Can anyone give me an answer?

Phinehas2 · Mar 4, 2008

Dear gwdboi,
The argument is that the physical bodies of men and woman have sexual organs which when used together reproduce. So the primary purpose of the sexual organs is reproduction. So same-sex attraction isnt natural in terms of function. Thats not to say it doesnt occur.

And some who are Christians have same-sex attraction so its not a case of Christian bigotry against homosexuals anymore than it is a case of gay bigotry against Christians.

But when we come to know Jesus as Lord we realise that many things we would like to do are not really right. The laws and thinking in countries like ours have been based on Christian values. Same-sex sex is one of those. The current thinking abandons same-sex sex as error, and indeed follows the general abandonment of the Christian belief that sex outdside marriage is error.

k2svpete · Mar 4, 2008

So, as has been mentioned already there is the natural issue about no offspring from same sex relationships. No need to add to that.

Shall we examine the rise in the profile of homosexualtiy in society? People do not have to be Christians to disagree with homosexuality, with the exception of depraved societies such as pagan Rome and the Greek Empires, at times, homosexuality has always remained a taboo, something not to be acknowledged or promoted. Why is this? There is an uneasiness within that it just 'isn't right'.

The same train of logic that says 'it doesn't hurt anyone' could equally be applied to consensual incestuous relationships, people with psycopathic desires killing those who wish to die etc. Extreme examples but they are justified using that logic.

In the first page there was a reference to greed and self-gratification being a couple of things that should attract attention. What is sin if not self-gratification I ask?

The permissiveness of society has increased over the last 50 years. Only 50 years across all of human history has seen a lot of change in what is considered normal or acceptable. Does anyone see todays society as being the better for the excesses and permissiveness that is now considered the norm?

If there is a decline in society could it not be concluded that this decline parallels the increase in permissiveness and moral decline of standards? While people may say the evidence is circumstantial, it is quite a compelling point of view.

Archer93 · Mar 4, 2008

k2svpete said:
So, as has been mentioned already there is the natural issue about no offspring from same sex relationships. No need to add to that.

Shall we examine the rise in the profile of homosexualtiy in society? People do not have to be Christians to disagree with homosexuality, with the exception of depraved societies such as pagan Rome and the Greek Empires, at times, homosexuality has always remained a taboo, something not to be acknowledged or promoted. Why is this? There is an uneasiness within that it just 'isn't right'.

The same train of logic that says 'it doesn't hurt anyone' could equally be applied to consensual incestuous relationships, people with psycopathic desires killing those who wish to die etc. Extreme examples but they are justified using that logic.

In the first page there was a reference to greed and self-gratification being a couple of things that should attract attention. What is sin if not self-gratification I ask?

The permissiveness of society has increased over the last 50 years. Only 50 years across all of human history has seen a lot of change in what is considered normal or acceptable. Does anyone see todays society as being the better for the excesses and permissiveness that is now considered the norm?

If there is a decline in society could it not be concluded that this decline parallels the increase in permissiveness and moral decline of standards? While people may say the evidence is circumstantial, it is quite a compelling point of view.

The only thing that validates a relationship is the potential of offspring? Some heterosexuals are naturally unable to conceive. Does that make their relationships wrong?

What makes a society depraved? Apart from the acceptance of homosexual activity, that is?
Some cultures don't have an issue with it, some do. What makes one wrong and the other right?
A nebulous 'uneasiness within' is an argument against any given individual doing it, not one that relates to everyone.

Without reference to the bible, what exactly is the problem with consentual incest? It squicks the heck out of me, and there are inbreeding issues, but the first is not anyone else's problem. the second- quite possibly. The same issue, however, confronts anyone with a genetic disability or similar, though.
And I'd rather a psychopath killed those who wanted to die than those who didn't.... trouble is, psychopathy doens't tend to work like that.

Is all self-gratification sin? Then I realy hope you don't enjoy posting on these forums as much as you seem to...

People have been bewailing the decline of society and the rise in 'undesirable' behaviour for millenia. Societies change because people change. The problems arise because 'society' as a whole takes a while to catch up with the reality of some of those who are part of it.
It was said that ending segregation would destroy society. It didn't.

Phinehas2 · Mar 4, 2008

Dear Archer93,

The only thing that validates a relationship is the potential of offspring? Some heterosexuals are naturally unable to conceive. Does that make their relationships wrong?

Firstly that wasn’t what was said. The man/woman union was clearly designed primarily for reproduction. Furthermore the organs which are sexual organs, the penis and the vagina are designed for each other to function. There are no other sexual organs, the tongue is not a sexual organ and neither is the anus. I know some people claim they are but any organ could be used for some sexual gratification, yet none of those organs are primarily for sex.
Now the problem for homosexuals is their sexual organs are still designed for the opposite sex, their whole thinking is based on their sexual desires.

gwdboi · Mar 4, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear gwdboi,
The argument is that the physical bodies of men and woman have sexual organs which when used together reproduce. So the primary purpose of the sexual organs is reproduction. So same-sex attraction isnt natural in terms of function. Thats not to say it doesnt occur.

And some who are Christians have same-sex attraction so its not a case of Christian bigotry against homosexuals anymore than it is a case of gay bigotry against Christians.

But when we come to know Jesus as Lord we realise that many things we would like to do are not really right. The laws and thinking in countries like ours have been based on Christian values. Same-sex sex is one of those. The current thinking abandons same-sex sex as error, and indeed follows the general abandonment of the Christian belief that sex outdside marriage is error.

Using your above argument it would be abhorrent to wear a toe ring, since the function of the toe is not to hold a ring then one who wears a toe ring is violating the function of the toe. Same goes with body piercings. Same goes with smoking, overeating etc. Do you get my point? Just because something isn't in accord with biological or physiological function doesn't mean it's wrong or evil or anything. Not to mention that hundreds of species of animals perform homosexual acts... how much more natural can you get? Also, saying that the function of human sex is soley for reproduction is a traditional christian belief, sex is also for pleasure, it's also an expression of love, not just a physiological funtion.

Phinehas2 · Mar 4, 2008

Dear gwdboi,

Using your above argument it would be abhorrent to wear a toe ring, since the function of the toe is not to hold a ring then one who wears a toe ring is violating the function of the toe.

But that isnt my argument. The toe isnt a sex organ. The only way the toe could be classified as a sex organ is by using it to stimulate sexual desire. In that way most if not all organs could do that which could make them all sex organs, and where would that leave the penis and the vagina?
Do you see?

KCKID · Mar 4, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Now the problem for homosexuals is their sexual organs are still designed for the opposite sex, their whole thinking is based on their sexual desires.

And the thinking of heterosexuals isn't?

I recall a rather immature catch-cry that was doing the rounds here some years ago. Probably still is. It went: "If not for sex, males would throw rocks at a girl until they found some other use for her."

While that is obviously silly it seems that most pubescent males think of little else. So, once again the homosexual is being targetted, this time for having the monopoly on 'sexual thoughts'.

Phinehas2 · Mar 4, 2008

Dear KCKID,

And the thinking of heterosexuals isn't?

The whole problem for homosexuals is their sexual organs are still designed for the opposite sex. So no it is not the same for heterosexuals whose desires are in line with their sexual organs. It is the homosexuals thinking that is out of order.

Polycarp1 · Mar 4, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear KCKID,
The whole problem for homosexuals is their sexual organs are still designed for the opposite sex. So no it is not the same for heterosexuals whose desires are in line with their sexual organs. It is the homosexuals thinking that is out of order.

Might I point out that this thread is not about the putative sinfulness of homosexual sex acts, but about the murder of one teenager by another for having romantic feelings towards him.

Sometimes it seems like those who are insistent on proclaiming the sinfulness of homosexual sex think far more about gay sex than almost any gay person of my acquaintance. I sometimes feel like telling them to get their minds out of gay people's crotches. And further, they seem to find it a convenient hat on which to hang such "Christian" acts as tearing a denominational church in half, justifying incitement to assault and murder, and other immoral acts.

Would you be so kind, Phinehas, as to avoid hijacking this thread to a topic already argued at length in numerous other threads?

Ramona · Mar 4, 2008

gwdboi · Mar 4, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear gwdboi,
But that isnt my argument. The toe isnt a sex organ. The only way the toe could be classified as a sex organ is by using it to stimulate sexual desire. In that way most if not all organs could do that which could make them all sex organs, and where would that leave the penis and the vagina?
Do you see?

You seem to be missing my point. I basically just used your logic and applied it to a seperate scenario. Basically you're saying that we should only do with our bodies that which is functional. You argue that the function of sexual organs is for reproduction only. I argue that the funtion of sexual organs is not just for reporduction, but for pleasure as well, if that weren't the case then sex would not be appealing. Also, your basic premiss doesn't hold up when applied to a seperate scenario: funtionality of a body part via my toe ring analogy. The purpose of a body part is not always determined by its funtion... if that were so then there would be no such thing as obscene gestures since the pure funtion of the fingers is not to communicate but to grab and hold on to things. Do you see why your logic fails?

ReformedChapin · Mar 4, 2008

Trying to use pure logic for ethics is useless, we will all come with a million different conclusions based on our presuppositions.

praying · Mar 4, 2008

gwdboi said:
This may or may not turn into a rant... depending on how emotional I get about it. Can anyone tell me why it is wrong to be gay... there is a condition though... I don't want ANY quotations from the Bible. Can anyone, using sheer logic and scientific study say that it is in some way morally wrong to be gay? Can anybody give a clear argument?

IMHO it is christian bigotry that lands us with a dead eight grader who was just looking for a valentine... if you don't know what I'm talking about goto: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pol/583978868.html .

I believe that ultimately the church is responsible for such crimes. Most Americans identify as christians and look to the church for truth. We have children killing each other over this issue... what is that child hearing that makes him want to KILL his classmate on the sole basis of that classmate's sexual orientation? There needs to be an end to the bigotry and an end to the hate! People say that homosexuality is unnatural and that homosexuals suffer... I tell you this, the only reason that I have suffered due to my homosexuality was because others decided to hate me for it. What has happened to love? Isn't that what Jesus preached about so much? Love? Love without strings attached. As far as I know Jesus didn't say "I love you so long as you aren't x, y, z." Jesus said "whosoever will may come"

I am not a christian but the sheer logic is undeniable. Search your hearts... tell me what you think.

Is there any moral rule (for lack of a better word) that can be shown to be wrong or right using sheer logic and scientific study ?

UnitedInChrist · Mar 4, 2008

BreadAlone said:
Nor can ignoring the very Word of God.

~~

As to the OP; ask yourself these questions:

Why is murder wrong? Why is pedophilia wrong? Why is robbery wrong? Why is rape wrong?

Because the moral law in our hearts convicts us that it's wrong. Furthermore, it's bluntly obvious that all of these things negatively affects another person.

It's the same with homosexuality. The moral law giver first, foremost, and most importantly has said it's wrong. That in and of itself is enough for me.

But actively engaging in homosexuality not only causes your partner to sin, but belittles God's wonderful gift of marriage, abuses his gift of sex, and blinds people to the ultimate relationship exampled by marriage; the relationship between Christ and his Church.

...Thanks for representing the posters issues with "christians" in spades Breadalone.....
You go against your own logic in your very first sentence. First off, you incorrectly put homosexuality in with crimes that VIOLATE OTHER PEOPLE. Murder is wrong because you are taking another person's life. That's plain and simple....Yet, since you seem to be such a hardcore christian..do you have issue with murder? Happens randomly throughout the bible so is that ok? Should we continue to stone the adulteror? Cut the tongue out of children that sass their parents? Kill those that don't keep the sabath holy? How do you feel about murder??? Morally wrong?? So then the bible is filled with immoral conduct? Please do explain...
Secondly..pedophilia...CRIME. Sexually violating a minor, against their will, is a crime in most any civilized country. Again, you are in violation of ANOTHER person. Robbery? Same thing my friend. Stealing..you are taking from someone, through force, which is not yours. You are violating someone else. As goes the same for rape, etc... Homosexuality impacts whom else other than the homosexual? You're right...NO ONE! Two consenting adults can do whatever they want together. Should one be a minor..then there is an issue for both hetero and homo sexuals..You are violating someone under age. Homosexuality is ONE PERSON...which does not bring violence to others, nor are you stealing, raping, abusing others...It is your sexuality. Period. End of story. For you to use the arguement and put it in with violent CRIMES IS IN ITSELF CRIMMINAL....hence the reason why so many christians do not practice their faith any longer. They are tired of the self-righteous being the squeeky wheel and pushing THEIR AGENDAS on what is moral and not. MANY HETEROSEXUALS have sex the same way homosexuals do. In fact, many homosexuals don't even have the sex that most think they do. Belittling marriage? Hmmmm...wonder what your thoughts are on the 70% divorce rate in this country??? I think HETEROSEXUALS BELITTLE MARRIAGE FAR BETTER THAN GAY PEOPLE MY DEAR!

CaDan · Mar 4, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear Archer93,
Firstly that wasnt what was said. The man/woman union was clearly designed primarily for reproduction. Furthermore the organs which are sexual organs, the penis and the vagina are designed for each other to function. There are no other sexual organs, the tongue is not a sexual organ and neither is the anus. I know some people claim they are but any organ could be used for some sexual gratification, yet none of those organs are primarily for sex.
Now the problem for homosexuals is their sexual organs are still designed for the opposite sex, their whole thinking is based on their sexual desires.

There needs to be a short name for this. Perhaps "Argument from Butt Secks."

CaDan · Mar 4, 2008

Phinehas2 said:
Dear gwdboi,
But that isnt my argument. The toe isnt a sex organ. The only way the toe could be classified as a sex organ is by using it to stimulate sexual desire. In that way most if not all organs could do that which could make them all sex organs, and where would that leave the penis and the vagina?
Do you see?

Hmm . . . .

I must have missed your appointment as the arbiter of all sex organs. No matter, it's useful to know that now.

So. Scrotums--sex organ or not?

Zaac · Mar 4, 2008

gwdboi said:
This may or may not turn into a rant... depending on how emotional I get about it. Can anyone tell me why it is wrong to be gay... there is a condition though... I don't want ANY quotations from the Bible. Can anyone, using sheer logic and scientific study say that it is in some way morally wrong to be gay? Can anybody give a clear argument?

IMHO it is christian bigotry that lands us with a dead eight grader who was just looking for a valentine... if you don't know what I'm talking about goto: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pol/583978868.html .

I believe that ultimately the church is responsible for such crimes. Most Americans identify as christians and look to the church for truth. We have children killing each other over this issue... what is that child hearing that makes him want to KILL his classmate on the sole basis of that classmate's sexual orientation? There needs to be an end to the bigotry and an end to the hate! People say that homosexuality is unnatural and that homosexuals suffer... I tell you this, the only reason that I have suffered due to my homosexuality was because others decided to hate me for it. What has happened to love? Isn't that what Jesus preached about so much? Love? Love without strings attached. As far as I know Jesus didn't say "I love you so long as you aren't x, y, z." Jesus said "whosoever will may come"

I am not a christian but the sheer logic is undeniable. Search your hearts... tell me what you think.

Here's the deal. Remove God from the equation and you can justify doing whatever you want. So you asking folks not to use quotations from the Bible is the equivalent of you saying you don't want to know what God has to say on the matter. As such, it should behoove anyone to try and answer your question when you don't want to listen to what the God Who created you says.

KCKID · Mar 4, 2008

Zaac said:
Here's the deal. Remove God from the equation and you can justify doing whatever you want. So you asking folks not to use quotations from the Bible is the equivalent of you saying you don't want to know what God has to say on the matter. As such, it should behoove anyone to try and answer your question when you don't want to listen to what the God Who created you says.

It's not so much that quotations from the Bible are not to be used. It's more that people use them at times inappropriately and/or irrelevantly.

A number of biblical quotations used by posters in regard to homosexuality are not even about homosexuality per se. There are NO scriptures that allude to one's sexual orientation, for example. And one's sexual orientation toward another of the same gender is what a homosexual is. So, WHERE does the Bible refer to homosexuals?

So, many Christians produce scriptures merely by rote. They have no idea what these scriptures really mean.

Archer93 · Mar 4, 2008

CaDan said:
There needs to be a short name for this. Perhaps "Argument from Butt Secks."

Apparently I have no reputation-giving power. However, for this and for all your other posts, please take the intent for the deed....

gwdboi · Mar 4, 2008

Zaac said:
Here's the deal. Remove God from the equation and you can justify doing whatever you want. So you asking folks not to use quotations from the Bible is the equivalent of you saying you don't want to know what God has to say on the matter. As such, it should behoove anyone to try and answer your question when you don't want to listen to what the God Who created you says.

First off, that's your god, not mine, I was created through the divine love of the goddess who believes that deviation is her handiwork and our only law is to harm no one; I do not accept the bible as an authority and thusly it would be useless to use it in such an argument. Everyone is stumbling upon the point but is refusing the implications. Anti-homosexuality is a christian moral SO DON'T PRESS IT UPON THE REST OF US! Believe what you want to believe, but allow others to live in peace. Especially keep such ideas out of our politics, HOMOSEXUALS ARE NOT SECOND CLASS CITICZENS; the religious right would have us think so which is the essence of bigotry, the beginnings of hate, and the path to death. I thought the bible taught love anyway... christian love must be reserved for christians only... perhaps that explains the increase in people turning back to the old ways. We try to embody true love... of others and nature. We desire nothing else than to live in peace with all around us. I think that the ideas of Jesus really do have their source in love, but his followers have used their "divine knowledge" to attempt to control mass populations like a tool of brainwashing, that's some sick form of love. My challange is for people to look, without bias, deep within themselves and deeply ponder their view of homosexuality and STOP PARROTING OFF THINGS THAT THEY'VE HEARD FROM THEIR PREECHER AND ACTUALLY CONSIDER EXPRESSING AND INDEPENDENT THOUGHT! If you don't examine your own thoughts how do you know what you think is any good? Is it right for people to be treated like dirt because they are not a carbon copy of yourself? Think with an open mind and come to your own conclusion... unless that's a sin too!

Can anyone give me an answer?

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