Can God create a rock big enough...

[blixation]

One of the questions widely use is If God is all-powerful, can He create a rock so big that He can't lift it?

Obviously, the answer is no. God can't create a rock so big that he can't carry. Just like God can't sin, God can't stop being good, God can't be evil! God cannot be unjust!

To futher this thread some things in life need to be unchanging if we are to understand the legitimacy of things that ought to change and things that ought not to change. Some things in life must remain unchanging and it is an unchanging point of reference that is defined as an absolute, nothing can be added to it and nothing can be detracted from it. In that sense God alone is the only absoulte, unchanging being. There was never a moment in time where God did not exsist! God by definition is a nessecary being.

Once again, It is not possible for God not to exsist!

His very exsistence, His very name God symbolizes that which is an absolute and that which we can measure all other changes!

 

[Meatros]

One of the questions widely use is If God is all-powerful, can He create a rock so big that He can't lift it?

Obviously, the answer is no. God can't create a rock so big that he can't carry. Just like God can't sin, God can't stop being good, God can't be evil! God cannot be unjust!

Why is that the obvious answer? I think the obvious answer is that God can't do these things because an omnipotent being isn't logically possible. In order to be omnipotent God would have to be able to do those things.

To futher this thread some things in life need to be unchanging if we are to understand the legitimacy of things that ought to change and things that ought not to change. Some things in life must remain unchanging and it is an unchanging point of reference that is defined as an absolute, nothing can be added to it and nothing can be detracted from it. In that sense God alone is the only absoulte, unchanging being. There was never a moment in time where God did not exsist! God by definition is a nessecary being.

If God can not change then God doesn't have freewill, now does he? We (supposedly) have freewill-does this make us more powerful then God? In any event, all of this begs quite a few questions.

Once again, It is not possible for God not to exsist!

His very exsistence, His very name God symbolizes that which is an absolute and that which we can measure all other changes!

Why is it not possible for God not to exist?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

God can't be evil!

Then He certainly didn't destroy all life on earth with a worldwide flood in a fit of pique because He bungled his creation and it didn't turn out the way He planned as YECs believe and He certainly didn't order all those atrocities commited by the ancient Hebrews as Biblical Literalists believe. BTW I think this belongs more in appologetics than in the science forum.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Meatros]

Then He certainly didn't destroy all life on earth with a worldwide flood in a fit of pique because He bungled his creation and it didn't turn out the way He planned as YECs believe and He certainly didn't order all those atrocities commited by the ancient Hebrews as Biblical Literalists believe. BTW I think this belongs more in appologetics than in the science forum.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

God is evil, he admitted it himself when he wrote the bible (I'm betting it was a slip of the pen).

2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1

They describe the same events...but wait...look who they are attributed to!!

 

[Freodin]

There was never a moment in time where God did not exsist!

Funny - there was never a moment in time where the universe did not exist either. Now what does that tell us?

 

[blixation]

Then He certainly didn't destroy all life on earth with a worldwide flood in a fit of pique because He bungled his creation and it didn't turn out the way He planned as YECs believe and He certainly didn't order all those atrocities commited by the ancient Hebrews as Biblical Literalists believe. BTW I think this belongs more in appologetics than in the science forum.

Do you even know why God destroyed humanity with the flood or are statments made without knowledge?

Here's you answer, Genesis 6:11-13 "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

True and righteous are His judgments!!

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Meatros - Interesting development in theology pre- and post-exile, isn't it?
Hmmm - omnipotence. Doesn't mean God can do anything. It means He has as much power as is needed to do anything - so there is, for example, no speck of dust too small for God to see.

But some things are not impossible because of a lack of power. but because they are logically meaningless, like square circles. God cannot draw a square circle.

Nor can God make a rock so big He can't lift it. Such a rock cannot exist, because, logically, God can lift all possible rocks.

The problem is not that an omnipotent being cannot exist; the problem is with a definition of omnipotent that includes the ability to do the logically meangingless.

 

[blixation]

Funny - there was never a moment in time where the universe did not exist either. Now what does that tell us?

Silly little man with a feather in your hat. Have you any proof to this. Where were you when the foundations of the earth was laid?

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Silly little man with a feather in your hat. Have you any proof to this. Where were you when the foundations of the earth was laid?

Cut the insulting tone, Blix. I'm fed up enough with the arrogant attitude of a lot of you YECs as it is.

 

[Gormless]

Where were you when the foundations of the earth was laid?

I was down the pub probably, as I don't like doing manual labour.

G.

 

[blixation]

Cut the insulting tone, Blix. I'm fed up enough with the arrogant attitude of a lot of you YECs as it is.

Cut the insulting tone? I think you are fed up with the truth of the scriptures you give no credence to. You can't bear to think that one day you will have to give an answer to everything you've done wrong against God. To every Holy Law broken. lies, thefts, anger, ...ect.

"I the Lord search the heart, I test the mind; and I will give every man according to his ways and according to the things he has done." Jeremiah 17:10

 

[Freodin]

Silly little man with a feather in your hat. Have you any proof to this. Where were you when the foundations of the earth was laid?

Yes, I have. In fact, I have two. One scientific and one theological.

The scientific: I´m to lazy to write it all out - but observation shows that time itself started with the Big Bang. There was no "before".

The theological: God is timeless, so there was no time before he created it. But time is only a measuring of change withing existence - so it cannot exists without the universe. Time can only have been created together with the universe.

So says the silly little man with a feather in his hat.

As for being there: sorry, I would have to refer you to my friend Walter here.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Do you even know why God destroyed humanity with the flood or are statments made without knowledge?

Here's you answer, Genesis 6:11-13 "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

True and righteous are His judgments!!

So like I said He botched His creation and had to destroy it. I guess He wasn't omnipotent enough to just fix it without killing off all the innocent babies and unborn childern and animals or maybe he just liked to drown things in those days or maybe the worldwide flood is just an origins myth of a ancient people and had nothing to do with what God actually did. You can worship this viscious murderer God of the ancient Hebrews if you want but I have other ideas about the nature of God.

The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[blixation]

The theological: God is timeless, so there was no time before he created it. But time is only a measuring of change withing existence - so it cannot exists without the universe. Time can only have been created together with the universe.

Time was created along with the universe. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Beginning = time; Created = universe.

God is not bound to the chains of time as we are. He created time.

the Big Bang

What caused it? Why did the Big Bang, bang? Why would we talk about the Big band and not any other bang? Prove the Origin of the universe? You don't a universe so densly textured and so information rich by accident.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Cut the insulting tone? I think you are fed up with the truth of the scriptures you give no credence to. You can't bear to think that one day you will have to give an answer to everything you've done wrong against God. To every Holy Law broken. lies, thefts, anger, ...ect.

Bovine egesta. I'm fed up with the way you insult other people on these threads. That's not the way to conduct yourself, calling people "silly little men" - what's that got to do with the "truth of the scriptures"?

 

[blixation]

So like I said He botched His creation and had to destroy it. I guess He wasn't omnipotent enough to just fix it without killing off all the innocent babies and unborn childern and animals or maybe he just liked to drown things in those days or maybe the worldwide flood is just an origins myth of a ancient people and had nothing to do with what God actually did. You can worship this viscious murderer God of the ancient Hebrews if you want but I have other ideas about the nature of God.

On what standard do you hold God to be a viscious murderer? Do you realize that the moment you condemn somthing you have to assume there is some standard (moral law or right and wrong) by which to condemn it. For all denounceations implies a moral doctrine of some kind.

So if there is no God then there is no differences between an Adolf Hitler and a Mother Teresa. People may rape your family members cause absoulte right and wrong does not exsist. Oh, what a great world we live in where the people have denied the very being who created them.

 

[Freodin]

Time was created along with the universe. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Beginning = time; Created = universe.

God is not bound to the chains of time as we are. He created time.

Difficult philosophical problem: creating is an action, actions take time. You cannot create time without time to create.

So the option of a timeless God is out - that leaves an eternal God, who existed for all time.

But time needs a point of reference - a beginning.

So what was before the beginning? Ah, here is the problem: there was nothing. There simply was no time for something to be.

What caused it? Why did the Big Bang, bang? Why would we talk about the Big band and not any other bang? Prove the Origin of the universe? You don't a universe so densly textured and so information rich by accident.

Oh, you do!

Another of the logical conclusions that Christians do not want have to accept.

Things "densly textured" and "information rich" do exist without being "created": human thoughts.

I do not think you would deny that human thought is a complex structure. So where does it come from. Humans cannot "create" it for themselves - creation is a conscious act, and conscious acts need - thought!

That would leave God as creator of every single human thought. Are you one of those that blame evil on human free will? Well, surprise - there is no free will, if any of your thoughts is hand-made by God.

So who is the "creator" of your thoughts?

Or could it be that complex structures can indeed "arise" as a reaction to simpler structures?

 

[blixation]

I'm fed up with the way you insult other people on these threads. That's not the way to conduct yourself, calling people "silly little men" - what's that got to do with the "truth of the scriptures"?

How do you think one feels when insults are hurled at God, or condemning the very being of God? Now that, my friend, is not how one conducts himself. But you are right Karl one should not repay evil with evil. In the end God will judge and that's the truth of the matter. I'm not as patient as God, I would have wiped us out a long time ago. But thats why God is patient with all of humanity, including myself, not willing that any should perish unless its there choice.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

How do you think one feels when insults are hurled at God, or condemning the very being of God? Now that, my friend, is not how one conducts himself. But you are right Karl one should not repay evil with evil. In the end God will judge and that's the truth of the matter. I'm not as patient as God, I would have wiped us out a long time ago. But thats why God is patient with all of humanity, including myself, not willing that any should perish unless its there choice.

Except all that Freodin had said when you launched your arrogant little insults was that there never was a time when the universe didn't exist. How's that an insult hurled at God?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

On what standard do you hold God to be a viscious murderer? Do you realize that the moment you condemn somthing you have to assume there is some standard (moral law or right and wrong) by which to condemn it. For all denounceations implies a moral doctrine of some kind.

So if there is no God then there is no differences between an Adolf Hitler and a Mother Teresa. People may rape your family members cause absoulte right and wrong does not exsist. Oh, what a great world we live in where the people have denied the very being who created them.

Hey somebody who kills off nearly all life on earth and later orders the murder of various peoples an in one case even orders the murder of their livestock and pets is a viscious murderer in anybodies book. If someone rapes a family member of mine it doesn't give me the right to kill off his whole family inlcuding unborn children and his whole neighborhood and maybe everyone in his country does it? Maybe by your moral standard but not by mine. And I didn't even create him. God supposedly created these people and then murdered them all because some of them became corrupt. Not a very competent creator in my opinion.

I see you can't really deal with this argument. Not only is the global flood falsified by almost every aspect of science, it is not logical that an omnipotent God would create a world that so quickly got corrupted unless He happened to like corruption and that a loving and omnipotent God would have to kill off nearly everyone and everything to fix a problem that should never have occured in the first place if He was truely omnipotent is absurd. As for God actually ordering all those old Testament massacres and ethnic cleansings that is just the excuse of a warrior people. "God made us do it." Do you really think that God killed of most of the life on earth and ordered all those murders? I guess so. You would seem to worship an evil deity by any objective standard even though you claim He can't do evil.

The Frumious Bandersnatch