Can Amil prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years?

DavidPT said:

Those things have been discussed and debated to no end. I tend to think the purpose of the thousand years, in regards to reigning with Christ, involves saints being bodily resurrected, the same way Christ was, then they ruling over the surviving nations with a rod of iron. Amils think otherwise. I and other Premils have things that we feel support our view and Amils have things they feel support their view. Thus, the debate is basically in vain since neither side is willing to change their position, regardless.

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Why are you trying to speak for all Amils and all Premils? You know that there are Amils here like myself and SG who used to be Premils and became Amils. So, how can you act as if it's not possible for someone to change their mind? Maybe it's not possible for you, especially if you require scripture that explicity states that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years. But, not everyone requires the level of proof that you do in order to be convinced that one side or the other is true.

Therefore, the reason for this OP, as in, another way to maybe figure out where the thousand years should be placed. If it can be undeniably shown with Scripture that the beast is in the pit during the thousand years, the debate is over. That proves Amil, thus debunks Premil. Which means we can now all be on the same page. Realistically though, we are all never going to be on the same page in regards to some of this, yet, it doesn't hurt to at least try to be.

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You have debated Premil vs. Amil for many years and your view hasn't changed much at all during that time. We're supposed to believe that your view could change significantly any time soon? That's highly doubtful and you know that.

I think Amil, who tend to be historists, are going to say that Satan was bound by the gospel, and metaphorically in the bottomless pit.

And the beast was Nero, who ended up in the lake of fire when he died.

Douggg said:

I think Amil, who tend to be historists, are going to say that Satan was bound by the gospel, and metaphorically in the bottomless pit.

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I don't know that Amils tend to be historicists. Some are partial preterists, some are historicists, some are idealists and, believe it or not, some are futurists. And some are a mix of those. I wouldn't try to say that Amils tend to be any of those necessarily.

And the beast was Nero, who ended up in the lake of fire when he died.

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That is what partial preterists typically believe, but that is not what Amils like sovereigngrace, jeffweedaman and I believe. We don't even believe that the beast is a man. And we believe that the beast is bound while Satan is bound and will be loosed when Satan is loosed.

Spiritual Jew said:

We don't even believe that the beast is a man. And we believe that the beast is bound while Satan is bound and will be loosed when Satan is loosed.

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Do you believe that there is a time of the end little horn person (Daniel 8) coming who will stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus - and be destroyed without (human) hands (Daniel 8:25) ?

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you believe there is anything Satan can't do without the beast? If so, what?

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Satan can't be three persons, as the fulfillment Revelation 16 by himself.

In Revelation 16:

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

out of Satan's mouth.
out of the beast's mouth.
out of the false prophet mouth.

DavidPT said:

That's the problem, meaning as in how I see things. If the thousand years and satan's little season is meaning before the 2nd coming, ch 13 would have to be referring to the little season after the thousand years. 42 months as opposed to a thousand years, the former matches that description, the latter doesn't. The problem I'm referring to is this. The 42 months only get fulfilled once and that neither satan nor the beast can be in the pit at the time.

That means the 42 months precede the thousand years, or it follows it. Revelation 20:4 proves it precedes the thousand years---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---their martyrdom is because of this---The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit. It's not going to ascend out of the pit two times, right? If it already ascends out of the pit before satan is loosed, how can it ascend out of the pit after satan is loosed?


Assuming the 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the thousand years, though I know you disagree that it does, but for the sake of argument, let's still assume it does. That presents a major problem if we place the beginning of the thousand years around the time of the cross. That places the 42 month reign of the beast before the time of the cross. Of course though, that is not even remotely your position, yet that's what it would have to mean if the 42 months have to precede the thousand years and that if one places the beginning of the thousand years around the time of the cross.

A lot of this debate, at least from my pov, centers around where the 42 month reign of the beast fits, in relation to the thousand years. It seems like it should fit satan's little season, yet, how can it in light of the following that I keep bringing up like a broken record---Revelation 20:4--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. I just can't ignore the fact that that verse implies that the beast ascends out of the pit before satan is loosed, actually, before he is even bound.

How is it even remotely possible that this part---neither his image---does not involve the 2nd beast in Revelation 13 where it leads to what is recorded in Revelation 13:14? How can there already be an image to not worship before Revelation 13:14 is even fulfilled first?

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

How can this---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image--not be meaning this same beast and image here---an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live?






For one thing, while the beast is in the pit, even if satan isn't, nothing involving the 42 month reign of the beast is taking place in the earth in the meantime. But that doesn't answer what you asked. Right now I can't think of a good answer.



Good questions. Haven't really given it much thought. I might ponder that for a bit. Until then I don't know what to you tell you for now.

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1. You need to grasp the symbolism. The abyss is a spiritual prison for spiritual beings. It is not a physical geographical place. It is a spiritual state.

2. Revelation 9 proves demons are there right now. Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4 and Revelation 20 reinforce that.

3. This is before the coming of Christ.

4. The scorpion-like locusts are demons.

5, They have a king over them - "whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." These names mean destroyer. We know who owns that name. The kingdom of darkness has only one king - Satan.

6. The demonic realm is released from its spiritual prison before the coming of Jesus. This corresponds with Satan's little season (Revelation 20) and the removal of the restraint on the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2), thus corroborating Amillennialism.

7. It is their mission to torment and destroy before Jesus returns. This is the mission of demons in this day.

Until you see the spiritual symbolism, I doubt you are going to grasp the meaning of Revelation 9 and 20.

DavidPT said:

Prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit when satan is. If that can be proved with Scripture, not speculation, not with alleged logical deductions, but with Scripture, that would be the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned.

I have Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that proves that the beast ascends out of the pit before satan is loosed. What Scriptures do you have that disproves that, that trumps that?

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We have many times but you talk around it repeatedly.

Revelation is just like every other book in the Bible: it describes two kingdoms that are in constant spiritual conflict with each other. John the apostle is giving insight into different aspects of the invisible and visible warfare going on in this current age. When the kingdom of darkness is described it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is seen in the triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world through the great commission.

Kingdoms and their heads are basically indivisible. The head of each state (whether Monarch, President or Prime Minister) is seen as the face of the nation or the personification of what that nation is all about. They are essentially the voice of the people. Even in United Kingdom law, perpetrators of a crime are listed as “R – v the criminal” meaning “Regina v” in a legal case, Regina referring to the Queen. She is counted as the offended party, even though she was not personally injured. She is simply the representative head of the people. The leader has always been viewed as the one who stands on behalf of countless subjects.

The king and his kingdom are used synonymously and interchangeably throughout Scripture. The kingdom of God is described in Scripture in terms that are synonymous with Christ Himself. He is its head and its very purpose for existing; Satan likewise is the same in the kingdom of darkness. He is the representative head/king of the kingdom of darkness. These are a unitary whole.

A kingdom is basically “a king with a domain.” You do not have a king without a kingdom. You do not have a kingdom without a king (or queen). Basically, where you have the king, you have the kingdom, or, where you have the kingdom, you have the king. The kingdom of God is a kingdom of power, authority and spiritual truth, and the kingdom of darkness is a kingdom of spiritual lies and deception.

When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it sometimes includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. For example, Scripture describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.” You cannot divorce the king from his kingdom. A kingdom without a king is not a kingdom.

Satan is described as “the prince (or ruler) of the devils” in Matthew 9:34, 12:24 and Mark 3:22. Matthew 9:34 extends the name to “Beelzebub the prince of the devils.” In Revelation 9:10-11 the scorpion-like demonic host (that is shown to be currently incarcerated within the abyss) are said to have “a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.” This can be no other that Satan. Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).”

Satan is actually a king that has a throne. He carries authority and kingship over the kingdom of darkness. We see reference to that in Revelation 2:13 where it says, “I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat [Gr. thronos] is.” This statement did not in any way limit the throne of Satan to the city of Pergamos. Now, of course, the devil is not a physical being, so he does not have to sit upon a physical throne. This is basically a symbol speaking of Satan’s dominion over that particular city. Revelation 13:2 also refers to this, saying “the dragon gave him (the beast) his power, and his seat [Gr. thronos], and great authority.” Satan’s throne is not limited to one geographic city or nation. It is seen where lives submit to his lies and influence and implement his will.

Another thing we should note, before moving on, Satan is the actual source of power for the beast. The beast therefore does not function outside of Satan and his authority. The beast is as reliant upon the devil for his power as a large flat-screen television is reliant upon electricity. While these two evil entities are distinction there is a definite, notable and intimate inter-dependence upon each other. This agrees with 2 Thessalonians 2, where the mystery of iniquity is described as “him, whose coming is after [Gr. kata or through or according to] ‘the working’ [Gr. energeia] of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.” Thayer says the Greek word energeia means working, energy or efficiency. In the New Testament it is only used “of superhuman power, whether of God or of the evil.”

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are therefore all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

Christ didn't just defeat Satan 2,000 years ago, he defeated the demonic kingdom. Every demonic spirit was subjugated through the cross-work and placed in a place of spiritual restraint after the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The freedom and restriction that pertains to Satan permeates down through his subjects as he is the representative head. When the kingdom of darkness is described, it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is depicted as a triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world.

John Calvin rightly says, that Christ “teaches us not only that the tyranny of Satan was abolished by Christ’s death, but also that he himself was so laid prostrate, that no more account is to be made of him than as though he were not. He speaks of the devil according to the usual practice of Scripture, in the singular number, not because there is but one, but because they all form one community which cannot be supposed to be without a head.”

When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to only Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm. When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When they are finally punished they receive their punishment at the same time, albeit in the necessary order that Christ ordains (as we saw God judge in the Garden of Eden).

Revelation 12:9 shows the close linkage between Satan and his minions when they were banished from heaven after the man child was caught up to His throne: “the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:3- similar says: “behold a great red dragon, And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels.

Of course, Christ predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan in John 12:31-33, shortly before the cross: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were the decisive blows against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

All we have to do, is examine the fate of each in Scripture and we will quickly see a remarkable correlation.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The restraint of the kingdom of darkness stays in effect until just before the second coming, when hell’s legions are collectively released – for a short season at the end. The release of Satan, beast (mystery of iniquity), and demons (scorpions) all occur just prior to the second coming. This proves that the symbolism of Revelation relates to the here-and-now.

Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season.

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.” It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes.

After Satan's last throw comes the end! Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming and from the brightness of His glory (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally and wholly purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. This alleged future Premil millennial kingdom ends with the wicked overrunning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.

The beast in this explanation is not even a literal being. It does not represent any being at all. It represents the cohesive power of Satan at certain times. In the book of Revelation Satan is the only one ascending and descending into the pit. But the beast is not literally Satan. The beast just represents Satan's power.

Satan has power at certain times, and then looses that power, and then regains that power. The book of Job illustrates the temporary power that comes and goes for Satan.

Satan was never given any power between the Cross and the Second Coming. This is the part Amil seem to grasp. But they associate that lack of power with Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is not the binding of Satan's power. Satan himself is literally bound.

Satan demonstrated some power off and on in the OT. Satan was allowed to even tempt Jesus. So that power was noticeable during Jesus' earthly ministry. But Satan's power being limited does not mean Satan was also limited in the pit. All Satan can do right now and the last 1992 years is accuse the brethren night and day before God, seemingly non stop. That ability is not the same as Satan having power and authoritative control of any situations.

During those 42 months Satan is given power and Jerusalem is the seat of that power, hence Jerusalem riding in authority with Satan's power, yet the other 10 nations hating Jerusalem's central authority. Most Nations want self recognition. Armageddon will be the only point they really come together for 1 hour under Satan's power and authority.

Revelation 17 is the story leading to the failure of this power at Armageddon. This power will only exist for those 42 months, and only if those 42 months even happen. Only when the 7th Trumpet sounds, will be the reckoning when Christ the Prince confirms the Atonement Covenant to see if any souls are left to glean, after the final harvest. If there are no souls left to reject the mark, and choose to be beheaded, this power and 42 months will never happen.

No "Jobs" left on earth would be the symbolic explanation. As far as I can tell, the church is waiting in anticipation for many people left behind. In fact many claim there should be people like Job who in the end decide to get their head chopped off. Really not sure why? The church is to harvest souls into the church glorified at the Second Coming. Not to tell them to miss the rapture and wait so Satan can have power over them. Revelation 13 states Satan will be granted power to overcome them. That is the worse case scenario. Should not the message be that all are glorified, the best case scenario?

DavidPT said:

It seems to me, if Amil can prove that with Scripture, the debate between Premil vs Amil is over. Premil has the beast in the LOF during the thousand years. But if it is in the pit instead, that obviously contradicts Premil, thus Premil can't work. We know satan is in the pit during the thousand years because the text tells us so. We also know the beast is in the pit at some point if it ascends out of it at some point. Should we assume the pit doesn't even exist until the beginning of the thousand years, or that it does exist before the thousand years, but no one is ever cast into it until the beginning of the thousand years, thus it is empty before the thousand years?

As to the above, it doesn't matter if the pit is literal or not literal, those questions are still relevant even if the pit is not literal.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

In this passage we see the pit being opened and locusts emerging. It doesn't matter what these locusts might be, the point is, they are ascending out of the pit once it is opened, obviously implying they were imprisoned in the pit at an earlier time. This raises a cpl of questions. When were they initially cast into the pit and why were they? When are they released from the pit? We know it's during the 5th trumpet. But when is the 5th trumpet meaning, in relation to the thousand years? There are only 3 options. Is it meaning before the thousand years? During the thousand years? Or after the thousand years?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is obviously meaning at the beginning of the thousand years. As to these locusts in ch 9, and even the beast as well, where does this text ever show either of those being cast into the pit with satan in the beginning of thousand years? I don't see that in the text anywhere. The text indicates that satan is bound so that he should deceive the nations no more. Assuming the locusts are cast in when satan is, does that mean they too are cast in so that they should deceive the nations no more either? If the beast is cast in when satan is, is that so that it should deceive the nations no more either?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Does not verse 10 already have the beast and fp in the LOF when satan is loosed? Does any of the above also mention that the beast is loosed from the pit when satan is? Does any of the above also mention that the locusts are loosed when satan is?

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First, one has to understand
1. HOW Satan was bound,
2. WHEN He was bound, and
3. WHAT he was bound from.
In order to grasp that understanding, you have to be willing to entertain the Amil view of what we believe the 1000 years are all about, and that the duration of it is symbolic and NOT literal.
Why symbolic?
Jesus does not of the time of His Glorious return.
That decision is strictly in the hands of the Father.

DavidPT said:

The Amil view needs to be able to explain Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred who refuse to worship the beast, as to how that doesn't involve the 42 month reign of the beast, as to how that doesn't prove that the beast does not ascend out of the pit when satan does, but that it has already ascended out of the pit before satan does. But don't prove it with speculation, prove it with Scripture. Produce the Scripture that proves the 42 month reign of the beast is after the thousand years rather than prior to it. BTW, if one can prove with Scripture that the 42 month reign of the beast is after the thousand years, and that it doesn't contradict what is recorded in Revelation 20:4 concerning the saints martyred for refusing to worship the beast , the debate is also over as far as I'm concerned since that proves Amil and debunks Premil.

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Please don't go there. Amillennialists have repeatedly addressed this and you have repeatedly ignored it. That is how you deal with rebuttals that refute your position. Post #29 above exposes the Op.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's coming.

Secondly, the 42 months are simply an unrestrained intensification of what has been ongoing through the centuries. The beast has been wreaking havoc under different guises for long before the First Advent.

Thirdly, the function of the beast corresponds with the ongoing evil of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. The fate of both are closely tied together. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Fourthly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The millennium does not follow Rev 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Rev 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fifthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church under the Roman Empire, in the Middle ages under the persecution of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months is wrong.

Sixthly, the end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. there is good reason to connect Satan’s little season with the last 3.5 years (42 months/1260 days), found in Scripture. This does not demand a literal meaning in this most symbolic of books. This describes the final conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Satan and the beast will be loosed at the end to resist the people of God. That is when the restraint is simply removed. Right at the end, the kingdom of darkness is overthrown. So, the 42-month reign of the beast at the end and Satan's little season correlate. They are the same event.

DavidPT said:

No dispute with anything you have said thus far.



Still no dispute with what you have said.



Still no dispute with what you have said.



This is where there might be a dispute. Nowhere does it ever say Apollyon is one of satan's titles/name. But even if it was meaning him, so what? That doesn't prove he was in the pit when the locusts were, and that he ascended when they did. The text doesn't say one way or the other as to whether or not the king of the pit was imprisoned in the pit with the locusts. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. It's 50/50 odds then, unless some other Scripture can prove who is meant by Apollyon and can prove that he was or wasn't imprisoned with the locusts at the time. All I see you doing is speculating that satan is meant by Apollyon in order to make Amil more believable.



No dispute with any of this.



To this I agree to a degree. But we have to keep in mind, when John received his visions he indicated that the beast was 'is not', where I take that to mean it was in the pit, thus would be inactive the same way the locusts are inactive while imprisoned in the pit. John then indicated that it shall ascend out of the pit in the future. While it's in the pit, satan wouldn't be the source of it's power at the time since the beast would be inactive at the time. We can then know when the beast ascends out of the pit and is active again by comparing to Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred for refusing to worship it. And since we are told that in context involving the thousand years, there is only one logical place to place the ascension of the beast from the pit, that being before the thousand years begin. If you can get that to work with Amil somehow, you might be getting somewhere then.

This is all I'm able to respond to for now, or maybe I should say it is all I'm willing to for now, enough typing on my part already as is.

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1. You need to grasp the symbolism. The abyss is a spiritual prison for spiritual beings. It is not a physical geographical place. It is a spiritual state.
2. Revelation 9 proves demons are there right now. Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4 and Revelation 20 reinforce that.
3. This is before the coming of Christ.
4. The scorpion-like locusts are demons.
5, They have a king over them - "whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." These names mean destroyer. We know who owns that name. The kingdom of darkness has only one king - Satan.
6. The demonic realm is released from its spiritual prison before the coming of Jesus. This corresponds with Satan's little season (Revelation 20) and the removal of the restraint on the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2), thus corroborating Amillennialism.
7. It is their mission to torment and destroy before Jesus returns. This is the mission of demons in this day.

Until you see the spiritual symbolism, I doubt you are going to grasp the meaning of Revelation 9 and 20.

Douggg said:

Satan can't be three persons, as the fulfillment Revelation 16 by himself.

In Revelation 16:

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

out of Satan's mouth.
out of the beast's mouth.
out of the false prophet mouth.

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When did I say he could be? I didn't.

DavidPT said:

I have heard of Premils switching to Amil, but I have never heard of an Amil, meaning hardcore Amils such as yourself, who used to be Premil, switching back to Premil. That's basically what I had in mind when I said that. I wasn't suggesting that no Premil has ever changed their mind then switched to Amil. Clearly that has happened, you and SG prove that. I'm not denying that. That just wasn't what I had in mind when I said what I said.

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I'm not sure how it would make much sense to expect someone who switched to Amil to switch back to Premil again. I suppose it probably has happened, but it's unlikely for someone to switch their view multiple times.

Prove with Scripture that the beast is in the pit when satan is. If that can be proved with Scripture, not speculation, not with alleged logical deductions, but with Scripture, that would be the end of the debate as far as I'm concerned.

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I have tried to prove it with logical deductions that I make from Scripture. There isn't any scripture which explicitly states that Satan is in the pit at the same time as the beast, as I've already told you. So, why would you still ask for that?

To me, scripture overall teaches Amil. Sometimes explicitly, such as in the case of passages like John 5:28-29 (one resurrection event of all the dead), Matthew 25:31-46 (one judgment of all the dead at the same time) and 2 Peter 3:3-13 (all unbelievers killed at Christ's return) and sometimes implicitly.

Just because it's not always explicitly taught doesn't mean it can't be true. You believe the first resurrection refers to the bodily resurrection of all believers at the return of Christ. Is that explicitly taught in Revelation 20? Absolutely not. Yet, you still believe that. So, why do you require explicit scripture teaching that Satan is in the pit at the same time as the beast in order to believe that?

I have Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that proves that the beast ascends out of the pit before satan is loosed. What Scriptures do you have that disproves that, that trumps that?

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That verse proves no such thing. Only in your mind because of how you understand Revelation 13. I'm not obligated to agree with your interpretation of Revelation 13, so, from my perspective, you are not proving anything by referencing Revelation 20:4.

If you're understanding that Revelation 20:4 is talking only about those who are martyred by the beast in the last 3.5 years before the return of Christ, then tell me who the beast is. How can I be convinced of anything you say about the beast if you can't even identify who the beast is?

The beast "was" before John wrote the book of Revelation. What does that mean? What was the beast doing before that? The beast was in the bottomless pit as of the time John wrote the book of Revelation. What is your explanation of that? If you can't answer these questions then you can't expect me to take anything you say about the beast seriously.

DavidPT said:

The Amil view needs to be able to explain Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred who refuse to worship the beast, as to how that doesn't involve the 42 month reign of the beast

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Huh? Why would we need to do that? I don't even believe that. Just because you interpret the 42 months as 42 literal months that will occur just before the return of Christ doesn't mean everyone has to interpret it that way.

Produce the Scripture that proves the 42 month reign of the beast is after the thousand years rather than prior to it.

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Huh? Why would we do that when that would not line up with Revelation 20? Are you sure you're thinking this through carefully?

DavidPT said:

This is where there might be a dispute. Nowhere does it ever say Apollyon is one of satan's titles/name.

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Here you are again requiring explicit proof in order to be convinced of something even though you don't always require that. As evidenced by the fact that you conclude that the first resurrection is the bodily resurrection of all believers at Christ's returns even though that is not stated anywhere.

But even if it was meaning him, so what? That doesn't prove he was in the pit when the locusts were, and that he ascended when they did.

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You have to be kidding me. I believe you are saying this because of doctrinal bias. There is no logic at all in what you're saying. Why would the demons be in the pit, but not their king? Please explain how that makes any sense. Remember, God is the one who would be putting them there in the first place. So, explain why God would bind the demons, but not their king. That makes no sense at all. Why do you always need scripture to spell things out to you in order to be able to determine what it's saying? Actually, you don't, and I gave an example of where you don't require that earlier. You only do when it comes to things like this because you know what it means if Apollyon is Satan and he is loosed at the fifth trumpet.

The text doesn't say one way or the other as to whether or not the king of the pit was imprisoned in the pit with the locusts. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. It's 50/50 odds then, unless some other Scripture can prove who is meant by Apollyon and can prove that he was or wasn't imprisoned with the locusts at the time. All I see you doing is speculating that satan is meant by Apollyon in order to make Amil more believable.

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It is not just speculating. It is based on scripture. Who does scripture teach is the king of the fallen angels? Let's take a look and see.

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Would you agree that passages like these indicate that Satan is the king of all fallen angels? I think it's quite clear. So, it only follows that if the locusts represent fallen angels/demons then their king is the devil/Satan. There is no reason to think they have any other king besides him. He is called Abaddon/Apollyon in Revelation 9 because that term means "destroyer" and that is a character trait of Satan. Another name for the devil is Beelzebub.

Luke 11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

Notice how Beelzebub is referred to here as "the chief of the devils". That's Satan. Beelzebub is just another name for Satan. So is Apollyon. If you disagree, then the onus is on you to show that the fallen angels have a king/chief/leader besides Satan. You'll be hard pressed to show that since there is scripture showing Satan as being their king.

It figures that even if it was proven to you that Apollyon is Satan you would still resort to trying to say that Apollyon is not in the pit and is not loosed at the same time as the demons even though it makes no sense that only the demons would be in the pit but not their king as well.

To this I agree to a degree. But we have to keep in mind, when John received his visions he indicated that the beast was 'is not', where I take that to mean it was in the pit, thus would be inactive the same way the locusts are inactive while imprisoned in the pit.

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You assume it means they are inactive while Amils believe that they are restrained, but not completely inactive. Clearly, Revelation 9 implies that the locusts/demons are in the pit during the New Testament time period up until the fifth trumpet, so do you think demons have been inactive the past almost 2,000 years? I doubt that. So, why do you assume that symbolic locusts being in a pit represents demons being completely incapacitated?

John then indicated that it shall ascend out of the pit in the future. While it's in the pit, satan wouldn't be the source of it's power at the time since the beast would be inactive at the time. We can then know when the beast ascends out of the pit and is active again by comparing to Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred for refusing to worship it. And since we are told that in context involving the thousand years, there is only one logical place to place the ascension of the beast from the pit, that being before the thousand years begin. If you can get that to work with Amil somehow, you might be getting somewhere then.

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Why would Satan need the beast's help for only the last 3.5 years before the return of Christ after (supposedly) not needing its help for the previous 2,000 years? What has Satan not been able to do for the past almost 2,000 years that he'll be able to do with the beast's help for the last 3.5 years before the return of Christ?

Keeping in mind that God is the one who determines when someone or something is bound in the pit or not, why would God want to bind the beast and demons in the pit but not the dragon, Satan, at the same time as them?

DavidPT said:

The Amil view needs to be able to explain Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred who refuse to worship the beast, as to how that doesn't involve the 42 month reign of the beast, as to how that doesn't prove that the beast does not ascend out of the pit when satan does, but that it has already ascended out of the pit before satan does. But don't prove it with speculation, prove it with Scripture. Produce the Scripture that proves the 42 month reign of the beast is after the thousand years rather than prior to it. BTW, if one can prove with Scripture that the 42 month reign of the beast is after the thousand years, and that it doesn't contradict what is recorded in Revelation 20:4 concerning the saints martyred for refusing to worship the beast , the debate is also over as far as I'm concerned since that proves Amil and debunks Premil.

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For you to hold up any old target for me to "plink" at, isn't going to help, you, me or the grazing audience of this thread.
Just by a few of the words/phrases that you use, such as: "42 month reign", "The pit", "Saints martyred", need to be addressed separately.
From the "Amil" view, they have different scriptural understandings than what your mind is convinced of believing, through the view that you now hold to.