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You seem to have misunderstood what I am saying. My point was that the practice you are describing is not at all exclusive to Orthodox Christianity. There are many people who have had very similar experiences to what you are describing here, but for whom those experiences lack theological significance. I'm not talking about "spirituality" in any supernatural sense.Orthodox spirituality differs distinctly from the "spiritualities" of other confessions, so much the more does it differ from the "spirituality" of eastern religions, which do not believe in the Theanthropic nature of Christ and the Holy Spirit. They are influenced by the philosophical dialectic, which has been surpassed by the Revelation of God. These traditions are unaware of the notion of personhood and thus the hypostatic principle. And love, as a fundamental teaching, is totally absent. One may find, of course, in these eastern religions an effort on the part of their followers to divest themselves of images and rational thoughts, but this is in fact a movement towards nothingness, to non-existence. There is no path leading their "disciples" to theosis-divinisation (see the note below) of the whole man.
This is why a vast and chaotic gap exists between Orthodox spirituality and the eastern religions, in spite of certain external similarities in terminology. For example, eastern religions may employ terms like ecstasy, dispassion, illumination, noetic energy, etc. but they are impregnated with a content different from corresponding terms in Orthodox spirituality.
Again, you can't know this if you don't experience it, you can say it is the same and all religions are alike, but if you don't experience it it would be only bald words.
There is a conflict here: on the one hand, you claim to lack comprehension of the divine, but on the other, you make various claims about the divine which would suggest that you do comprehend it. Specifically, you echo the major claims of Orthodox Christianity. So which is it? Are you ignorant about the divine, in which your claims about it are meaningless, or do you possess knowledge of the divine, in which case you are not ignorant and should be able to impart that knowledge in some way.Because saying that God does not exist is not anymore apophatic theology, but is already asserting God a positive attribute which limits Him. Anyone who limits God is spiritualy dead.
The necessity of genuine contemplation and purification can be best highlighted by contrasting the true apophatic theology of Orthodoxy with the philosophy of rational negations which has been sometimes practiced within Catholicism and Protestantism. These two approaches often lead to writings which bear certain surface similarities,
so it is important to ferret out the core distinction.
When using the philosophy of rational negations, the philosopher relates some property or attribute with which he is acquainted, and then he simply negates it in reference to God. For example, I have a personal experience of what it means to be limited and finite, so I can simply negate that term and say that God is “infinite”. By saying this, I have added no information to the concept of what it means to be “finite”. Rather, I simply plead ignorance, and recognize that God exists in a plane which I can neither comprehend nor describe. Everything I know is finite. Yet God lives beyond the realm of everything I know and understand. Thus I simply negate everything I know, and call God “infinite”. This is the approach of rational negations, and it is helpful as far as it goes.
In the case of the quote you presented, it appeared to suggest, ironically, that "real" is "what God is not." Hence why I found it amusing. In a similar vein, here is another one: "God is so great that the greatness precludes existence." - Raimon Panikkar. Think about that for a moment.Apophatic theology bears a surface similarity to the philosophy of rational negations, because both approaches result in verbal declarations of “what God is not”.
What about those whose theology begins with a personal experience of a different god?Both approaches plead the ignorance of the human being, and confess God to be transcendent. The key distinction between the two approaches is that rational negations start from the basis of speculative philosophy alone, whereas true apophatic theology begins with a personal experience of the Triune God.
Before we continue, you do understand that atheists are capable of having such ecstatic experiences? It's not limited to theologians. I have had ecstatic experiences, particularly while contemplating the vastness and majesty of the cosmos.Genuine apophasis is initiated by God, when He grants the theologian a direct experience of His energies. The theologian is swallowed up and dumbfounded by the ecstasy of the experience, and recognizes that nothing in all of creation is truly worthy to be compared to this mystery. Lacking any references which are fitting for positive comparison, the theologian grasps for terminology which at least points in the direction of what he has just experienced. “It is not this . . . it is not that . . . it is better than this . . . it is far superior to that …” In no case can the theologian ever find human words able to convey the experience to those who have never likewise experienced it. He can only ultimately tell his readers that union with God is like nothing they have ever experienced. At the end of the day, the semantics of the theologian are filled with many negations. But this is only a surface similarity to the philosophy of rational negations.
I'm sorry, but I have to call this out: you sound ridiculously pompous in this post. Get "culturalised."Your heretical protestant teachings won't let you see the light and the truth of the old Orthodox Church, it's not your fault, you don't want to learn the truth neither to study, so you being unchecked by the wisdom of the true church you are unaware of those things.
I tell you again, learn, study and get culturalized, because your ignorance is very big on this subject and I am not saying this to insult you, the fact that you are calling the practices of the Orthodox Church a lie made by false prophets is the biggest lack of culture and maybe one of the biggest insults I have ever seen, ignorance is the reason you do it, calling the One, True, Church something like that is one of the biggest sins in the eyes of God, to insult His Church and His saints.
I pray for you to find the truth and to get culturalized, you can show me thousands of passages of the Scripture because you are just showing that you have no idea of their meaning and you don't know at all to interpret them.
Isn't that a valid word? When I talk to someone I expect they to know what they are talking about, talking from prejudiced ideas and misconceptions are just a lack of empathy, of culture and an ignorance show-off, and still this isn't for insult anyone. But saying that hesychasm, christian ascetism and apophatic theology are just things made up by false prophets like the user above shows a very big lack of culture, and not only, a delusional reality, don't you think? It's just a lie what that user said and that's why I ask him to get culturalized.I'm sorry, but I have to call this out: you sound ridiculously pompous in this post. Get "culturalised."
You don't seem to be listening: I have had ecstatic experiences without religion, without theology, and without supernaturalism. That isn't "nothingness" or "fake."The problem you have is lacking an objective. We are all born with that heart feeling, heart dreaming about something, with that desire for divinity, even if you don't admit it. The problem relies on what do we put that desire, we put it to adore the One, True, God or we put it to go for nothingness like eastern religions, or in atheism like you and several others. Experience is everything, if you don't experience what you are saying, it's only emtpy words.
Which different God? Have you experienced any different God? Those things I said above do not match any fake god but the living God, those persons who claim to have experienced different gods, are they sinless? Did they cleanse of all sins? It's very easy to fall into pride and into fake experiences when you are not cleansed, but through ascetism you become cleansed of this world, of the desires of the flesh, of your desires, and that's when the true experience of God occurs, away from any characteristic or definition. I told you, cleanse yourself through ascetism and have Christ in your heart through hesychasm and you will experience.
Such experiences? I think you may not understand what experiences I am talking about, what do you mean?You seem to have misunderstood what I am saying. My point was that the practice you are describing is not at all exclusive to Orthodox Christianity. There are many people who have had very similar experiences to what you are describing here, but for whom those experiences lack theological significance. I'm not talking about "spirituality" in any supernatural sense.
Again, you are misinterpreting my words giving your personal meanings and connotations to my words: ecstatic or experiences.You don't seem to be listening: I have had ecstatic experiences without religion, without theology, and without supernaturalism. That isn't "nothingness" or "fake."
No, I'm informing you that the things you are describing are not exclusive to your religion and can be obtained without religion. You are dismissing this point in every way that you can so as to pretend that Orthodox Christianity is the only pathway toward these ecstatic experiences.Again, you are misinterpreting my words giving your personal meanings and connotations to my words: ecstatic or experiences.
And I am telling you, you don't understant my words. You think I am talking about extasis, about weird paranormal things or about some kinds of kundalini movements in the eastern religions, but not at all.No, I'm informing you that the things you are describing are not exclusive to your religion and can be obtained without religion. You are dismissing this point in every way that you can so as to pretend that Orthodox Christianity is the only pathway toward these ecstatic experiences.
No, I don't think that. That's not at all what I'm talking about. I never once mentioned eastern religions.And I am telling you, you don't understant my words. You think I am talking about extasis, about weird paranormal things or about some kinds of kundalini movements in the eastern religions, but not at all.
What you are describing is very similar in some respects to experiences that others have had outside of your religion. You appear to be unwilling to accept that.What I am describing is only of Orthodoxy and can only be attained through it, through an orthodox and pure faith in Christ.
No, it's not possible for God to do something that by definition is impossible.
Wait a second there. Intellect and reason are helpful ways for reaching God and so are hesychasm, ascesis and apophatism, but they are not the way. The only way to God is believing in Jesus. This is the single most important concept for anyone to grasp, who is questioning God. You must accept Jesus who died on the cross for your sins, you must accept him as your Lord and Savior with all your heart, soul and mind. God will lead you to this moment in your life and give you faith to persevere through it and beyond by the power of Jesus Christ, not by anything you have done yourself.
Not at all. It is just what you think I'm describing that seems for you to be similar with other things, whatever you call them. So let me explain what I'm describing.No, I don't think that. That's not at all what I'm talking about. I never once mentioned eastern religions.
What you are describing is very similar in some respects to experiences that others have had outside of your religion. You appear to be unwilling to accept that.
The problem you have is lacking an objective. We are all born with that heart feeling, heart dreaming about something, with that desire for divinity, even if you don't admit it.
You're still not listening: non-Christians have also had experiences of "indescribable joy" and illumination through contemplation. This is NOT something unique to your religion. You're not special in this respect.Not at all. It is just what you think I'm describing that seems for you to be similar with other things, whatever you call them. So let me explain what I'm describing.
Let's start with a verse from the New Testament: Matthey 17: 1 Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James, and John the brother of James up on a high mountain. They were all alone there. 2 While they watched, Jesus was changed. His face became bright like the sun. And his clothes became white as light. 3 Then two men were there, talking with him. The men were Moses and Elijah.
This is the Transfiguration of Jesus, and this is the center of Orthodox spirituality.
By cleansing of any sins following God's commandments, by confession and by living in purity and complete abstinence (ascetism) and through intense prayer and through intensively repeating the Jesus Prayer (hesychasm) you make a living bond, a living communion with God in your heart, that allows you to behold the eternal and divine light of God, because you will become pure enough to do it (and as Jesus says, only the pure in heart will see God) the same way it happened on the Tabor Mountain on that verse, this is called theoria, or the beholding of God's grace.
Now, let me tell you what one of our greatest saints, St. Symeon the New Theologian said about this, Symeon repeatedly describes the experience of divine light in his writings, as both an inward and outward mystical experience. These experiences began in his youth, and continued all during his life. They came to him during inward prayer and contemplation, and were associated with a feeling of indescribable joy, as well as the intellectual understanding that the light was a vision of God. In his writings, he spoke directly to God about the experience variously as "the pure Light of your face" and "You deigned to reveal Your face to me like a formless sun." He also described the light as the grace of God, and taught that its experience was associated with a mind that was completely still and had transcended itself. At times he described the light speaking to him with kindness, and explaining who it was.
You want me to prove it? You want me to prove that every person is born with a desire for divinity and for God? I do not have to prove it, you can prove it to yourself if you want. Just look at every single culture, every single civilization, every single tribe that have existed in this world and you will see that every single one of them, everyone has believed in God/gods/entities, so belief in the supernatural is in the human heart from the very beginning. You put a man since a baby in the amazon jungle and by his maturity he would have hundreds of gods to believe in. The feeling is there, the universal approach towards divinity, towards the spiritual realm is there and existent.Prove it.
I understand what you are saying. I understand that you are saying that every religion on the earth have some of this practices, experiences and supernatural stuff, but I am saying that nothing is on this earth like Orthodox spirituality, you can't know this because you haven't studied about it, you know zero patristic theology, zero philokalic theology, zero dogmatic theology and zero apophatic theology so you don't talk from experience or from theologic happenings, you talk from what you think you know, but sincerely, you really know nothing about us.You're still not listening: non-Christians have also had experiences of "indescribable joy" and illumination through contemplation. This is NOT something unique to your religion. You're not special in this respect.
No, you clearly do not understand what I am saying. Earlier, you thought that I was talking about eastern religions, even though I made absolutely no mention of them. I don't need to understand orthodox theological musings to recognise the broad similarities between the experiences you are describing here and the experiences that many non-Christians, including atheists, also describe.I understand what you are saying. I understand that you are saying that every religion on the earth have some of this practices, experiences and supernatural stuff, but I am saying that nothing is on this earth like Orthodox spirituality, you can't know this because you haven't studied about it, you know zero patristic theology, zero philokalic theology, zero dogmatic theology and zero apophatic theology so you don't talk from experience or from theologic happenings, you talk from what you think you know, but sincerely, you really know nothing about us.
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