Can a skeptic on the fence have a personal encounter with God?

dcalling · Apr 12, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
Is it possible for a skeptic on the fence to have a personal encounter with God?

What would such an encounter look like?

What would a "personal relationship with God" look like?

If I'm a skeptic on the fence, is there anything in my power that I can do to "elicit" or "prompt" such an encounter? What would I need to do? And what could I expect to happen?

How would I be able to tell the difference between "God is actually having a personal relationship with me" and "I'm just deluding myself with wishful thinking"?

Can God make his presence and interaction "obvious" to me beyond reasonable doubt? Can God reveal himself to me, a skeptic on the fence, in a powerful and life-changing way?

In my experience God only do it in extreme situations (the conversion of Paul, or in heavily persecuted countries such as Iran).

Most of us have something that is less dramatic, to me it is a slow but constant "experiencing" of God. I know that after I became a Christian I am a changed man, the cross over change is instant but the rest of the changes is slow and gradual. There are a couple of times I feel I was let know of something that is going to happen, and did happen, although the chance of it happen naturally is very low, it is not a concrete example of God intervening.

Berserk · Apr 13, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
@Berserk, what are your thoughts on fasting? Should I give it a shot? Would I gain anything by doing it?

I have a ferocious appetite; so I have rarely fasted. But when I have, I experienced by far the spiritual highlights of my life, without which I doubt a natural skeptic like me would even be a Christian today. But I don't recommend fasting for you yet. Please explore the 10-day regimen I suggested first, taking notes on your lasting reactions and issues raised. I believe doing so will create the right kind of open curiosity, longing, and sense of wonder that God can use to communicate with you. I have a Harvard doctorate in biblical studies and Judaism; so I tend to live in my head too much. That said, I have learned that it is easier to feel your way to God than to think your way to God, despite the misleading dangers of reliance on feelings (wishful thinking, etc.).

FireDragon76 · Apr 13, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
By this I mean "other" than starting with the premise that Christianity on the whole somehow depends on an "Inerrant Bible."

However, here's the catch: "Other" also means realizing that Christianity on the whole may not always fail in the way that atheistic, sarcastic skeptics assert that it does.

"Other" also means that you'll have to remain open--or open up further if need be--to various philosophical issues. Maybe this is where you're already at? I have to ask since I don't know which fence you feel you're sitting on at the present moment.

There's a Zen koan from Japan that I think hints at what you are implying:

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

We live in a day and age where people are expected to have their own rigidly-held opinions about everything, instead of open-minded curiosity. However, curiosity is essential for understanding how a concept like God functions within a religion like Christianity.

FireDragon76 · Apr 13, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
I'm currently sitting on the fence that (1) the resurrection of Jesus may have been a historical fact, (2) God may possibly exist, (3) God may possibly be able to intervene in the real world and make his existence evident to me in some way, and even eventually get to the point of developing a whole personal relationship with me (although I'm not entirely sure what that would look like).

1) We have no direct access to the past to verify the resurrection accounts. Most historians of the period can say that something happened to raise the confidence of Jesus' early followers, but most fall short of saying exactly what happened, given the limited and conflicting accounts we have in the Gospels.

2) I think it depends on what you mean by "God". Certainly, the concept of God as an ontological gorund of being is more rational than saying that reality is groundless, that there's no underlying unity to our experience of the world.

3) Not all Christians believe that once you accept Jesus, everything becomes crystal clear. The Reformed tradition in particular, traditionally believed that a person's confidence about religious matters developed over time, and is more conducive to the kind of quest that @2PhiloVoid is discussing. The best way to pursue these questions is by actively exploring the religion through participation. Some churches are more or less open to that, and don't expect people to arrive with a fully-formed faith or sense of religious identity. Good examples would be in denominations like the United Methodists, Disciples of Christ, Presbyterian Church - USA, American Baptists, United Church of Christ, etc.

Divide · Apr 13, 2023

Berserk said:
I have a ferocious appetite; so I have rarely fasted. But when I have, I experienced by far the spiritual highlights of my life, without which I doubt a natural skeptic like me would even be a Christian today. But I don't recommend fasting for you yet. Please explore the 10-day regimen I suggested first, taking notes on your lasting reactions and issues raised. I believe doing so will create the right kind of open curiosity, longing, and sense of wonder that God can use to communicate with you. I have a Harvard doctorate in biblical studies and Judaism; so I tend to live in my head too much. That said, I have learned that it is easier to feel your way to God than to think your way to God, despite the misleading dangers of reliance on feelings (wishful thinking, etc.).

You make a very interesting point about our feelings and how some say not to rely on them and this is true to an extent I have discovered. Therein lies the confusion I think. We do have ineer perceptions that are technically not feelings or related to emotions, like intuition or a gut feeling or I knew it in my heart. Those are things that cause a reaction inside of us which are in actuality spiritual senses so are not feelings per se but we have no better way to describe them as except feelings because you do feel something.

About fasting, I wasn't suggesting for him to start with a 21 day fast, I was talking about Daniel! I've never fasted for 21 days! My longest fast was a 7 day fast. I started with a 24 hour fast from sunset to sunset. Then 3 days then 7 days!. One day I may be able to fast for 21 days!

Divide · Apr 13, 2023

I did a digital fast one time. Unplug the wifi, no tv screens at all, no phones. Shut everythig completely down.

It was the worst 30 minutes of my life!

Divide · Apr 13, 2023

A 7 day fast was much easier than I thought it would be. I only felt hunger pretty much for the first 3 days. WHen I would feel hungry I would drink down a tall glass of water. Helped a lot. Then no more hunger, only thirst but not bad. On the 3rd or 4th day, my pee turned very dark as my body was expelling toxins, then it cleared up again.

When you are hungry and there is no food in the tank to draw on the stomach only waits so long then starts burning cells for energy. It starts with all fat cells and toxic cells. You get detoxified both in body and spirit.

FireDragon76 · Apr 13, 2023

Divide said:
A 7 day fast was much easier than I thought it would be. I only felt hunger pretty much for the first 3 days. WHen I would feel hungry I would drink down a tall glass of water. Helped a lot. Then no more hunger, only thirst but not bad. On the 3rd or 4th day, my pee turned very dark as my body was expelling toxins, then it cleared up again.

When you are hungry and there is no food in the tank to draw on the stomach only waits so long then starts burning cells for energy. It starts with all fat cells and toxic cells. You get detoxified both in body and spirit.

That's not expelling toxins, that's more likely just burning ketones as fuel, something that happens if you are in a caloric deficit for more than a few days.

I wouldn't recommend any rigorous fasting. Simply abstaining from meat and dairy, and limiting your food intake, is going to be helpful for alot of people looking to fast for spiritual reasons. When you eat alot, it burdens your body, particularly your digestive system, and that can interfere with the ability to concentrate. That's why many contemplative religious traditions encourage fasting. Not to punish the body or for some esoteric reasons, but simply because excess food and calories isn't actually all that great for your mind.

oikonomia · Jun 18, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
Is it possible for a skeptic on the fence to have a personal encounter with God?

If you want Christ take Him to be everything you need.
Like this honest prayer - "Lord Jesus, I am on the fence. But You Lord Jesus are the only one absolute for God. I take You Lord. I take You to be all that I do not have."

SkepticOnTheFence said:
What would such an encounter look like?

It is so personal and tailor made, who can tell for sure?
With me it was a hyumbling of myself even as a little child.
With me it was FINALLY letting my proud self be subdued by the gentle yet unbeivably powerful love of the Lord Jesus.

SkepticOnTheFence said:
What would a "personal relationship with God" look like?

Your pride would go down. And you would rise, ascend, go up and sore.
In being humbled God would then exalt you.

It is a unique paradox.
God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

SkepticOnTheFence said:
If I'm a skeptic on the fence, is there anything in my power that I can do to "elicit" or "prompt" such an encounter? What would I need to do? And what could I expect to happen?

With me it was the amazing realization that He just wanted ME. He didn't want what I can do. He just loved me and wanted me.

That was the fact that alluded me for years. He lived me. I could come just as I am. It was me that He loves - not what I can do or think I can do for God.

SkepticOnTheFence said:
How would I be able to tell the difference between "God is actually having a personal relationship with me" and "I'm just deluding myself with wishful thinking"?

Can God make his presence and interaction "obvious" to me beyond reasonable doubt? Can God reveal himself to me, a skeptic on the fence, in a powerful and life-changing way?

2PhiloVoid · Oct 31, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
Is it possible for a skeptic on the fence to have a personal encounter with God?

What would such an encounter look like?

What would a "personal relationship with God" look like?

If I'm a skeptic on the fence, is there anything in my power that I can do to "elicit" or "prompt" such an encounter? What would I need to do? And what could I expect to happen?

How would I be able to tell the difference between "God is actually having a personal relationship with me" and "I'm just deluding myself with wishful thinking"?

Can God make his presence and interaction "obvious" to me beyond reasonable doubt? Can God reveal himself to me, a skeptic on the fence, in a powerful and life-changing way?

For my part, I'd first suggest that you simply jettison most of the modern myths that people have fabricated and foisted upon exactly "what an authentic experience with the Christian faith" should look like .......................................................................

...... then you might begin to get somewhere.

SkepticOnTheFence · Oct 31, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
For my part, I'd first suggest that you simply jettison most of the modern myths that people have fabricated and foisted upon exactly "what an authentic experience with the Christian faith" should look like .......................................................................

Can you please enumerate those "modern myths"?

2PhiloVoid said:
...... then you might begin to get somewhere.

What exactly do you have in mind when you say "somewhere"?
How do you get "there"?

SkepticOnTheFence · Oct 31, 2023

Berserk said:
Try this 10-day experiment:
Days 1 and 2: Throughout the day meditate on God's promise:
"When you search for me, you will find me, when you seek me WITH ALL YOUR HEART (Jeremiah 29:13)."
As you meditate, listen for the flow of thoughts that come to mind when you contemplate all your beliefs, attitudes, and questions that make you seek with strong reservations rather than with all your heart. Write them down as they come to mind, so you won't forget them.

Days 3 and 4:
(1) Now imagine Jesus as a courting Lover, who is stymied by all the unconscious ways you remain close-minded.
As you do, imagine what it might mean and feel like for you to be gloriously ambushed by Jesus when you least expect it.
Then listen for any imparted thoughts of psychological barriers you might be unconsciously erecting to prevent such a divine encounter.

Day 5 and 6:
Claim Jesus' promise quoted below: invite the risen Christ to fulfill His promise and enter the door of your heart in a way you can gradually or suddenly recognize:
"Listen! I [Jesus] am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come into you and feast with you, and you with me (Revelation 3:20)."
Now imagine what self-authenticating experience might satisfy the promised poetic image of feasting on Jesus' presence.

Day 7 and 8:
Jesus may not convincingly respond if He senses that you are merely looking for a spiritual high analogous to a drug high. His self-disclosure to you may depend on your willingness to surrender your life in obedience to Him, if He makes Himself real to you. So look within to see if you are honestly willing to make that surrender, should He make Himself real to your satisfaction. This would be the ideal time to confess sins and repent to prepare for the entrance of the Spirit of Christ into your life. Then when you feel ready, promise Him with all sincerity that you will make Him the Lord of your life, if He is willing to establish an intimate personal relationship with you. Monitor your experience for the next few days to see whether and how Jesus reacts to your pledge.

Day 9-10:
This 10-day process will stir up many feelings and questions, some of which will threaten the success of your quest. So after 10 days, create a new thread here detailing those feelings and questions and testifying to what happened to you as you embraced the process of this 10-day quest. Be assured I will respond to your thread. I am a retired Theology professor and United Methodist minister.

Hi Berserk. I'm back. I hope you are still around. I'm interested in executing this 10-day challenge. I'm actually on day two of the challenge right now, but I don't have much free time. I'm quite busy with work and other things. Is that a problem? Should I postpone the challenge until I'm on vacation?

2PhiloVoid · Nov 1, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
Can you please enumerate those "modern myths"?

ok.

1) That any of us can definitely get beyond the Divine Hiddenness problem and can know with sheer certainty that we have done so.

2) That any us of can (or should expect) to have what amounts to as a St. Thomas experience.

SkepticOnTheFence said:
What exactly do you have in mind when you say "somewhere"?
How do you get "there"?

Somewhere is simply a state of mind where you feel that on at least some minimal level, you perceive that Christianity is true and that Christ is worth following.

How did I get there? By not believing everything I heard or read from a multitude of competing voices.

SkepticOnTheFence · Nov 1, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
ok.

1) That any of us can definitely get beyond the Divine Hiddenness problem and can know with sheer certainty that we have done so.

2) That any us of can (or should expect) to have what amounts to as a St. Thomas experience.

This would be terrible news for Alex O'Connor (and for me). Watch this relatively short clip:

2PhiloVoid said:
Somewhere is simply a state of mind where you feel that on at least some minimal level, you perceive that Christianity is true and that Christ is worth following.

What specific "version" of Christianity are we talking about here? What would be a "minimal" version of Christianity? I'm asking because my expectations about what is possible and what can be expected to happen can change significantly depending on the theological commitments that are implied in the word "Christianity".

2PhiloVoid said:
How did I get there? By not believing everything I heard or read from a multitude of competing voices.

I'm not sure if I fully comprehend this. Are you saying, in other words, that you were able to believe X, by not believing A, B, C, D, E, F? I fail to see how belief in X follows from ceasing to believe other stuff. First of all, in order to cease to believe other stuff, you would need to discover reasons that undermine the previous reasons you had to believe other stuff (unless you never believed other stuff in the first place or some sort of doxastic voluntarism is true, which I'm skeptical of). Moreover, even if you manage to cease to believe other stuff, I don't really see how removing credence from "competing voices" (other stuff) can automatically increase credence in X, where X here would be "Christianity" (which, again, faces the problem of defining what "Christianity" means).

FireDragon76 · Nov 1, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
This would be terrible news for Alex O'Connor (and for me). Watch this relatively short clip:

What specific "version" of Christianity are we talking about here? What would be a "minimal" version of Christianity? I'm asking because my expectations about what is possible and what can be expected to happen can change significantly depending on the theological commitments that are implied in the word "Christianity".

I'm not sure if I fully comprehend this. Are you saying, in other words, that you were able to believe X, by not believing A, B, C, D, E, F? I fail to see how belief in X follows from ceasing to believe other stuff. First of all, in order to cease to believe other stuff, you would need to discover reasons that undermine the previous reasons you had to believe other stuff (unless you never believed other stuff in the first place or some sort of doxastic voluntarism is true, which I'm skeptical of). Moreover, even if you manage to cease to believe other stuff, I don't really see how removing credence from "competing voices" (other stuff) can automatically increase credence in X, where X here would be "Christianity" (which, again, faces the problem of defining what "Christianity" means).

"The heart has reasons that Reason doesn't know" - Blaise Pascal

SkepticOnTheFence · Nov 1, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
"The heart has reasons that Reason doesn't know" - Blaise Pascal

Could you please elaborate on how this addresses the questions and points I raised in my last post? What am I supposed to do based on this quote from Blaise Pascal?

FireDragon76 · Nov 1, 2023

SkepticOnTheFence said:
Could you please elaborate on how this addresses the questions and points I raised in my last post? What am I supposed to do based on this quote from Blaise Pascal?

It's impossible to appreciate religion from a rationalistic, analytical philosophical perspective that somebody like Alex is steeped in.

SkepticOnTheFence · Nov 1, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
It's impossible to appreciate religion from a rationalistic, analytical philosophical perspective that somebody like Alex is steeped in.

Well, actually Alex agrees with you. He literally said in the video that a religious experience (not an intellectual argument) would convert him to Christianity.

Margaret3110 · Nov 1, 2023

I think if you are seeking the truth and not just a sensational experience, then yes, it's possible. I was raised agnostic. My initial conversion experience wasn't as dramatic as Paul's experience, but it was somewhat dramatic I guess. I didn't fast or do anything like that. The thing is there will always be doubt and uncertainty as long as we are in this life with all its limitations.

SkepticOnTheFence · Nov 1, 2023

Margaret3110 said:
I think if you are seeking the truth and not just a sensational experience, then yes, it's possible. I was raised agnostic. My initial conversion experience wasn't as dramatic as Paul's experience, but it was somewhat dramatic I guess. I didn't fast or do anything like that. The thing is there will always be doubt and uncertainty as long as we are in this life with all its limitations.

What exactly did you experience that led you to convert to Christianity, if I may ask?

Can a skeptic on the fence have a personal encounter with God?

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