Can I do something that God doesn't know about?

[Nooj]

Can I do something that God can't have forseen?

 

[solarwave]

Nope. Sorry not much else to say lol.

 

[Nooj]

Can I do something that God decides not to forsee?

 

[NavyGuy7]

Can I do something that God decides not to forsee?

Nope. He knows everything, sorry. Nothing is secret... nothing is safe.... from his knowledge, that is. LOL. And I fail to see your point, but I hope it isn't one of those "God don't exist" trap threads. Carry on.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Nope. Therefore, free will must not exist! How clever!

 

[Nooj]

Wow, it seems I've disproven God and free-will in just two easy posts!

Seriously for one moment. My first question asked whether God could not forsee my actions, thereby asking if there was a limit to His power. My second question asked whether God could choose not to forsee my actions. If He didn't want to, could He just not be omniscient?

 

[NavyGuy7]

You haven't disproven anything, Noojy Woojy. Nice try though.
Free will hasn't been disproven.. God knows what you're going to choose, and whether for good or ill allows you to make teh choice anyway when the situation arises.
Hrm, and I can see where you or I might get ourselves confused on this... but KNOWING something and CONTROLLING IT COMPLETELY seem, to me, to be two different things.

 

[RyanLeeParis]

God knows everything; all you see around you is his creation and existence he made. There is not a leaf that falls that God does not know or already isn't aware of. If you got in a car crash tomorrow, God, in his timelessness, knew that was going to happen, probably as a lesson for your spirit to learn.

 

[Washington]

You haven't disproven anything, Noojy Woojy. Nice try though.
Free will hasn't been disproven..

Considering that the burden of proof rest on the affirmative assertion, in this case, "free will exists," and such proof is still to be seen, the reasonable presumption is that it does not exist. But this is an issue for another thread. Not this one.

 

[JonF]

Wow, it seems I've disproven God and free-will in just two easy posts!

Seriously for one moment. My first question asked whether God could not forsee my actions, thereby asking if there was a limit to His power. My second question asked whether God could choose not to forsee my actions. If He didn't want to, could He just not be omniscient?

or you've proved that the truth of the statement "the universe is consistent" is predicate of God

 

[TeddyKGB]

Hrm, and I can see where you or I might get ourselves confused on this... but KNOWING something and CONTROLLING IT COMPLETELY seem, to me, to be two different things.

For two different entities, perhaps. But God is both the Creator (controller) of all and the Knower of all.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Considering that the burden of proof rest on the affirmative assertion, in this case, "free will exists," and such proof is still to be seen, the reasonable presumption is that it does not exist. But this is an issue for another thread. Not this one.

The "reasonable presumption"? My reasonable presumption, based on free will does not exist, would tehn be to say we are all being controlled in our every action, thought, physical prowess/conditioning, and life in general. So then life is meaningless, and since we can't control ourselves, we can go out and murder because "we were going to do it anyway, we have no choice in the matter" type thing.
I kinda laugh when people try to argue free will, really I do.

 

[Rayndeon]

If libertarian free will exists, then I would be inclined to agree with Open Theists, who believe that God would *not* know our future free actions. (I'd be happy to reprise the basic argument for anyone that is interested)

But, since I'm a compatibilist, I think we can be free and yet God knows what we do.

 

[DailyBlessings]

I've never understood why one would say "Because I am label A, I have opinion A about such and such"; oughtn't it be the other way around, with temporal labels ever running to catch up with the exercise of a free and rational mind?

 

[ehehe]

I kinda laugh when people try to argue free will, really I do.

Yeah, and I kind of laugh at your pathetic leaps of logic.

My reasonable presumption, based on free will does not exist, would tehn be to say we are all being controlled

Fail for trying to invoke image of a marionette without realizing the impact of the marionette on the audience. You can't just remove yourself from the complex of cause and effect.

So then life is meaningless

As far as I'm concerned, if that's the conclusion you reach then that is the conclusion you deserve. And I hope you will read into that statement.

and since we can't control ourselves, we can go out and murder because "we were going to do it anyway, we have no choice in the matter" type thing

So let me get this straight. If you discovered that you had no "real choices", you would choose to go out and kill people. Whatever that means.

Suppose that you have no free will. You have never had free will. How many people have you killed? Zero? But I thought you didn't have free will?

Oh, right, you're trying to equate "there is no free will" with some system of ethics instead of letting it be the simple statement about our nature that it is supposed to be. You're trying to say "if I have no free will, then it is alright for me to kill people". Well, I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you are no different from anyone who has ever killed because their dog told them to. And if you do it, then you will be institutionalized in an attempt to correct your behaviour. You know, through cause and effect.

 

[RobTheMagnificent]

Wow, it seems I've disproven God and free-will in just two easy posts!

Seriously for one moment. My first question asked whether God could not forsee my actions, thereby asking if there was a limit to His power. My second question asked whether God could choose not to forsee my actions. If He didn't want to, could He just not be omniscient?

Perhaps you have misunderstood what "omniscience" really is.

Just because God knows your choices, doesn't mean you don't choose them.

I'm a non-believer btw, but this free will / omniscience debate is riddled with strawmans.

 

[Triad]

Can I do something that God can't have forseen?

That's impossible, considering God sees all time and is not restricted to time as we are. The only way He wouldn't forsee it is if you didn't do it.

Can I do something that God decides not to forsee?

Same answer. Why would God decide to not be omniscient? First of all, that would be contrary to His nature. Being a perfect being, there's no wavering involved.

If He didn't want to, could He just not be omniscient?

Why would God cease to be God? That makes no sense. Perfection always remains perfection.

Just because God knows your choices, doesn't mean you don't choose them.

Exactly. The confusion arises when people erroneously try to invoke the time scale into God's realm, where it doesn't apply.

People also say that because humans have mortal limitations placed on us, that we are not completely free. But I don't think that is a valid assessment of free will, which is instead to have choices available. It doesn't mean you can choose anything you want. Think of it, though... you could spend tomorrow in a trillion different ways, based on whatever whim you have when you wake up. Give it a try! Limited? Sure. But constrained? Hardly. If you make decisions, you have free will. If you truly didn't believe in free will, then you would just stay in bed and not do anything, because effort and energy would have no meaning to you. But, as the proof is in the pudding, very few people really believe that they aren't making choices, because they keep trying to effect their course in life – in daily actions and in long-term plans. A very small percentage give up trying and leave it to the cosmos to decide for them. Those are the only ones who can rightly say that they don't believe in free will.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Same answer. Why would God decide to not be omniscient? First of all, that would be contrary to His nature. Being a perfect being, there's no wavering involved.

How do you know what perfect being-ness entails?

Why would God cease to be God? That makes no sense. Perfection always remains perfection.

Except in the case of once-perfect Adam, of course.

People also say that because humans have mortal limitations placed on us, that we are not completely free. But I don't think that is a valid assessment of free will, which is instead to have choices available. It doesn't mean you can choose anything you want. Think of it, though... you could spend tomorrow in a trillion different ways, based on whatever whim you have when you wake up. Give it a try! Limited? Sure. But constrained? Hardly. If you make decisions, you have free will.

If I make decisions, I have a will. Whether or not it is "free" depends upon definition, and what definition applies depends upon... well, who knows.

If you truly didn't believe in free will, then you would just stay in bed and not do anything, because effort and energy would have no meaning to you.

Belief in free will or no, I act the only way I know how: Respond to past events using reason (and, as little as possible, emotion); prepare for future events using reason. It is unclear what extra "meaning" free will is supposed to make these actions have.

But, as the proof is in the pudding, very few people really believe that they aren't making choices, because they keep trying to effect their course in life – in daily actions and in long-term plans. A very small percentage give up trying and leave it to the cosmos to decide for them. Those are the only ones who can rightly say that they don't believe in free will.

You are conflating free will and "making choices." It is brutely factual that we make choices. Whether we have "free will" to do so depends on many things, namely whether "free will" means anything at all.

 

[quatona]

Seriously for one moment. My first question asked whether God could not forsee my actions, thereby asking if there was a limit to His power. My second question asked whether God could choose not to forsee my actions. If He didn't want to, could He just not be omniscient?

God can choose to not forsee something but to be omniscient nonetheless. God is not bound by logic. So there.

 

[Triad]

How do you know what perfect being-ness entails?

You're right, I don't. But the Bible does allude to the nature of God in many respects, including along these lines...

Malachi 3:6
I am the Lord, I change not.

2 Timothy 2:13
He abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

James 1:17
Father of lights, with whom is no variableness.

Matthew 5:48
Your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Some Book of Mormon and D&C verses elucidate on the subject...

Mormon 9:19
And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

Moroni 8:18
For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

Doctrine & Covenants 20:17
By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;

Except in the case of once-perfect Adam, of course.

I'd call Adam innocent, but not perfect. Perfection must be sustained, not merely having a clean slate for a short duration. Adam was only perfect for a blip in time, but he hadn't reached a perfected state. Thus, temporary perfection isn't really perfection at all.

You are conflating free will and "making choices." It is brutely factual that we make choices. Whether we have "free will" to do so depends on many things, namely whether "free will" means anything at all.

Help me out here, Teddy... If we didn't have free will, how would we have any options to make choices? In other words, how is it possible to have available choices without having any free will to make those choices?

Let's look at it this way: I have two boxes placed in front of me. My options are the black one or the grey one. Is there a realistic scenario where I could choose one of them while not having free will? How could it be a choice unless I was free to select one or the other? Please outline this for me.