Can God be persuaded?

[Acceptance]

I know this is a funny question but today I was talking to my boyfriend about how in Exodus (4:10-17) God wanted Moses to go speak to Pharaoh to lead the people out of Egypt. But Moses asks God to let someone else do the talking, and God still says no. Moses begs again and finally God sends Aaron with him. We both kind of didn't know what to make of this because it seems so weird that a God would change His mind on account of a human -- but then again, He listens to and answer our prayers so... (I'm thinking outloud here).

Well, tonight we went to mass and it was as if God was talking straight to me when the priest read the Gospel. It was John 2:1-11 (or so). In this passage, Mary asks Jesus to help out the wedding couple with the wine that had run out. Jesus essentially tells his mom 'no', because His hour had not yet come. But then for some reason (perhaps trying to honor his mother) he changes his mind and makes the wine anyway. -- So here I have 2 examples where God has changed his mind based on the plea's of humans, (granted they are both highly favored, but still).

Can anyone guide me a bit with this one? What does the Catholic church say about this? -- I wouldn't be surprized at all if I'm off base with this one.

Thanks guys

 

[raptor13]

Interesting question. The Catholic Church believes that God is immutable or changing, so he can't change his mind.

In Exodus, I think God didn't change his mind, he still sent Moses, and it was still Moses who led the Hebrews in the end (as per God's plan). God only 'answered' Moses' 'prayer' by sending Aaron, too.

Jesus could change his mind because he was fully human just as he was fully God. So he could remain mutable.

My idea is that God doesn't change, but he does account for our prayers. By being outside of time, he hears our prayers before we even actually say them, so he takes them into account in His original Plan.

 

[Acceptance]

Interesting question. The Catholic Church believes that God is immutable or changing, so he can't change his mind.

Wait...if God is changing, then why couldn't he change his mind?

 

[raptor13]

woops sorry... i meant "immutable or unchanging"

my bad

 

[Col]

I often think about this. It is a bit like the question of "if I pray and things happen, is that prayer or was God going to do it anyway", or "if I hadn't prayed would it have happened". but I digress, back to the OP.
I don't know the answer to this but if you look at things logically (noting that God can be beyond logic of course),If say for example if you dedicate you life to God as a Christian but then you run off the rails and break all the commandments and are very far from God, I think it would be safe to say that although God would continue to love you during this time away (in anticipation of your eventual return to Him), He may change his mind about blessing your life and endeavours as you are living in disobedience, as to do otherwise would be to endorse your behaviour.
But hey, "Good question, well asked", it may be a good one to keep for Q & A on Orientation Day in Heaven. (Right up there with the prayer question)

Bless Ya
Col <><

Edited in this bid: I re-read the OP and in hind-sight my answer doesn't really address conscious persuasion, rather I have cited God changing his mind as result of our behaviour. And you wanted the Catholic view and thats not me is it. Sorry, I am having a "shocker"

 

[ps139]

I think God can change His mind about things, of course, not any dogmas, but about what happens to humans - like Moses, and especially like the wedding at Cana. There we have a wonderful example of people "praying" (asking) to Mary to pray in turn to Jesus with a request. Was Jesus originally planning to change the water into wine? As God, He knew that the wine had run out the second the last drop was spent. Yet He did not make new wine until His Mother interceded for someone.

 

[MariaRegina]

Isn't it true that God doesn't change, therefore, we must change?

Miracles happen because God changes something exterior to Himself. His very Word is Creative and Life-Giving.

We pray to accept His Will. His Will is our salvation.

 

[Acceptance]

Wow, I never even though about it that way before...Mary did intercede in that one.
Cool.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I think the problem we humans have thinking about this is that we are trying to think of God (a being outside of time) as operating inside of time. We see things as an orderly sequence of events...I pray, God listens, things change...etc. But since God is outside of time, He already knows what we will pray...

...on the other hand, it is clear in the Wedding of Cana that it wasn't Jesus' time, but He agreed to alter events due to Mary's intercession.

Anyone want some Tylenol?

 

[Michelina]

I think the problem we humans have thinking about this is that we are trying to think of God (a being outside of time) as operating inside of time. We see things as an orderly sequence of events...I pray, God listens, things change...etc. But since God is outside of time, He already knows what we will pray...

...on the other hand, it is clear in the Wedding of Cana that it wasn't Jesus' time, but He agreed to alter events due to Mary's intercession.

Anyone want some Tylenol?

Defensor, God exists outside time (in the eternal NOW) and inside time. He interacts with us. He tells us so. Jesus makes it very clear that He does. Cana is the best example of this, imo.

Jesus told His mother that it wasn't His time. Clear as day. Was He speaking the truth? Of course. (Aquinas: Truth Himself speaks truly or there's nothing true.)

But Mary asked anyway, wordlessly. Do as he tells you.
And Jesus changed His mind. It goes without saying that the Father changed His mind too, since Father & Son are always in perfect unity and agreement.

The trouble is in thinking that God is (only) Transcendent. He is also Immanent. In Him, we live and move and have our being (in time and space).

But since God is outside of time, He already knows what we will pray

This does not necessarily apply to Our Lord, Defensor. Jesus grew in age and wisdom, He was amazed at the faith of the Centurion, and He said that He didn't know the day nor the hour of His return.

This is a very intricate area of theology called "The Human Consciousness of Christ". I believe, with a few of the Fathers, that His Consciousness wore 'blinders', like horses wear, to focus His mission. That which was not necessary to His mission He didn't know.

PLEASE don't bombard me with the Fathers who taught the opposite, i.e. that Jesus knew all things while He was on earth. Remember, they were defending His Divinity during most of the time they wrote. Even virtual unanimity among the Fathers does not make them infallible.

 

[Michelina]

Wow, I never even though about it that way before...Mary did intercede in that one.
Cool.

When I pray the Luminous Mysteries, I spend a lot of time at Cana.

 

[Acceptance]

Well I still have the question...does the Catholic church teach that God is unchanging? Because I've since come across more passages of where God's actions/emotions are changed by talking to Moses:

In Numbers 11:1-2 God gets mad but Moses prays for Him to calm down and He does.

In Numbers 14:11-20 God wants to slay all the Isrealites while in the desert and Moses' prayers (sorry, but for lack of a better phrase) 'talk Him out of it'.

...
I also find it interesting that God tells us He's jealous -- this is another thing we don't typically think of God as being, yet He clearly tells us He is.

I'm so confused
Please

 

[Michelina]

Well I still have the question...does the Catholic church teach that God is unchanging?

The Church doesn't teach that, but many people think that way because God's perfections are not fully understood. Our Lord's Incarnation reveals the face of God, which is not a face of stone or the face of a robot. It is the face of a "person", a personal being.

Because I've since come across more passages of where God's actions/emotions are changed by talking to Moses:

In Numbers 11:1-2 God gets mad but Moses prays for Him to calm down and He does.

In Numbers 14:11-20 God wants to slay all the Isrealites while in the desert and Moses' prayers (sorry, but for lack of a better phrase) 'talk Him out of it'.

I also find it interesting that God tells us He's jealous -- this is another thing we don't typically think of God as being, yet He clearly tells us He is.

There are numerous examples of God's ability to change His mind. Read the book of Hosea, Acceptance, with this in mind. There you will see the face of God, a God of infinite MERCY and compassion.

 

[Acceptance]

The Church doesn't teach that, but many people think that way because God's perfections are not fully understood. Our Lord's Incarnation reveals the face of God, which is not a face of stone or the face of a robot. It is the face of a "person", a personal being.

That makes much more sense to me. When I think about this one, I think...why would God give us free will if He didn't have it Himself? Plus, there are (as you mentioned, and as I'm coming to find) not one, not two, not three, not four, but many many times where, in flat out black and white, God changes His mind. But I've dually noted that He never changes the core of faith, or commandments, or how we should live, or anything earth shatteringly major; but rather He interacts with us, and listens to our prayers and responds to them....right?

 

[Droobie]

I would have thought the God, being omniscient (knowing EVERYTHING), knew that He would send Aaron to Moses, but wanted Moses himself to be sure and ask for help. May this have been the case?

 

[Acceptance]

I would have thought the God, being omniscient (knowing EVERYTHING), knew that He would send Aaron to Moses, but wanted Moses himself to be sure and ask for help. May this have been the case?

Ahhh, I see what you're saying; I think yes it could be...for that instance. NO DOUBT! that God is All Knowing. Because He's all knowing, does that take away His ability to interact and react? I wouldn't see those two things as being mutually exclusive.

Genesis 18:17-21 says
"The Lord reflected: 'Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do...? Indeed I have singled him out that he may direct his sons...to keep the way of the Lord...so that the Lord may carry into effect for Abraham the promises he made about him'. Then the Lord said: 'The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grave, that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them...I mean to find out".

In this passage the Lord is clearly reflecting on what to do next, and by the end of the passage He decides what to do -- He'll go down and check it out for Himself. If He had already decided what He was going to do, what would the purpose of His reflection be? Maybe, because God is outside of time, this is beyond simple comprehension (hence my thinking 'outloud' here).

Hmmm...

 

[Droobie]

Because He's all knowing, does that take away His ability to interact and react?

I guess it would be hard for us to comprehend 'knowing everything'. How can God change His mind if He knows He will change His mind?

 

[Michelina]

...why would God give us free will if He didn't have it Himself? .....He interacts with us, and listens to our prayers and responds to them....right?

This is the most fundamental insight! God is free. People react strangely when one says that, responding: God is good, God is just. He cannot be anything imperfect.

But, God is good, just, etc. because He eternally chooses to be that way, in the Eternal NOW that Transcends time and space. Freedom is what makes Him a personal Being and not an Eternal Automaton. God's perfections are meaningless if He is not free.

God freely chose to create us free, so that we could freely choose to love Him. He freely interacts with us in accordance with His perfections -including His freedom- thru His Immanent presence with us. "In Him, we live and move and have our being."

God 'changes His mind' in response to what we do. That He knows -in His Transcendent existence in the Eternal NOW - what we will choose does not negate the fact that He interacts with His creatures.

God loves us and DESIRES to be loved by us.

 

[ElElohe]

Remember Jesus parable, as well, about the woman before the unrighteous judge. She came and came to him and eventually he gave into her request. Jesus finished by saying "How much more will God hear your requests."

I know this is a funny question but today I was talking to my boyfriend about how in Exodus (4:10-17) God wanted Moses to go speak to Pharaoh to lead the people out of Egypt. But Moses asks God to let someone else do the talking, and God still says no. Moses begs again and finally God sends Aaron with him. We both kind of didn't know what to make of this because it seems so weird that a God would change His mind on account of a human -- but then again, He listens to and answer our prayers so... (I'm thinking outloud here).

Well, tonight we went to mass and it was as if God was talking straight to me when the priest read the Gospel. It was John 2:1-11 (or so). In this passage, Mary asks Jesus to help out the wedding couple with the wine that had run out. Jesus essentially tells his mom 'no', because His hour had not yet come. But then for some reason (perhaps trying to honor his mother) he changes his mind and makes the wine anyway. -- So here I have 2 examples where God has changed his mind based on the plea's of humans, (granted they are both highly favored, but still).

Can anyone guide me a bit with this one? What does the Catholic church say about this? -- I wouldn't be surprized at all if I'm off base with this one.

Thanks guys

 

[Michelina]

Remember Jesus parable, as well, about the woman before the unrighteous judge. She came and came to him and eventually he gave into her request. Jesus finished by saying "How much more will God hear your requests."

Right, El! And there are many other instances like that.

El, can I ask you about your Username? It looks like Hebrew but my Hebrew is a little rusty. Isn't it a name of God?

BTW, I like your signature!