Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Rev Wayne · Dec 9, 2008

but to continue, i have already answered you claims of me putting myself in the place of a moderator. you seem to have this habit of pointing to one possibility and claiming that as the fact. perhaps you just didn't look in the right place for a remove account link, or perhaps floatingaxehead was removed from the site by an admin. as a christian, you should give people the benefit of a doubt, more particulariy so as a pastor.

I DID give the benefit of the doubt. But I did so by putting the issue to YOU, to see what conclusion YOU might make from it, and what did you conclude? You obviously concluded something negative, or you would not have responded negatively. I saw the possibility of the thing you concluded, but because I had already considered that which you thought was news to me when you returned with your next reply--that perhaps the fault was mine concerning the failure to find a deregistration option, that perhaps there was a FloatingAxehead at the time FA registered, that perhaps a FloatingAxehead could have been banned by the mods, etc. All those things occurred to me before I heard them from you, soI was willing to give the benefit of the doubt and not make any such accusation.

With YOU, on the other hand, it was a different story. Rather than give ME the benefit of the doubt, and figure that I had already considered what was OBVIOUS not only to me but to you as well, that other possibilities existed, you chose chose instead to immediately set in on me with accusations of accusing FA of lying. Where was YOUR willingness to "give people the benefit of the doubt?"

how dare you assume me to be a stupid, prideful, double-minded, person that would attack someone about one thing and then befriend them on another.

"Stupid, prideful, double-minded?" Being a bit facetious with this thing of putting words in my mouth, are you not? If you felt that way, you certainly didn't get it from me, for I never said it.

but now i demand an apology for what you said there. i don't care what you meant, i was definitely insulted by it.

I don't see in my post any place where I said anything about "attack someon about one thing and then befriend them on another." Nor do I see any place where I stated or even implied that you were "stupid, prideful, double-minded." Since those are your words, perhaps you really need to apologize to yourself, hence I refer you to the mirror mentioned in my previous post.

And since you accused me of not being willing to give the benefit of the doubt, and then clearly accused me of stating something I did not, it would seem to me you owed me an apology already, before any of this came up. I doubt I'll see one at this point, so let's just cut our losses and call it even, shall we?

more particulariy so as a pastor

Wow, talk about deja vu! Not very far back, someone said:

I've been here at CF for a little while and never see you anywhere but here in masonry threads. As a matter of fact, I see you being a little condesending to christians in defense of masonry.

I was immediately put in mind of a TRULY condescending person on these threads, and elsewhere on the internet, who is not only insulting and derogatory in practically every post, but even vowed on one occasion to stalk me all over the internet wherever he could find me. The "particularly so as a pastor" is a real echo of his whole demeanor here. From his posts throughout this thread, you could get a whole encyclopedia definition of "condescending":

your insidious apostasy,

pseudo-pastor

It's pretty sad when a 'Christian pastor'

You, pastor, are a LIAR

'the good Rev' prefers brutal dishonesty

absurd claims which "Christian" Masons regularly make

not genuine Christians

If a Mason, who claims to be a real Christian

shouldn't a real Christian resign

only thing misleading is you placing the title "Rev" before your name

Would a real pastor

Masons who claim to be Christians

Of course, this assumes they had at least an ounce of genuine Christian faith to begin with

Pastor, you need to get real and stop all the falsehood and misleading

You stand guilty as a pastor of lying

your insidious sinful behavior

As one who claims to be a Christian pastor

stubbornly refuses to cease from willfully transgressing the first commandment

the deception of Masonic supporters like you

Believe me, that's just a very small sampling of what at least one "Christian" here has dumped on me. So I'm afraid that, in the presence of the king of slam-dunk, I must decline any accolades for the Cunning Concoctions of Condescension Award, for he has won it hands down.

Floatingaxe · Dec 9, 2008

1 Corinthians 13:4-5
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Armistead · Dec 9, 2008

If they accept Christ anyone can be a Christian. However, I would think
a Freemason is a wonderful Christian. If you have a number for one, I need my brick wall fixed. I can't find any free masons around here, they all charge.

Rev Wayne · Dec 9, 2008

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Point understood, but there's very little I can do about the forum keeping a record of posts on this thread, which is where the previous post came from. Nor is there very much I can do about people's propensity for making frivolous accusations, other than to respond, as was done, with the perfect illustration by example of why the comment to which I responded was more than ironic.

But "record of wrongs?" That's a laugh. If that were true, I'd be tied up in knots over the things people do. Believe me, this forum, even the one poster to which I made reference, is a walk in the park compared to the ex-Mason gauntlet, as any Mason who has been there can attest.

No, I was only, as stated, illustrating for Jerry the very epitomy of what it is to be "condescending." Heck, some people even use Scripture in a condescending manner, quoting verses at you instead of simply making a comment. Everybody has their own methods, I suppose.

Rev Wayne · Dec 9, 2008

If you have a number for one, I need my brick wall fixed. I can't find any free masons around here, they all charge.

I'd be glad to oblige, if you will furnish the materials. But I make no guarantees on the success of your wall, or that anyone who sees it would call it that.

Armistead · Dec 9, 2008

Rev Wayne said:
I'd be glad to oblige, if you will furnish the materials. But I make no guarantees on the success of your wall, or that anyone who sees it would call it that.

Honestly I haven't studied the subject in detail, except watching it on the history channel. I take it your a Pastor or Leader in the movement.

Oh...I can only imagine who is asorbing the blows here....

Brennin · Dec 9, 2008

Rev Wayne said:
I was immediately put in mind of a TRULY condescending person on these threads, and elsewhere on the internet, who is not only insulting and derogatory in practically every post, but even vowed on one occasion to stalk me all over the internet wherever he could find me. The "particularly so as a pastor" is a real echo of his whole demeanor here. From his posts throughout this thread, you could get a whole encyclopedia definition of "condescending":

your insidious apostasy,

Believe me, that's just a very small sampling of what at least one "Christian" here has dumped on me. So I'm afraid that, in the presence of the king of slam-dunk, I must decline any accolades for the Cunning Concoctions of Condescension Award, for he has won it hands down.

I object to those attacks on you. I disdain freemasonry as occult nonsense but no one is perfect (myself included) and I'm not going to judge your "pastor-worthiness" based on your association with or interest in freemasonry.

Rev Wayne · Dec 9, 2008

I take it your a Pastor or Leader in the movement.

I wasn't quite sure how you meant that, but this sounds a bit like you took the username to have something to do with my involvement in Masonry, so perhaps if I may clarify: I am a Christian paster, have been for some time, I am serving in my 13th year as a United Methodist pastor.

I guess what I'm saying is, "I am a pastor," yes, and I am "in the movement," if "movement" is even a proper name for the Lodge, but if this was meant as "I am a pastor in the movement," as though Freemasonry had pastors or something, no, that is not the case.

PaladinofByzantium · Dec 9, 2008

Masonry does kind of seem to promote deism and relativism, particularly the Grand Orient lodges in France who were heavily influenced by the Enlightenment. Plus the writings of Albert Pike in regards to Masonry are kind of sketch too, and he was up there on the totem pole.

izarya · Dec 9, 2008

Technically, Master Mason is the highest degree. After that you move laterally, not vertically.

Rev Wayne · Dec 9, 2008

Masonry does kind of seem to promote deism and relativism, particularly the Grand Orient lodges in France who were heavily influenced by the Enlightenment.

Grand Orient Lodges in France are irregular or "clandestine," and are not recognized by any Grand Lodges in the U.S. In 1877, the GOF went berserk, removing the requirement for belief in a Supreme Being, removing the Bible from their altars, allowing women members, engaging in political activity, and dropping the use of Masonic ritual. When this happened, lodges everywhere quickly withdrew recognition. The Grand Lodge of France (GLF) is second largest in France, but is also an irregular lodge. In 1913, a group broke away to form the National Grand Lodge of France (GLNF), seeking to get the Lodge back to its historical foundations. Today it is third in size behind the other two, but it remains the only lodge recognized by any U.S. Lodges.

Keep in mind that when we speak of Freemasonry, we speak of those with historical roots that can be traced back to the foundation of Speculative Masonry with the union of several lodges to form the Grand Lodge of England in 1717 (which after a later merger became the United Grand Lodge of England, or UGLE). When you find things to which you object in lodges like the Grand Orient of France, don't be surprised when we chime in with you.

Plus the writings of Albert Pike in regards to Masonry are kind of sketch too, and he was up there on the totem pole.

Pike is "up there" only in the minds of accusers. When accusers began citing Albert Pike for the first time a few years back, most Masons were like, "Who?" Pike's ideas were written over a century ago, they are not that interesting to Masons really, and I find them to be indifferent to Pike. What he wrote was for Scottish Rite, meaning it does not even apply in the least to most Masons at all, who never have gone through that appendant branch of Masonry. Add to that mix, the total misunderstanding of Pike by some accusers, and the deliberate distortion of Pike by others, and you have to wonder what the fascination is with something that can hardly be used as a yardstick by which to measure Freemasonry in the first place.

Rev Wayne · Dec 9, 2008

Masonry does kind of seem to promote deism and relativism

Click to expand...

I dont think relativism fits Masonry at all. The basic definition of it is:

A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them. (thefreedictionary.com)

In fact, this is essentially the conceptual opposite of what Masonry teaches. In relativism, moral concepts are not fixed, they are mutable, and they vary according to which group is teaching them. The Masonic concept of moral values is that they are fixed, and that a central core of these fixed values are common to all monotheistic religious systems. These fixed concepts are what Masonry claims to teach.

As for Deism, one of the best counters to that claim can be found here:

At the first introduction of the candidate we find that his morality has been a primary Masonic qualification, but this alone has not been deemed a sufficient voucher. Before an atom of Masonic information is vouchsafed to him, assurance has to be given that his religious conceptions are of such a nature as will enable him to appreciate Masonic teaching. It has been well said that a Christian must first be a Theist, so says Masonry regarding its candidates. A Deist believes in a God, it is true, but he does not believe we possess any knowledge of Gods attributes, whereas the first declaration required from a Masonic candidate is that he believes in the efficacy of prayer to God. This primary condition is worthy of notice, for in it lies the essence of Theism. The Masonic requirement is emphatically that the candidate shall believe that God will hear and answer prayer, which necessarily involves some conception of God, or of his attributes. A Freemason is thus, perforce, in the first instance a Theist. (Josiah Whymper & William James Hughan, Religion of Freemasonry, p. 94-95)

god's_pawn · Dec 9, 2008

Rev Wayne said:
I DID give the benefit of the doubt. But I did so by putting the issue to YOU, to see what conclusion YOU might make from it, and what did you conclude? You obviously concluded something negative, or you would not have responded negatively. I saw the possibility of the thing you concluded, but because I had already considered that which you thought was news to me when you returned with your next reply--that perhaps the fault was mine concerning the failure to find a deregistration option, that perhaps there was a FloatingAxehead at the time FA registered, that perhaps a FloatingAxehead could have been banned by the mods, etc. All those things occurred to me before I heard them from you, soI was willing to give the benefit of the doubt and not make any such accusation.

With YOU, on the other hand, it was a different story. Rather than give ME the benefit of the doubt, and figure that I had already considered what was OBVIOUS not only to me but to you as well, that other possibilities existed, you chose chose instead to immediately set in on me with accusations of accusing FA of lying. Where was YOUR willingness to "give people the benefit of the doubt?"

looking back i see i was wrong, but you seemed to make note of the fact that the name didn't exist and then you left it there rather then making note that that wasn't necessarily conclusive evidence. therefore i apologize for making such an assumption, but perhaps you could make it a little more clear next time?

"Stupid, prideful, double-minded?" Being a bit facetious with this thing of putting words in my mouth, are you not? If you felt that way, you certainly didn't get it from me, for I never said it.

I don't see in my post any place where I said anything about "attack someon about one thing and then befriend them on another." Nor do I see any place where I stated or even implied that you were "stupid, prideful, double-minded." Since those are your words, perhaps you really need to apologize to yourself, hence I refer you to the mirror mentioned in my previous post.

And since you accused me of not being willing to give the benefit of the doubt, and then clearly accused me of stating something I did not, it would seem to me you owed me an apology already, before any of this came up. I doubt I'll see one at this point, so let's just cut our losses and call it even, shall we?

the responce above i gave because of this statement "Feigning the part of protector after going full guns after her for her bold print, seems a bit disingenuous at best on your part." can you honestly deny that that was not a form of insult? i therefore gave an explantion of my actions to defend myself. I personally will take responsibility for what i said and formally apologize for it. it doesn't matter what i said, it's how you took it. if you are asking for an apology i will grant it, i only ask that you do the same for me. each of us owing the other an apology does not cancel the other out. i gave you the apology you asked for, can't you do the same for me? i am sorry that you had to make the assumption that i wouldn't give you an apology, even after i gave floatingaxe one for attacking her bold type. i make it a point to apologize when necessary, i hope you'll remember that. i have nothing against the people here which includes you. my continuation to discuss these things was only because i wanted to correct misunderstandings (a major pet-peeve of mine), and to defend myself from faulty accusations

Wow, talk about deja vu! Not very far back, someone said:

I was immediately put in mind of a TRULY condescending person on these threads, and elsewhere on the internet, who is not only insulting and derogatory in practically every post, but even vowed on one occasion to stalk me all over the internet wherever he could find me. The "particularly so as a pastor" is a real echo of his whole demeanor here. From his posts throughout this thread, you could get a whole encyclopedia definition of "condescending":

your insidious apostasy,

Believe me, that's just a very small sampling of what at least one "Christian" here has dumped on me. So I'm afraid that, in the presence of the king of slam-dunk, I must decline any accolades for the Cunning Concoctions of Condescension Award, for he has won it hands down.

i'm not sure if this was quoted correctly when i clicked quote but you know what you wrote so i'll leave it there. i wasn't trying to be condescending, i was being honest. i regret saying it now but there it is. i was going to comment further but i'll just leave it there. i doubt it will accomplish anything at this point.

again, i formally apologize for any transgressions i have made upon you here for all to read. i hope you will accept this and that we may post further without fear of this needing to occur again. God bless.

Armistead · Dec 9, 2008

Rev Wayne said:
I wasn't quite sure how you meant that, but this sounds a bit like you took the username to have something to do with my involvement in Masonry, so perhaps if I may clarify: I am a Christian paster, have been for some time, I am serving in my 13th year as a United Methodist pastor.

I guess what I'm saying is, "I am a pastor," yes, and I am "in the movement," if "movement" is even a proper name for the Lodge, but if this was meant as "I am a pastor in the movement," as though Freemasonry had pastors or something, no, that is not the case.

Sort of like me being in the moose lodge with a twist. Has it helped you in your ministry or is it just a past time. Simply, do the two connect for you. It was very a interesting show on the history channel.

My wifes grandfather was a Freemason and a wonderful Christian man. He helped build and start a lodge in our area.

Floatingaxe · Dec 9, 2008

Armistead said:
Sort of like me being in the moose lodge with a twist. Has it helped you in your ministry or is it just a past time. Simply, do the two connect for you. It was very a interesting show on the history channel.

My wifes grandfather was a Freemason and a wonderful Christian man. He helped build and start a lodge in our area.

I'll bet if he knew the sinister truth found in Masonry, he, as a wonderful Christian man would abandon Masonry immediately. The thing is, the truth of it is subtle at the lower levels, but the higher level folks are held to a vow to keep the truth from the lower levels.

It's sick.

god's_pawn · Dec 9, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
I'll bet if he knew the sinister truth found in Masonry, he, as a wonderful Christian man would abandon Masonry immediately. The thing is, the truth of it is subtle at the lower levels, but the higher level folks are held to a vow to keep the truth from the lower levels.

It's sick.

please tell us: what is the sinister truth found in Masonry?

Floatingaxe · Dec 9, 2008

god's_pawn said:
please tell us: what is the sinister truth found in Masonry?

Ultimately it is the embracing of the god of this world by enslaving oneself to the oaths of Masonry and all it stands for---denial of God as the One True God and source of all truth. As a non-mason, and as most masons, we don't know firsthand what the upper echelons teach, unless one breaks free and tells.

Basically, it is an occultic, Satanic religionclub that requires men and women to make oaths to even commit murder.

Would a Spirit-filled believer ever really consent to make an oath like this and think He was honouring God?

"I do promise and swear upon the Holy Bible never to reveal where I have received this degree . . . and in failure of this I consent to have my body opened perpendicularly and to be exposed for eight hours in the open air, so that the venomous flies may eat my entrails, my head to be cut off and put on the highest pinnacle of the world, and I will always be ready to inflict the same punishment on those who shall disclose this degree and break this obligation. So may God help and maintain me. Amen."

Christianity is just not compatible.

Floatingaxe · Dec 9, 2008

Charles Finney, the famed evangelist whom God used to bring a revival in America in the 1830's, in his book, FREEMASONRY wrote (Pg.115), "Surely, if masons really understood what Masonry is, as it is delineated in these books, no Christian Mason would think himself to remain at liberty to remain another day a member of the fraternity. It is as plain as possible that a man, knowing what it is, and embracing it in his heart, cannot be a Christian man. To say he can is to belie the very nature of Christianity."

http://www.cuttingedge.org/free004.html

Armistead · Dec 9, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
I'll bet if he knew the sinister truth found in Masonry, he, as a wonderful Christian man would abandon Masonry immediately. The thing is, the truth of it is subtle at the lower levels, but the higher level folks are held to a vow to keep the truth from the lower levels.

It's sick.

Maybe they have to take the time to learn and work for greater truths of the group, rather than it just be given....I don't know. But many groups are like this, such as our CIA, Armed Services, ect.

Obvious for him and his church it's not a problem with his service to God.

We all anything that doesn't fit your truth is sick....that's a mute issue for us.

Floatingaxe · Dec 9, 2008

Armistead said:
Maybe they have to take the time to learn and work for greater truths of the group, rather than it just be given....I don't know. But many groups are like this, such as our CIA, Armed Services, ect.

Obvious for him and his church it's not a problem with his service to God.

We all anything that doesn't fit your truth is sick....that's a mute issue for us.

No, it really is sick.

Can a Christian be a Freemason???

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