not to have faith, and Satan agree with that? That's hard for me to imagine: that God and Satan could agree that they both want a person to never have faith.

 

[Jon_]

But would God ever want a person not to have faith, and Satan agree with that? That's hard for me to imagine: that God and Satan could agree that they both want a person to never have faith.

No, God does not desire that any man not have faith. He desires that all men be righteous and, by extension, come to Christ; however, man is incapable of doing this apart from the active work of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, God's intention for the reprobate is righteous: he intends to glorify himself through them.

(Rev. 16:9 NASB) Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.


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Moreover, Satan's intent through causing the elect to stumble is so that God would be cursed:

(Job 1:11 KJV) But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


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Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[TSIBHOD]

No, God does not desire that any man not have faith. He desires that all men be righteous and, by extension, come to Christ; however, man is incapable of doing this apart from the active work of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, when you say, "God does not desire that any man not have faith," I'm going to assume that you would also say, "God does desire that every man have faith." God can't be ambivalent about it, and since He doesn't desire that they don't have faith, He must desire that they do, right? However, since, as you said, man can't have faith without the Holy Spirit, why is it that God gives the Spirit to some and not to others when He wants the result of the Spirit in everyone?

 

[Jon_]

why is it that God gives the Spirit to some and not to others when He wants the result of the Spirit in everyone?

You're asking a question that only God can answer. I don't presume to speak for God.

This is the same unanswerable question that Arminians cannot answer, viz. "Why do some men accept Christ, but some do not?"

They're both questions without knowable answers.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Reformationist]

Okay, when you say, "God does not desire that any man not have faith," I'm going to assume that you would also say, "God does desire that every man have faith." God can't be ambivalent about it, and since He doesn't desire that they don't have faith, He must desire that they do, right? However, since, as you said, man can't have faith without the Holy Spirit, why is it that God gives the Spirit to some and not to others when He wants the result of the Spirit in everyone?

God is not confused on what He purposes for His creation, however, it is often difficult to understand God's purposes. In my opinion, it is incongruous to say that God desires that someone have faith but withhold from them the necessary element that will produce that faith. Either He desires that they have faith, and thus gives it, or He does not desire that they have faith, and thus withholds it. Faith is a grace of God and, therefore, not an obligation. God's withholding of the gift of faith does not shine unfavorably on Him because the focus is on the graciousness in the unmerited gift, not whether it is unrighteous to withhold the gift from someone who had no claim to it.

I'll look at your other thread but, in short, God and the devil cannot ever have the same purpose because God's primary purpose in all that He does is His glory. The devil never strives for such a goal. They may, however, desire the employment of the same means to their respective goals. Fortunately, though the devil seeks to discredit the Lord God by tempting His creation, he only ushers in the fullness of God's eternal purpose because God is glorified in the execution of His wrath upon the iniquity of man as well as the dispensation of His mercy upon those He has purposed to redeem.

God bless

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

God's primary purpose in all that He does is His glory.

I believe that if every challenge to Calvinism were started with this statement, it would become quite difficult to be refuted. When you realize that we are not first in God's affections, God is, you are forced to look at things in a new light. According to Piper:

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The chief end of God is to glorify God[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]and enjoy himself forever.[/font]​

This may seem sinful, and if you were to take out God from that statement to insert any other name, it would be. If God's chief end was to serve anybody's interests above His own, He would become an idolater and not be worthy of worship.

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/font]​

 

[AndOne]

Great Points - and I love the C.S. Lewis quote that Piper always refers to: "We are half-hearted creatures fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinate joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who goes on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased."

Piper has come out with some great stuff - too bad he is not a true Calvinist - but that is for another post I think....

 

[TSIBHOD]

I'll look at your other thread but, in short, God and the devil cannot ever have the same purpose because God's primary purpose in all that He does is His glory. The devil never strives for such a goal. They may, however, desire the employment of the same means to their respective goals. Fortunately, though the devil seeks to discredit the Lord God by tempting His creation, he only ushers in the fullness of God's eternal purpose because God is glorified in the execution of His wrath upon the iniquity of man as well as the dispensation of His mercy upon those He has purposed to redeem.

You're pretty much already addressing what I said in that thread, so no need to go there.

Here's the next question I would ask, then: if the sin and judgment of the reprobate is something that God wants so that He can be glorified by it, why does Satan want it, too? Does Satan not know that it will glorify God? Or do you think that Satan just always wants people to suffer, even if their suffering brings God glory?

 

[Reformationist]

You're pretty much already addressing what I said in that thread, so no need to go there.

Well, you're a smart guy so I'll take that as a compliment.

Here's the next question I would ask, then: if the sin and judgment of the reprobate is something that God wants so that He can be glorified by it, why does Satan want it, too?

Because satan is evil and his very nature demands that he seeks to usurp the authority of God's holy Law, even if he knows that he, also, is subject to that Law.[/quote]

Does Satan not know that it will glorify God?

I imagine that, on some level, he must know that God's eternal plan will come to fruition because he knows that God is the Almighty.

Or do you think that Satan just always wants people to suffer, even if their suffering brings God glory?

I couldn't honestly say that I know what satan's primary motive is, other than to try to lead the flock of the Lord astray.

God bless

 

[Jon_]

Okay, when you say, "God does not desire that any man not have faith," I'm going to assume that you would also say, "God does desire that every man have faith." God can't be ambivalent about it, and since He doesn't desire that they don't have faith, He must desire that they do, right? However, since, as you said, man can't have faith without the Holy Spirit, why is it that God gives the Spirit to some and not to others when He wants the result of the Spirit in everyone?

I think that this passage puts it most plainly: they are the words of our Savior.

(John 10:24-28) Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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Soli Deo Gloria

Jon