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The actions of people who call themselves Christians and yet frankly never act like it is a concern for another thread. The OP asked what logically moral reason there is for homosexuality to be wrong, and we're trying to discuss that here. Thank you for the false accusation.Apparently you did not even bother to read the OP. You just saw another new thread to spew forth your pre-digested pap.
The question for which the OP asked for an answer was prompted by the murder of a 14-year-old boy by another 14-year-old boy because of a valentine card. Shocking. And people -- Christians -- try to excuse the boy, not necessarily the murder, but they justify his feelings of disgust, which led to the murder.
When I was in eighth grade, it was expected that we would give valentine cards to all of our classmates regardless of their sex.
Hating sin is not bigotry first of all. Now if people are hating and killing people for committing the sin of homosexuality, they are in the wrong just like the homosexual is.
Homosexuality is a symptom of a disease; just like murder, robbery, and other forms of sexual immorality are.
The disase is sin, and all humanity is infected with it. There is only one cure, and that cure is Christ.
The actions of people who call themselves Christians and yet frankly never act like it is a concern for another thread. The OP asked what logically moral reason there is for homosexuality to be wrong, and we're trying to discuss that here. Thank you for the false accusation.
Wrong. Homosexuality is a symptom of a greater "disease": sin.You are still making these assertions like "homosexuality is a disease" upon what do you base these assertions? Personal medical and psychological expertise? I doubt it. Homosexuality is no more a disease than being right handed is. It cannot be changed, numerous studies have been done:
Shidlo, Ariel; Schroeder, Michael; Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, Vol 33(3), Jun 2002. pp. 249-259.
Haldeman, Douglas C.; Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, Vol 33(3), Jun 2002. pp. 260-264.
Rothblum, Esther D.; Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Vol. 62 (2), April 1994. pp. 211-212
Haldeman, Douglas C.; Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, Vol 62(2), Apr 1994. pp. 221-227.
There is no "cure" because homosexuality is not a disease.
No, the funny thing is I've posted the following three times now, and you haven't even begun to address a single point, and actually accuse me of not saying anything.And the ironic thing is that you haven't even begun to provide a LOGICAL MORAL/ETHICAL reason for the notion that homosexuality is wrong. and btw, the sarcasm is in poor taste.
But actively engaging in homosexuality not only causes your partner to sin, but belittles God's wonderful gift of marriage, abuses his gift of sex, and blinds people to the ultimate relationship exampled by marriage; the relationship between Christ and his Church.
Wrong. Homosexuality is a symptom of a greater "disease": sin.
Sin infects ALL people, not exclusively homosexuals. I base this observation on the best source there is, the holy Word of God.
The Bible is the highest form of "reason" there is.petitio prencipii!
The point of the discussion is to provide logical evidence and leave DOGMA out of it. Justify your beliefs without falling on the Bible which cannot be logically proven. Can you not use reason to justify your beliefs?
OH NOES! I HATE when that happens!!Arrrrgggghhh!!!!
I spent over an hour crafting an answer to to Bread Alone's response to me but when I hit the "Submit" button it disappeared into the ether, never to be recovered. Sometimes this site is just so frustrating.
The Bible is sheer logic, however, and the root of all science and understanding.I doubt that I'll be able to recreate it half as well. I may try again tomorrow anyway.
The short version:
My "accusation" was not false. The OP was prompted by a muder that you either did not care about or that you missed because you did not read the OP. Why else would you object to the "sudden" interjection of the idea of killing?
Then I addressed your concern that instead of "false accusations" we should consider the actual question in the OP.
I quoted from all of your posts in this thread and I could not find any posts where you gave a "logically moral reason" that did not involve quoting the Bible or presenting a conclusion withiut the backing premises, because those backing premises were clearly entirely Biblical.
None of these matched the OP request for "sheer logic and scientific study."
I pointed out that Paul assures us in Romans 1:19-20 that "because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse."
If this statement is true, as we both believe, and if "homosexuality" is wrong, as you also believe, then there should be no problem showing that second conition to be a fact using "sheer logic and scientific study."
Okay, some responses to what's been said so far:
First, a short note on "the Word of God" -- if you actually read the Bible, the term gets used in three ways. First and foremost, it's Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son, in His capacity as the co-eternal member of the Godhead efficaciously causing all things which were made to be made. See John 1:1-18 for details. Second, an individual utterance spoken in God's name by one of the prophets. And third, the collection of such utterances taken as a unit, as in 'You have put God's Word to no account for the traditions of men.'
The Bible is a precious document, our primary source for learning of God's will and the history of His dealings with man. But when it becomes elevated to a status equal to Him of whom it speaks, then those well-meaning Christians who have done so are guilty of the same sin as those described in Romans 1: substituting a created thing for the Creator. To give proper respect to Scripture without doing so is a fine line to walk, but it's what we're called on to do.
Second, it appears that some people hjave convicted Lawrence King of the "sin of homosexuality" -- which Bread Alone at least defined as homosexual acts. (I'm not singling him out, but what people mean by "homosexuality" seems to vary with the poster, and he at least made clear his understanding of the term.)
To be specific, this barely-15-year-old eighth grader "came out" as gay to his classmates, and wore makeup and jewelry. (Which is not saying that all gay people do that -- merely that this one boy did. I've seen the terms 'femme' and 'genderqueer' used in a non-pejorative sense to describe this; someone with more knowledge may want to clarify the proper usage.) There has been no evidence in any news reports to indicate that Lawrence actually acted on his sexuality -- was 'homosexual' in Bread Alone's usage. He was gay -- homosexual -- only in the sense that he identified as having same=sex desires, the customary meaning of the terms when used by gay people and those who support and defend them. And, tragically, he gave a Valentine to classmate Brandon McInerney, and in consequence was shot twice through the brain and died.
Brandon is a tragedy too. Here we have a 14-year-old kid, also in the 8th grade, who somehow got access to a gun and somehow formed the idea that it was acceptable to kill another person for making romantic advances to him. And in consequence he's to be tried as an adult for first degree murder, aggravated as a hate crime, plus a couple of lesser charges. For all practical purposes his life is now over as well.
This hits home with me. Just before I loaded this thread, I exchanged e-mails with a fellow author in a "shared universe" group of stories. And among the memorable characters he created is a boy named Lawrence, 15 years old, gay and with gender dysphoria issues, and was (like Lawrence King) estranged from his family. The story he appeared in is two years old now; Lawrence will be supporting cast in an upcoming installment of one of my stories. The fact that his Lawrence is blond and lived in Florida (the real-life Larence had dark brown hair and lived in Oxnard, California) seems almost negligible beside the similarities.
For me, this is not a random news story of a tragedy somewhere else. I've had that boy's fictional analog running around inside my head, trying out variant plotlines for the installment he appears in. I know that boy; this is family that got killed.
Now, to me the question is, how did Brandon get the idea it was right to do what he did? And knowing the answer to that, how can we stop it from happening again? Maybe not a murder, just some kid getting beat up, and it barely makes the local news if that. And what's our culpability about all this? How could we have prevented it, and didn't?
For me, the next person to redirect the issue of violence against gay people into a debate of their sinfulness is guilty of being an accomplice before the fact to assault and/or murder. We Christians have had the public ear, and we''ve filled it with the idea that gay people are abominable, evil people. And those who would use violence against abominations and evil have gotten a license from that that it is OK to beat up and kill gay people. It doesn't matter if that's not what you consider just and proper -- by your words you are enabling the ones who do consider it just and proper.
There needs to be an end to it. Now. Before there's another Matthew Shepard or Lawrence King. If you choose otherwise, their blood is on your hands.
The Bible is sheer logic, however, and the root of all science and understanding.
And why don't you continue on in that chapter? You know, the part about "God turned them over to their shameful lusts" where they abandoned natural relations with women for "unnatural" ones. Or the part where their "women abandoned natural relations with men and were inflammed with lust for one another (or something to that extent.)"
But often in their younger years, homosexuals claim to feel "wrong" about their lifestyle. (At least some do.)
This may or may not turn into a rant... depending on how emotional I get about it. Can anyone tell me why it is wrong to be gay... there is a condition though... I don't want ANY quotations from the Bible. Can anyone, using sheer logic and scientific study say that it is in some way morally wrong to be gay? Can anybody give a clear argument?
IMHO it is christian bigotry that lands us with a dead eight grader who was just looking for a valentine... if you don't know what I'm talking about goto: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/pol/583978868.html .
I believe that ultimately the church is responsible for such crimes. Most Americans identify as christians and look to the church for truth. We have children killing each other over this issue... what is that child hearing that makes him want to KILL his classmate on the sole basis of that classmate's sexual orientation? There needs to be an end to the bigotry and an end to the hate! People say that homosexuality is unnatural and that homosexuals suffer... I tell you this, the only reason that I have suffered due to my homosexuality was because others decided to hate me for it. What has happened to love? Isn't that what Jesus preached about so much? Love? Love without strings attached. As far as I know Jesus didn't say "I love you so long as you aren't x, y, z." Jesus said "whosoever will may come"
I am not a christian but the sheer logic is undeniable. Search your hearts... tell me what you think.
Honey, I've posted a question similar to this one couple of day ago. Do not expect a simple, straightforward and logical answer. It is impossible to get a responce that has at least a trace of thinking.
It's like talking to Bots.
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