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I just have to wonder.... If I am an actual initiate of the Mysteries and according to you I do not fully understand or am not "high up" enough to know the TRUE nature of the mysteries, then how do you suppose that you, an outsider knows more about the TRUE nature and agenda of something that is soooo secret that it hides the truth about itself from its own members... yet you found this information on the internet....Hmmmmm very stealth indeed.
The individual opinions of 5 Masons (including yourself) do not mean anything
What matters is what they teach, not what any Mason thinks.
The very spirit of all of our lectures proves conclusively that when they were formulated they were designed to
teach pure trinitarian Christianity,
To clear vision, Christian and Masonic doctrine are identical in intention though different in method. The one says "Via Crucis"; the other "Via Lucis"; yet the two ways are but one way. The former
teaches through the ear; the latter through the eye
This is a lesson which Freemasonry
teaches. Charity and Brotherly Love is the foundation and cape stone, the; glory and cement of our ancient and honourable institution. If these principles be strictly inculcated in our Lodges, Freemasonry will become what it ought ever to bea beatific vision, leading, through its connection with Christianity, to a Grand Lodge in the skies, where the just exist in perfect bliss to all eternity; where they will be for ever happy with God the Great Architect of the Universe, and dwell to all eternity in the celestial bowers of peace and Brotherly Love. (The Theocratic Philosophy of Freemasonry, p. 171)
The authorities of Freemasonry are the Grand Lodges that disseminate Masonic education material to its disciples. Despite the fact that Christianity is the predominate religion in the U.S., NOT one Grand Lodge in this country has ever declared Masonic teaching as being Christian, like you and the 4 other Masons you quote have deluded yourselves into thinking.
No delusion here. The symbols are the teachers. Mackey says they were designed (in the blue degrees) to teach pure Trinitarian Christianity. The symbolism which is most easily seen throughout the blue degrees is the Christian interpretation. The one sacred book you will find directly quoted in Masonic ritual to the exclusion of all others, is the Holy Bible. Therefore, Mackeys claim does not appear to be in error at all. Ive not seen any Mason ever dispute Wilmshursts claim, nor Mackeys. Theirs being the strongest of the claims, I find that very significant. Considering the strength of what they claim, why would no one have challenged it in the 100+ years since they wrote them?
Even if they try to apply a Christian principle here or there, they are applying them to ALL disciples of Freemasonry, including believers, non-believers, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and other pagans. That alone is contrary to biblical teaching, no matter what 5 deluded Masons have to say about it.
How will you ever understand Freemasonry when you do not even understand Christianity? The Christian faith is declared again and again to be the one faith designed to be the religion of all, and will be the one under which the knowledge of God will cover the earth. How, then, do the principles espoused from the Bible in Freemasonry not apply to all men everywhere? And you err in your downplaying of the matter with the here and there comment. Masonic principles are directly based on the Bible, and completely in line with moral teachings found there.
And you incorrectly included one category in your list which does not belong there, unbelievers. Belief in God is an essential requirement before one may join Masonry.
Then let us imitate ourG. M. H. A. (Grand Master Hiram Abif) in all his varied perfection. Let us emulate his amiable and virtuous character, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust, that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Great Architect of the Universe presides, forever reigns. (emphasis removed)
There you go again, treating the symbolic as though it were literal. When will you ever learn? Did you never read Wilmshurst, so you might be better informed as to who that represents?
the Grand Master and Exemplar of Masonry, Hiram Abiff, is but a figure of the Great Master and Exemplar and Saviour of the world, the Divine Architect by whom all things were made, without whom is nothing that hath been made, and whose life is the light of men. If, in the words of the Masonic hymn"Hiram the architect
Did all the Craft direct
How they should build,"
it is equally true that the protagonist of the Christian Scriptures also taught universal humanity "how they should build" and reconstruct their own fallen nature, and that the method of such building is one which involves the cross as its working tool and one which culminates in a death and a raising from the dead. And, of those who attain their initiation and mastership by that method, is it not further written there that they become of the household of God and built into a spiritual temple not made with hands, but eternal and in the heavens and of which "Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone, in whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth unto an holy temple builded for an habitation of God?"
(Wilmshurst, Meaning of Masonry, 207-08)
Once again, a Christian context fleshes it all out perfectly.
The lamb has been deemed in all ages an emblem of innocence. He, therefore, who wears the lambskin as a badge of Masonry, is constantly reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, over which the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.
More on this one a bit later, you at least were given the biblical basis for the purity of life and conduct, in Psalm 24, Hebrews 12:14, and Revelation 21:27.
You seem to have missed the obvious: if you accept the statements by Mackey, Wilmshurst, Oliver, and Hutchinson, and allow that the symbolism is Christian, this piece actually works. The Lamb will easily represent Christ, and the spiritual rebirth represents the new birth insisted upon by Christ. Naturally, you will object, but what other system do you know that has a symbolic lamb and a spiritual rebirth besides Christianity? Even if you could, would it also have a "Lion of the tribe of Judah, who has prevailed to open the seven seals?" And the without blemish is straight from KJV Old Testament, dont see how you could miss it.The lamb has always been a symbol of innocence and sacrifice. There are two senses in which innocence is being used here: Innocence, in one sense, meaning free from moral defect; the other sense is that of being newly born and without blemish, in the sense of fulfilling the goal of Masonic initiationthat of spiritual rebirth.
And in this regard, all one need do to compare with what Ive stated about the four men whom Ive quoted, is consult Hutchinson. Seems like I recall a similar accusation being raised, having to do with the wording in the MM degree lecture that says:
Thus the Master Mason represents a man, saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith of salvation.
The original, of course, comes from Hutchinson, and the fuller quote of the original in the MM degree as found in Chapter Nine of Hutchinsons Spirit of Masonry reads:
Thus the Master Mason represents a man, under the Christian doctrine, saved from the grave of iniquity and raised to the faith of salvation. As the great testimonial that we are risen from the state of corruption, we bear the emblem of the Holy Trinity, as the insignia of our vows and of the origin of the Master's order. On receiving this ensign, the Mason professeth himself in a short distich, in the Greek language, which, from the rules of our order, we are forbidden to commit to writing; the literal meaning of which is, "Vehementer cupio vitam," - ardently I wish for life: meaning the everlasting life of redemption and regeneration; an avowal which carries with it the most religious import, and must proceed from a pure faith.
Once again, accept the stated interpretation of the symbols as Christian, and there is absolutely no problem with ANY of this. And on that foundation, I rest my case.
Yet the Bible teaches that redemption comes from Jesus Christ alone:
Not a problem: the cited passages, taken as Christian in their intent, present no challenge to that statement, and in fact proclaim the same. Seems like the only way to reconcile Christianity and Freemasonry is to take these men at their word, recognize the high esteem in which they are held in Masonry, and understand their mutual opinion concerning Christian interpretation to be valid, and the pieces of the puzzle fall into place.
I see you seem to have decided not to address post #121 in its entirety. So I guess we can assume its true. Unless you can provide clarification on the things you've said in the past on the matters indicated therein. For readers who missed it, here is the link for your convenience.
Readers who missed it are not as stupid as you presume.
I had good reason not to respond to that post in any way, because it contains a flat-out lie on your part, and you have not retracted it nor provided my requested support for your claim.
What you are trying to do now is an ages-old fallacy in any debate, trying to shift the burden of proof. You mention clarification on the things Ive said in the past. The fact is, YOU are the one who brought up things Ive said in the past, and YOU are the one who told lies in doing so. I challenged you on the point, and so far the only response you have given is to ignore it.
Since the burden of proof of the lie you posted rests on YOU, and not me, then first clean up your act and either provide direct citation that you feel supports your claim, or post a retractionat which point I will be more than happy to respond to anything found in the rest of the postnot that I havent already more than once in the past.
Until then, drop the self-absorption. Taking the low road, as you have done, never works very well when you try it on a high horse.
Psalm 24:3-4:So you are saying that purity of life is a REQUIREMENT for salvation, right pastor?
Well, thats ONE lodges definition. Lets take a look at what they WERE saying:The Apron is at once the emblem of purity and the badge of a Mason. By purity is meant blamelessness, a loyal obedience to the laws of the Craft and sincere good will to the Brethren; . .
The lamb has in all ages been deemed an emblem of innocence; he, therefore, who wears the lamb-skin as a badge of masonry, is thereby continually reminded of that purity of life and conduct, which is essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the celestial lodge above, where the Supreme Grand Architect of the Universe presides.
The lamb has, in all ages, been considered as an emblem of innocence and of peace. The Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, will grant to those, who put their trust in him, his peace. He, therefore, who wears the lamb-skin as the badge of masonry, is thereby reminded of that purity of life and conversation, which it is absolutely necessary for those to observe, who expect to be admitted into the grand lodge above, where under the presidency of the Grand Master of Heaven and Earth, they will for ever enjoy those "pleasures, which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things, which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Corinthians, ii. 9.
There are to be found throughout the Scriptures many allusions to the color as an emblem of purity. "Though thy sins be as scarlet." says Isaiah, "they shall be as white as snow. Jeremiah, describing the once innocent condition of Zion, says, "her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk." "Many," says Daniel, "shall be purified and made white." In Revelation, a white stone was the reward promised by the Spirit to those who overcame; and again, "he that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white garments"; and in another part of the same book the Apostle is instructed to say that fine Linen, clean and white, is the righteousness of the saints. The ancient prophets always imagined the Deity clothed in white, because, says Portal (Des Couleurs Symboliques, p. 35), white is the color of absolute truth, of Him who is; it alone reflects all the luminous rays; it is the unity whence all the primitive colors emanate." Thus Daniel, in one of his prophetic visions, saw the Ancient of days, "whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool."
The apron is made of lamb-skin, because the lamb has in all ages been recognised as the emblem of innocence, and was therefore chosen by God himself to be offered to Him in sacrifice, as a type of the great propitiatory sacrifice, the Lamb of Godthe Lamb without blemish and without spot that taketh away the sin of the world. The Mason's apron is, therefore, not only a symbol ever reminding him of the duty of maintaining to the utmost possible degree purity of heart and purity of life, and of ever seeking greater perfection in both, but also of the propitiation for sin, and the pardon ready to be granted to every one who seeks it in the way appointed. (Chalmers Izett Paton, Freemasonry, its Symbolism, Religious Nature, & Law of Perfection, 1873, p. 17)
As the white apron suggests the thought of purity of heart, so the white gloves symbolise cleanness of hands. And thus, by his clothing, the Freemason is ever reminded of that important lesson so often repeated with wonderful variety of expression in the Holy Scriptures. He may fitly call to remembrance, for example, the words of the 24th Psalm: " Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord ? and who shall stand in His holy place ? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully" (Ps. xxiv. 3, 4).
The connection between cleanness of hands and purity of heart is most intimate, for out of the heart are the issues of life. The tree must be good, that its fruit may be good. The same fountain cannot send forth sweet waters and bitter. All that is praiseworthy in moral conduct is required of the Freemason,"whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report " (Phil. iv. 8). (Paton, Ibid., p. 85)
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
He [Jeremy Taylor] was aware, that purity of heart and thought, could alone produce purity of life and conduct, grace for being gradually produced. (The Works of Hannah More, p. 185)
We may sum up the features of Christian life in its earliest environment as a moral ideal, coloured and modified by loyalty to the tenets of Judaism ; but issuing, under belief in the Messianic Jesus and by the power of His Spirit, in brotherliness, sympathy, love of enemies, heroic confession of faith, and purity of life. (James Hastings, Dictionary of the Apostolic Church, Vol. I, p. 201)
But though his [Hilary's] tone is buoyant and life in his eyes is well worth living for the Christian, he insists not merely upon a general purity of life, but upon renunciation of worldly pleasures. . (Philip Schaff, A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Chapter II, "The Theology of St. Hilary of Poitiers," p. lxxxviii)
For to this end was Christ born into this world; to this end lived he here among us; to this end preached he, and taught the people God's holy word, that we, by his example, and the doctrine of his gospel, should live an upright and holy life. And therefore Zacharias, that holy prophet, being filled with the Holy Ghost, prophesied and said, before Christ's birth, that Christ should for this cause appear in this world, That we, being by him delivered from the fear of our enemies, might serve him in pureness and holiness all the days of our life, Luke i. And St. Paul likewise saith, Eph. v. Ye were in darkness, but now ye are light; walk therefore as becometh the children of light. Therefore are we delivered from the power of darkness, saith St. Paul, that we should walk in the light, and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of
darkness. And so, 1 Thess. iv. God hath not called us to uncleanness, but to holiness and sanctity of life. Thus hath he called us, that we, not only in body but in soul, should be pure and unspotted. And therefore St. Paul unto the Romans, Know you not saith he, (chap, vi.) that all we which are baptized into Jesus Christ, are baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raise up from the dead, even so also should we walk in a new life. And for this cause this same Paul likewise saith, Rom. xii.
Show yourselves as quick and lively members. And, Give over your bodies for a sacrifice, holy and acceptable before God. And, 1 Cor. iii. Know you not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
These and many such other lessons has St. Paul given us, to call us unto pureness and holiness of life. Let us therefore, good brethren, live holily. Consider that God hath not called you to uncleanness, but to purity of life; consider, if ye be baptized with Christ into death, you must also walk with him in a new life; let your bodies be a sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God; show yourselves lively members of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Ghost. St. Paul saith, 1 Thess. iv. God hath called us, God hath appointed us to live in soberness, to live in pureness, to live in holiness; and this not in one part of our bodies, not in one part of our souls, but in our whole bodies, in our whole souls. (British Reformers: Writings of John Jewell, Bishop of Salisbury, "Sermon on Romans vi. 19," Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1843, p. 471)
I have remained and still remain of the same Presbytery. And although I have always enjoyed a full and free opportunity of being useful, (with one very serious exception,) I know myself to have been an unprofitable servant; have had my discouragements, darkness and doubts, and am less than the least of saints, and not worthy to be called a minister. Yet, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And by his grace I hope at last to finish my course and gain admission into that 'Temple not made with hands, eternal in heaven.' (Hamilton Woods, in "The Cumberland Presbyterian Church," The Presbyterian Historical Almanac and Annual Remembrancer of the Church, Vol. VIII, 1866, p. 306)
2. Our second text (Rom. i. 17) exhibits faith as working salvation from the evil which is in the world through lust. The chapter in which it stands presents an awful view of human nature. and implies that only faith in the gospel can bring us life in the form of Mental enlightenment of life as to the true God : Rom. i. 1923. Moral purity of life : Rom. i. verse 24, and onward. Spiritual life and communion with that which is divine and holy. Naturally men are dead and corrupt. The law reveals our death, see Rom. iii. 1020; but the gospel imparts spiritual life to those who receive it by faith. (C.H. Spurgeon, My Sermon-Notes, Part II. London: Passmore & Alabaster, 1885, p. 355)
PIETY. When we were young, and living at home with our friends, we were daily exposed to~innumerable vanities and follies, and were carried away by the flood of custom; yet being religiously inclined from our childhood, we, by degrees as we grew up, began to grow sick of our carnal education, and to despise the vanities and fooleries of the world, and sought for a place where we might be free of them, and where we might serve the Lord both night and day in all holiness and purity of life. (John Bunyan, The Pilgrim's Progress From This World to That Which is to Come, Oxford: Bartlett & Minton, 1823, p. 443)
The connection between cleanness of hands and purity of heart is most intimate, for out of the heart are the issues of life. The tree must be good, that its fruit may be good. The same fountain cannot send forth sweet waters and bitter. All that is praiseworthy in moral conduct is required of the Freemason,"whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report " (Phil. iv. 8). (Paton, Ibid., p. 85)
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
He [Jeremy Taylor] was aware, that purity of heart and thought, could alone produce purity of life and conduct, grace for being gradually produced. (The Works of Hannah More, p. 185)
We may sum up the features of Christian life in its earliest environment as a moral ideal, coloured and modified by loyalty to the tenets of Judaism ; but issuing, under belief in the Messianic Jesus and by the power of His Spirit, in brotherliness, sympathy, love of enemies, heroic confession of faith, and purity of life. (James Hastings, Dictionary of the Apostolic Church, Vol. I, p. 201)
But though his [Hilary's] tone is buoyant and life in his eyes is well worth living for the Christian, he insists not merely upon a general purity of life, but upon renunciation of worldly pleasures. . (Philip Schaff, A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Chapter II, "The Theology of St. Hilary of Poitiers," p. lxxxviii)
For to this end was Christ born into this world; to this end lived he here among us; to this end preached he, and taught the people God's holy word, that we, by his example, and the doctrine of his gospel, should live an upright and holy life. And therefore Zacharias, that holy prophet, being filled with the Holy Ghost, prophesied and said, before Christ's birth, that Christ should for this cause appear in this world, That we, being by him delivered from the fear of our enemies, might serve him in pureness and holiness all the days of our life, Luke i. And St. Paul likewise saith, Eph. v. Ye were in darkness, but now ye are light; walk therefore as becometh the children of light. Therefore are we delivered from the power of darkness, saith St. Paul, that we should walk in the light, and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of
darkness. And so, 1 Thess. iv. God hath not called us to uncleanness, but to holiness and sanctity of life. Thus hath he called us, that we, not only in body but in soul, should be pure and unspotted. And therefore St. Paul unto the Romans, Know you not saith he, (chap, vi.) that all we which are baptized into Jesus Christ, are baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raise up from the dead, even so also should we walk in a new life. And for this cause this same Paul likewise saith, Rom. xii.
Show yourselves as quick and lively members. And, Give over your bodies for a sacrifice, holy and acceptable before God. And, 1 Cor. iii. Know you not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
These and many such other lessons has St. Paul given us, to call us unto pureness and holiness of life. Let us therefore, good brethren, live holily. Consider that God hath not called you to uncleanness, but to purity of life; consider, if ye be baptized with Christ into death, you must also walk with him in a new life; let your bodies be a sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God; show yourselves lively members of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Ghost. St. Paul saith, 1 Thess. iv. God hath called us, God hath appointed us to live in soberness, to live in pureness, to live in holiness; and this not in one part of our bodies, not in one part of our souls, but in our whole bodies, in our whole souls. (British Reformers: Writings of John Jewell, Bishop of Salisbury, "Sermon on Romans vi. 19," Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1843, p. 471)
2. Our second text (Rom. i. 17) exhibits faith as working salvation from the evil which is in the world through lust. The chapter in which it stands presents an awful view of human nature. and implies that only faith in the gospel can bring us life in the form of Mental enlightenment of life as to the true God : Rom. i. 1923. Moral purity of life : Rom. i. verse 24, and onward. Spiritual life and communion with that which is divine and holy. Naturally men are dead and corrupt. The law reveals our death, see Rom. iii. 1020; but the gospel imparts spiritual life to those who receive it by faith. (C.H. Spurgeon, My Sermon-Notes, Part II. London: Passmore & Alabaster, 1885, p. 355)
PIETY. When we were young, and living at home with our friends, we were daily exposed to~innumerable vanities and follies, and were carried away by the flood of custom; yet being religiously inclined from our childhood, we, by degrees as we grew up, began to grow sick of our carnal education, and to despise the vanities and fooleries of the world, and sought for a place where we might be free of them, and where we might serve the Lord both night and day in all holiness and purity of life. (John Bunyan, The Pilgrim's Progress From This World to That Which is to Come, Oxford: Bartlett & Minton, 1823, p. 443)
Wayne said:Psalm 24:3-4:
3 Who may ascend the hill of the LORD ?
Who may stand in his holy place?
4 He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to an idol
or swear by what is false.
Hebrews 12:14:
14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Rev. 21:27:
27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Wayne said:The same may be found also in Samuel Coles’ Ahiman Rezon of 1817, Kentucky’s Masonic Constitutions (1818), Bradley’s Some of the Beauties of Freemasonry (1816), Parmele’s Masonic Mirror (1825), Hardie’s New Freemason’s Monitor (1818), Oliver’s Historical Landmarks (1846), and Jeremy Cross’s True Masonic Chart (1826). Thus the appearance and initial use of this particular lecture during that general time frame, is well established.
Since we're talking about symbolic interpretation, Grand Lodges do not "dictate" it at all. Interpretation is up to the individual, and I shared what some prominent Masonic individuals have shared by way of interpretation.You are attempting to deceive the readers by quoting the PERSONAL OPINIONS of Masonic authors that have written books that support YOUR PERSONAL OPINION about Freemasonry, rather than what Masonic authorities (Grand Lodges), who dictate Masonic teaching, have to say.
I take it your addition of "within the U.S." was intentionally designed to remove from consideration the Grand Lodge of Sweden, which requires Christian faith as a prerequisite for membership.And, to prove my point, you cannot cite one Grand Lodge source within the U.S. that supports your claims.
If you cannot quote a CURRENT Masonic source (1945 or later), then you are not only trying to deceive gullible readers here, you are deceiving YOURSELF. Show us this information in your CURRENT ritual of South Carolina. And, if you can't find it there, provide it from the CURRENT ritual of another U.S. Grand Lodge.
'The Colorado Craftsman or Masonic Monitor': "The lamb has been deemed in all ages an emblem of innocence. He, therefore, who wears the lambskin as a badge of Masonry, is constantly reminded of that purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, over which the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides."
There goes that term them pesky ritualists seem to be hung up on again, even in Colorado, huh?
I said nothing about myself at all, I'll leave the Narcissism to you. You really seem to love seeing your words in print, so much so that you read them to the exclusion of reading mine, apparently. Don't know how you could have made a gaffe like your most recent post, insisting that the very apron lecture quote you have addressed is "obsolete" and that "no Grand Lodge on the planet" currently uses it.So by quoting these passages, and a few supporting commentaries, are you saying that YOU have "clean hands," a "pure heart," and are "holy" pseudo-pastor?
There you go again, twisting my comments to make me say what I did not--in other words, lying.In other words, are you suggesting YOU are without sin?
Very simple: the verse you just quoted says nothing one way or the other about the question of purity, it speaks only of the common condition of humanity which is the starting point of every one of us, before we receive the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.If not, and you know the Bible says that ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory, then how do YOU expect to gain admission into heaven, since YOU insist its a REQUIREMENT?
Where do you get off throwing ME into the picture.how do YOU expect to gain admission into heaven, since YOU insist its a REQUIREMENT?
Wayne said:I take it your addition of "within the U.S." was intentionally designed to remove from consideration the Grand Lodge of Sweden, which requires Christian faith as a prerequisite for membership.
O.F.F. said:In other words, are you suggesting YOU are without sin?
Wayne said:There you go again, twisting my comments to make me say what I did not--in other words, lying.
What I addressed was the phrase "purity of life," or as it later came to be expressed in Christian theology, "purity of heart." Since Jesus suggested that "only the pure in heart shall see God," are you denying then what Jesus said? Jesus said in Revelation 21:27 that purity was a requirement for entry into the New Jerusalem, for He clearly stated that "nothing IMpure shall enter it." Are you then calling Jesus a liar? You seem to be, because you seem to be claiming one cannot be pure and thus cannot enter, while Jesus clearly said the pure in heart were blessed, "for they shall see God."
O.F.F. said:If not, and you know the Bible says that ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory, then how do YOU expect to gain admission into heaven, since YOU insist its a REQUIREMENT?
Wayne said:Very simple: the verse you just quoted says nothing one way or the other about the question of purity, it speaks only of the common condition of humanity which is the starting point of every one of us, before we receive the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans is an extended argument, Paul builds it and rebuilds it, crescendoing into the 8th chapter boldly proclaiming Jesus Christ as the solution to this horrible condition of impurity that separates us from God.
I take it that you should know, but apparently don't, that a SAID faith is not necessarily a REAL faith. Yet that (a mere profession of faith, without evidence) is ALL that is required from Sweden, and the Knight Templars for that matter. Moreover, YOU and most Masons and former Masons we know have practiced Freemasonry in the United States, which is a predominately Christian society. So let's stick to that Masonic domain and what it REQUIRES.
I did not lie, I simply took the sole Masonic position (which excludes Jesus Christ) of, "if a Mason lives a "pure life" they WILL gain admission into heaven," which is PRECISELY what the Apron Lecture tells ALL Masons, including those who REJECT Christ.
I think you are finally starting to get it, but you've missed a vital point from a Masonic perspective, which is why NO Christian should support it. Freemasonry DOES NOT acknowledge the grace of God as declared by Scripture (which is suppose to be its Great Light) that Jesus Christ is THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION.
And Freemasonry ignores the fact that it is HIS (Jesus Christ) PURE LIFE, which one is REQUIRED TO ACCEPT by faith and repentance from sin, in order to receive the amnesty and eternal privilege to go to heaven under God's terms, not that of the Masonic Lodge. Instead, its (Freemasonry) terms as stated in the Apron Lecture is THAT ALL MASONS merely have to live a "pure life" to earn salvation, since it insists that it is the ONLY REQUIREMENT to gain admission!
in other words, you and all other "professing Christian Masons" belong to an organization that claims that believers in false gods, and those who REJECT Christ as Lord and Savior WILL go to heaven as long as "they" live a "pure life."
How can anyone professing to be a Christian, let alone one who claims to be a pastor, defend such a position that is so contrary to biblical teaching be a genuine disciple of Jesus Christ?
ANSWER: It is biblically IMPOSSIBLE!
Are you still hung up on the idea that freemasonry offers some kind of path to salvation?
Seems like that's your only argument at this point... and it all seems to originate from a simple phrase that exists as part of a lesson about the apron.
Seriously? THAT's what you've ultimately boiled this all down to?
I take it that you should know, but apparently don't, that a SAID faith is not necessarily a REAL faith. Yet that (a mere profession of faith, without evidence) is ALL that is required from Sweden, and the Knight Templars for that matter.
Moreover, YOU and most Masons and former Masons we know have practiced Freemasonry in the United States, which is a predominately Christian society. So let's stick to that Masonic domain and what it REQUIRES.
I did not lie, I simply took the sole Masonic position (which excludes Jesus Christ) of, "if a Mason lives a "pure life" they WILL gain admission into heaven," which is PRECISELY what the Apron Lecture tells ALL Masons, including those who REJECT Christ.
Freemasonry DOES NOT acknowledge the grace of God as declared by Scripture (which is suppose to be its Great Light) that Jesus Christ is THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION.
The very spirit of all of our lectures proves conclusively that when they were formulated they were designed to teach pure trinitarian Christianity
I was neither sitting, standing . . ., naked nor clothed, shod nor barefoot.
-- A reason for such posture?
-- In regard one God one man make a very Christ, so one object being half naked half clothed, half shod half barefoot, half kneeling half standing, being half of all, was none of the whole, this shows a humble and obedient heart for to be a faithful follower of that just Jesus.
Are you totally unaware of what you just said, or simply not aware of what it means? You just stated that we accept this pure life of Christ "by faith AND repentance from sin." Repent means to "turn around," and while that is certainly a part of "accepting by faith," it is not always a one-shot deal, in fact, probably rarely so. It involves MANY turnings, and a walk that has a consistent pattern of turning from sin, recognizing God's requirement is a "pure heart."And Freemasonry ignores the fact that it is HIS (Jesus Christ) PURE LIFE, which one is REQUIRED TO ACCEPT by faith and repentance from sin, in order to receive the amnesty and eternal priviledge to go to heaven under God's terms, not that of the Masonic Lodge.
Hebrews also emphasizes the ethical aspect of sanctification. Sanctification/holiness is to be pursued as an essential aspect of the believer's life (Hebrews 12:14); the blood of sanctification must not be defiled by sinful conduct (Hebrews 10:26-31). Paul stressed both the individual's commitment to holy living (Romans 6:19-22; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 2 Corinthians 7:1) and the enabling power of God for it (1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:8). The summation of the ethical imperative is seen in Peter's use (1 Peter 1:15-16) of Leviticus 11:44; Leviticus 19:2; Leviticus 20:7: Be ye holy; for I am holy. See Ethics; Hebrews; Salvation. (Lorin L. Cranford)
The Lamb has in all ages been considered as an emblem of innocence and peace. The Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world, will grant to those who put their trust in Him, His peace. He, therefore, who wears the lamb-skin as the badge of Masonry, is reminded of that purity of life and conversation, which it is absolutely necessary for those to observe, who expect to be admitted into the Grand Lodge above, where under the precedency of the Grand Master of Heaven and Earth, they will for ever enjoy those pleasures, which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Corinthians, ii.9. (James Hardie, New Freemason's Monitor, 1819, pp. 140-41.)
In the early ages of the Christian church, a white garment was placed upon the catechumen who had been newly baptized, to denote that he had been cleansed from his former sins, and was henceforth to lead a life of purity. Hence it was presented to him with this solemn charge: Receive the white and undefiled garment, and produce it unspotted before the Tribunal of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you may obtain eternal life.
Mackey hit the nail right on the head, this was the proclamation made in the early church.THE WHITE GARMENT
On the person baptized the priest then puts a white garment, saying: Receive this white garment, which mayest thou carry unstained before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ; that thou mayest have eternal life. Instead of a white garment, infants, because not formally dressed, receive a white cloth, accompanied by the same words.
On sacraments, Catechism of the Council of Trent.
Source: http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Trent2.php
Then theres this witness to the same things:LAMB
In Ancient Craft Masonry the Lamb is the symbol of innocence; thus in the instructions of the First Degree: "In all ages the Lamb has been deemed an emblem of innocence." Hence it is required that a Freemason's Apron should be made of lambskin. In the advanced Degrees, and in the Degrees of chivalry, as in Christian iconography, or station, the lamb is a symbol of Jesus Christ. The introduction of this Christian symbolism of the lamb comes from the expression of Saint John the Baptist, who exclaimed, on seeing Jesus, "Behold the Lamb of God"; which was undoubtedly derived from the prophetic writers, who compare the Messiah suffering on the cross to a lamb under the knife of a butcher. In the vision of Saint John, in the Apocalypse, Christ is seen, under the form of a lamb, wounded in the throat, and opening the book with the seven seals. Hence, in one of the Degrees of the Scottish Rite, the Seventeenth, or Knight of the East and West, the lamb lying on the book with the seven seals is a part of the jewel.
LAMB, PASCHAL
The Paschal Lamb, sometimes called the Holy Lamb, was the lamb offered up by the Jews at the paschal feast, the Passover. This has been transferred to Christian symbolism, to Easter, and naturally to Chivalric Freemasonry; and hence we find it among the symbols of modern Templarism. The paschal lamb, as a Christian and Masonic symbol, called also the Agnw Dez, or Lamb of God, first appeared in Christian art after the sixth century.
This is depicted as a lamb standing on the ground, holding by the left forefoot a banner, on which a cross is inscribed. This paschal lamb, or Lamb of God, has been adopted as a symbol by the Knights Templar, being borne in one of the banners of the Order, and constituting, with the square which it surmounts, the jewel of the Generalissimo of a Commandery. The lamb is a symbol of Christ; the cross, of His passion; and the banner, of His victory over death and hell. Barrington states (Archaeologia ix, page 134) that in a Deed of the English Knights Templar, granting lands in Cambridgeshire. the seal is a Holy Land, and the arms of the Master of the Temple at London were argent, a cross gules, and on the nombril point thereof a Holy Lamb, that is, a Paschal or Holy Lamb on the center of a red cross in a white field.
A chief disdain of mine is any "Christian" pastor
Apparently, then, you refer to the Bible itself as "heresy," which is where I got the position I take on "purity." That is most DEFINITELY YOUR "own personal position."who supports such heresy, while insisting its not "his own personal position" at the same time.
Instead, its (Freemasonry) terms as stated in the Apron Lecture is THAT ALL MASONS merely have to live a "pure life" to earn salvation, since it insists that it is the ONLY REQUIREMENT to gain admission!
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:7-10)
"What doth the Lord require of thee, 0 man, but 'to do justly and love mercy and walk humbly with thy God.'" "And one of the elders sayeth unto me: 'Rejoice ye and be exceedingly glad-behold the Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed to open the book and to loosen the seven seals thereof," reminding us of two of the great symbolisms of Masonry - the white lamb-skin apron and the sprig of acacia.
The white apron, representative of the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world; the good Mason is constantly reminded by the ever living sprig of Faith in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah which strengthens him with confidence and composure to look forward to a blessed immortality and doubts not but that in the glorious morn of the Resurrection, his body will rise and become as incorruptible as his soul; and thus death is not a cessation of life, but only an incident in it. (“Memorial Service Program,” Texas)
"I now solemnly consecrate this lodge to the honor and glory of Jehovah, the Grand Architect of the Universe." (Monitor of the GL of Texas)
"It is therefore proper and in accordance with Masonic law and tenets for a Mason who believes in the Christ Jesus to offer prayers in the Lodge in His Name." (Masonic Code of Alabama)
"According to the grace of god which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I Have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (Murrow’s Masonic Monitor, Oklahoma)
"I am the resurrection and the life, saith the Lord. He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." (Funeral Service, Masonic Manual, GL of Georgia)
"However they may differ in creed or theology, all good men are agreed that within the covers of the Holy Bible are found those principles of morality which lay the foundation upon which to build a righteous life. . . . It is the one volume which has lived in the hearts of the people, molding and shaping their destinies; and it leads the waty to Him who is the Light of the world." (Louisiana Masonic Monitor)
"Wherein they [older forms of religion] were deficient [Masonry] found in the New Law of Love, preached by Jesus of Nazareth, and which He sealed with His blood." (Scottish Rite, 18th degree)
"My Brethren, this is the anniversary of that Last Supper of which Jesus of Nazareth partook with His humble disciples, after which He was betrayed and crucified.
"Who, of any creed, can picture to himself, unmoved, that noble and sweet countenance, which never looked on anything in anger, pale with agony, and streaming with tears? His back was torn by the lash, His bro pierced by the thorns. He suffered, willingly, until it seemed, even to Him, that His God and Father had forsaken Him.
"And yet, even then, bruised, hanged upon a cross, betrayed by one He loved, suffering and, for a moment, questioning, He still calls down not curses but blessings and a prayer for forgiveness upon those who had so treated Him." (Scottish Rite, “Maundy Thursday” ceremony)
in other words, you and all other "professing Christian Masons" belong to an organization that claims that believers in false gods, and those who REJECT Christ as Lord and Savior WILL go to heaven as long as "they" live a "pure life."
How can anyone professing to be a Christian, let alone one who claims to be a pastor, defend such a position that is so contrary to biblical teaching be a genuine disciple of Jesus Christ?
In fact, one Masonic "Rev" who frequents this site has gone on record as saying something to the effect that, "since Jesus never spoke about false gods in the New Testament, then there must not be any, but rather just simple misconceptions of the One True God."
No my friend, I'm not "hung up" solely on the fact that Freemasony offers a false plan of salvation. If you look at my last several posts, there are a number of issues that I have contention with.
The issue of "a plan of salvation" as taught by Freemasonry, does not stem from the Apron Lecture alone, but it is also Masonically presumed via the Common Gavel, Perfect Ashlar, and Third Degree Lectures as well. The biblical point is this, any "path of salvation" apart from Jesus Christ is a "false plan of salvation," from a biblical perspective -- Masonic or otherwise.
This issue of "salvation" is one of several "essential" doctrines of the biblically based, historic Christian faith. And, if someone claims to be a "Christian," which I know you do not, yet supports any other option than what Christ said of Himself, effectively deems Jesus a liar based on (click) John 14:6. It doesn't matter if those other options come from Osama bin Laden, Oprah Winfrey or a UMC pastor, they are heretical, period.
A chief disdain of mine is any "Christian" pastor (a supposed leader of the Church) who supports such heresy, while insisting its not "his own personal position" at the same time. That's just biblical nonsense; as far as I'm concerned.
However, the issue of a false "path of salvation" is one of many issues any genuine, biblically knowledgable Christian should have against the religious teachings of Freemasonry. Again, if you review my last 7 or so posts, you will see some of the other issues with which I personal contend with. All of these issues led me out of the Lodge to renounce the Masonic faith in favor of my Savior, Jesus Christ. These same issues should lead true followers of Christ, that are Masons, out of Freemasonry as well.
If not, I biblically cannot see how they can persist as Masons without being in deliberate rebellion against God, unless they are not genuine Christians to begin with.
Wayne said:And in case you think I've forgotten, and which I'm sure your heavy smokescreen has been intended to make the readers forget, I'm still waiting for your proof or your retraction of the following:
"In fact, one Masonic "Rev" who frequents this site has gone on record as saying something to the effect that, "since Jesus never spoke about false gods in the New Testament, then there must not be any, but rather just simple misconceptions of the One True God."
Wayne said:My own expression of it has been modeled on what I see revealed in word and example by the Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Jesus never spoke of "other gods," He only spoke of (1) people's incorrect concepts of who God is, and (2) those who did not serve God but served Satan instead. So I choose to address these things in like manner.
Wayne said:Since there is only One True and Living God, there is only one God who can POSSIBLY be prayed to. Who it is that all these people are praying to is not my call.
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