Can a Christian be a Freemason???

Floatingaxe said:

Denial, denial, denial. Your responses are typical of a freemason.

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And yours are typical of an anti-mason... see, generalizing is easy!

BTW... you still haven't provided any sources for your nonsensical claims.

Hi there Sphinx777,
can a hippy turn down free skunk & and Woodstock DVD? But seriously I can't see a problem for any Orthodox Christian denominations also practicing free masonry as well, as they don't believe a single word of the Holy scriptures anyway so practicing more anti-scriptural nonsense won't make a jot of difference accept where of course the lodge rights split families up but then again church denominations often do a good job of that too. So I guess there ain't much difference both serve the king of Babylon.

As to free masonry being practiced by a called out chosen elect true Christian, a christ of The Christ,... well they wouldn't even entertain it.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
That's a big 'IF' Sphinx777 so the answer is no a chosen elect Christian will not practice anything other than the following of Christs ordinances as revealed to them by God's Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Amen.

Drwhat said:

Hi there Sphinx777,
can a hippy turn down free skunk & and Woodstock DVD? But seriously I can't see a problem for any Orthodox Christian denominations also practicing free masonry as well, as they don't believe a single word of the Holy scriptures anyway so practicing more anti-scriptural nonsense won't make a jot of difference accept where of course the lodge rights split families up but then again church denominations often do a good job of that too. So I guess there ain't much difference both serve the king of Babylon.

As to free masonry being practiced by a called out chosen elect true Christian, a christ of The Christ,... well they wouldn't even entertain it.

Mt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
That's a big 'IF' Sphinx777 so the answer is no a chosen elect Christian will not practice anything other than the following of Christs ordinances as revealed to them by God's Holy Spirit dwelling within them. Amen.

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Ummm.... what?

Masonic oaths are not only frivolous, they are rash. They are rash, because Masons are told to repeat each word of the oath as they are being told to them, never knowing what they are about to say prior to reciting them.

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Before a Mason joins the Lodge, he has developed a relationship of trust with one or more men who are already members. The ritual serves only to increase that level of trust, as the candidate from the very first entry into the lodge has to trust in a companion who guides him, and is told to “follow your guide, and fear no danger.” So there is quite a bit he will not know, and it’s not just the oaths. But you are wrong in claiming “they do not know what they are about to say prior to reciting them.” I know one man who told me he knew beforehand every single thing that was going to take place in every degree he ever took. I knew exactly what the Blue Degree oaths said, nearly word for word, having seen it online long before ever joining the lodge. I also knew that it was only symbolic, and is intended only to heighten the solemnity of the event, and to further stress the idea that confidentiality about one’s companions and their personal business, is an important practice.

They are frivolous, because they are told that the penalty of the obligation is not to be taken literally, and has never literally been carried out; and they never will. So if the consequence for failing to keep a Masonic vow is frivolous and not intended to be kept, then the oath itself is frivolous, since violating the vow is of no consequence.

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Nice little sleight of hand with this one, you had me thinking for a minute there I’d never figure out which coconut shell you hid the answer under. It took me a bit there, before I realized you do not HAVE the answer. Let me point out what’s wrong with your logic on this one. You acknowledge that the Masonic oath is not literal, and is not intended to be carried out, and that it never will be. But then you turn right around and somehow make the inference from that acknowledgment, that by its not being literal, thus, by whatever strange quirk of logic it happens, it is “frivolous.” Nothing could be further from the truth. The basic equation for what you just claimed is:

“not literal” = “frivolous.”

Yet they are not frivolous in the least, because they are symbolic and they DO have meaning, and the Mason taking the oath DOES intend to carry out the oath. You have tried to turn this thing entirely on its head with your game of switcheroo. It’s the PENALTIES that the Mason knows are not to be carried out, not the OATH. The key issue in what Jesus said about vows, was the fact that people were taking the vows while they knew without a doubt that they had no intention of carrying out what they promised. That is NOT the case with Masonic oaths; in fact, the symbolic penalties are, as already stated, for the express purpose of INCREASING the sense of solemnity and seriousness about one’s promises.

Furthermore, former Masons who left the Lodge for Christ, are not obligated to an oath which was rendered to us under false pretenses. As far as we Ex-Masons for Jesus are concern, the oaths which we took are null and void. God has released us from them.

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False pretenses? I’m not so sure on that one, since you have witnessed to being influenced by John Ankerberg at the time. His slyly-concocted lies and half-truths are well-known, and well-documented as well, by (among others) De Hoyos and Morris’ “Is it True What They Say About Freemasonry?” It’s more like you released yourself from them, or did so with Ankerberg’s help, or whatever.
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And no, you were not given the oaths “under false pretenses.” If so, who was pretending, and what were they pretending? Are you playing another semantic game with this one, and deciding that since you have determined that the oaths are “frivolous,” and since someone gave you oaths containing penalties which were not intended to be carried out, that somehow THAT constitutes “false pretenses?” I think you have forgotten one thing, if that is the case: you, like every Mason who has ever taken the oaths, knew they were symbolic before you ever took them, and you knew they were never actually carried out. Therefore, you didn’t take any oath under any “false pretenses,” because you and they had a mutual understanding that the penalties were symbolic.

Leviticus 5:4-6 makes it clear that when something is hidden from a man (in this case, the fact that the teachings of the lodge violate God's Word) and he takes an oath thoughtlessly, he is guilty of sin. When he recognizes it as sin (which we have) he may be released from it by confessing it as such and claiming the promise found in 1 John 1:8-9; "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.

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The teachings of the Lodge are FOUNDED on God’s Word, not in "violation" of it. You have never established this claim in any way, so don't proceed as though you may presume it to be so. And the biggest error you make (if it is indeed an error and not intentional) is in claiming that the Mason “takes an oath thoughtlessly.” The very nature of the oath and the atmosphere in which it is given and taken, prevents its being done “thoughtlessly.” That being so, then you have reneged on oaths you took before God, and have bought into the devil’s lies against the lodge, by which he has duped gullible, unsuspecting “Christian apologists” into perpetuating.

Would a real pastor insult a person by displaying their screen name in such a derogatory fashion.

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Yes, if he were making a point with it, and if he had made the point otherwise and had been ignored, which I was. Floatingaxe has continually claimed a biblical basis for speaking against Freemasonry. The message I was sending with that was, if one is so smug in their own biblical interpretations to the point they feel they can label other Christians as “satanic” or belonging to a “cult,” then how sure is that person’s claim of biblical knowledge when they can make a complete error like that one? The idea of it being an “axe” floating, IMO, takes away from the biblical witness of the event, especially if the axe were manufactured according to the design of the one in the picture accompanying her posts. We give enough ground to scoffers against the Word already, without opening the door for someone to set forth the "explanation" that it was no miracle, because the wood simply kept the iron axehead afloat. The fact that it was an axeHEAD and not a whole axe is a significant point in that story, if it were not, it would not have specifically stated it so. A floating axe is not nearly so miraculous as a floating axehead.

But besides that, what is so improper about insisting upon maintaining a correct and proper exegesis and interpretation of the Word? Do you all of a sudden have a problem with my insisting on biblical TRUTH?

You're calling her "unbiblical" as if to say, she's not a Christian, but instead an unbeliever.

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I’m saying nothing about her at all. “Floatingaxe” is not her name. If it is, she must have some really weird parents.

You're just shoveling smoke, anyway. The clearest evidence I was not doing what you have claimed:

Theology can be "unbiblical"
Ideas can be "unbiblical"
Interpretation can be "unbiblical"
Arguments about theology, ideas, or interpretation can be "unbiblical"

But PEOPLE can NOT! The only way you could suggest I said they were, would be if someone were asserting that a certain person was in the Bible, and I were to reply they were not. (But even then, it would be kinda weird to use "unbiblical" to describe it; I'd be more likely to say they're "not in the Bible.")

Quit yanking my chain with this nonsense and stick with real debate before I tag you for engaging in ad hominem personal attacks yourself. It’s an old and worn-out tactic you’re doing, always steering the conversation around to try to justify accusations leveled at me for the most asinine and trivial stuff. It never accomplishes anything, and never serves any useful purpose. Why you can’t enter any discussion without resorting to it almost immediately, is totally beyond me.

Your actions are not only unethical; they are a clear violation of this site's rules.

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Like I said, the lady’s name is not “Floatingaxe,” nor is it “Floatingaxehead” either. My comments were clearly confined only to the fact that the story is about an AXEHEAD that floated rather than an AXE, they quite clearly were not intended personally. And I just as clearly ASKED her about the axehead and was ignored, before I ever entered that particular post.

Besides, if anyone should object, it should be HER, not YOU. You would do well to confine your comments to matters at hand, and quit trying to make hay with your pretense of me picking on the poor defenseless female, and you playing big brother protector. You used to do that same little song-and-dance all the time over at the EMFJ forums, I have not forgotten that, and you were not the only one. It's part of the ad hominem to which the accusers inevitably resort, for lack of arguments or substance to their claims: anything at all to create any kind of impression they can spin, in order to try to put a Mason in a bad light. Not that the same thing is going on over here, but your current nonsense resembles the same practice we saw there.

The religious teachings of Freemasonry are unorthodox to biblical Christianity. The site administrators have enough spiritual discernment to recognize this, hence their placing this topic in the "Unorthodox Theology" section they created at the time. I believe it's also located in "Non-Christian Religion" section as well; because that too is where it belongs.

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The site administrators also have enough spiritual discernment to see that in answer to the OP, yes, a Christian may be a Mason. And at the same time as the rule you cite was created, another one stated that Christian Masons would be allowed to use Christian icons and would be allowed to post in the Christians Only sections of the forum.

But I’m curious: are you now trying, after assuring me that Masons could post and were posting on this thread, and inviting me to come join in the conversation, that Masons should not be here on this thread/in this section??

If so, then what was this invite all about anyway, was it a baited trap on your part?

(I hope you don’t intend to deny this, I still have the PM.)

This thread belongs in Unorthodox. In other words, moderators---get it outta my face. Pretty please.

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Wouldn't it be simpler just to visit some other thread? Or, since you are not the only one clamoring about this particular point, is it really more accurate to say, the accusers have not fared too well in the current debate (once again), and are simply trying to make "much ado about nothing" on the assumption that if they cause enough commotion, they can cause a thread closure, once again assuring that the REAL truth about Freemasonry, which refutes their claims, will not get a chance to see the light of day on at least one more thread?

Well, I don't sing like Caruso,
And I'm not number one,
And if you don't like my singing,
Just put your needle on some other song.
--Roy Buchanan, "Caruso," from the album "A Street Called Straight

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O.F.F. said:

This is true; and Masonic oaths are not only frivolous, they are rash. They are rash, because Masons are told to repeat each word of the oath as they are being told to them, never knowing what they are about to say prior to reciting them. They are frivolous, because they are told that the penalty of the obligation is not to be taken literally, and has never literally been carried out; and they never will. So if the consequence for failing to keep a Masonic vow is frivolous and not intended to be kept, then the oath itself is frivolous, since violating the vow is of no consequence.

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What are you rattling on about? You indicate that you are an ex-Mason yet I get the impression you know little about the fraternity.

O.F.F. said:

The religious teachings of Freemasonry are unorthodox to biblical Christianity.

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I question you integrity. As someone who poses as an ex-Mason you would know that there are two topics which are forbidden in Lodge - religion and politics. If the topic of religion is forbidden you might like to attempt to explain how then Freemasonry 'teachings' are anything.

The bottom-line is, the false teachings of the Masonic Lodge are heresy; plain and simple.

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The bottom line is that you are clutching at straws in order to justify your hatred. I can understand why you are no longer a Mason - you demonstrate little honesty and even less love.

The teachings of the Lodge are FOUNDED on God’s Word, not in "violation" of it.

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That's the biggest falsehood of all, and thousands of men and women are actually buying it! But those who are, are very unknowledgeable in the word of God to begin with.

It is actually a false religion that takes a person away from faith alone in Jesus Christ, and adds assent to other religions which do not worship God. Masonry is absolutely the wrong thing for a truly committed Christian to align himself or herself with!

You find lukewarm or mere cultural Christians in freemasonry, but you don't find Spirit-filled, mature believers there, as they would be obedient to the voice of God telling them to get out--which they are doing, thanks be to God.

Yes, it has it's own type of bible--rules, regulations, religious dogma.

Ah, yes, it does, the Masonic Heirloom line of Bibles. But they are King James, and are no different than any other King James Bible, except in the front and back material on various Masonic matters. Perhaps it would be in order to post some of the theology expressed in the description of various terms in the front of the Bible, and terms found in the glossary in the back:


ABHORRENCE OF EVIL:

Required of all true Masons.

ALL-SEEING EYE:

A perpetual and permanent symbol in the Lodge and work of Freemasonry, signifying the omnipresence and omniscience of God.

ASCENSION:

Christ's final departure into Heaven. Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9, 10. Ascension of dead in Christ. I Thess. 4:13-18.

BIBLE—sacred book of Christendom:

Masons accept this Book and believe in it as the Law of God, as the Great Light of Freemasonry. It is an open Book on the altar during the work of the Lodge, and certain appropriate passages are used for the different Degrees. To American Masons, the Holy Bible is a necessary furniture of the Lodge and at the same time a Great Light.

CHURCH:

An assembly of Christian believers gathered together for the purpose of worship. The church was instituted at Pentecost by the coming of the Holy Spirit. It also denotes the whole body of believers in Christ.

COMMUNION:

A term used in the OT showing the relationship between God and His people. A deeper relationship was established through Jesus Christ. This relationsip is remembered in the observance of the Lord’s Supper called Communion.

CONFESSION:

Acknowledgment to God of one’s sins.

CORNERSTONE:

In the erection of Solomon's Temple, one stone that was neither oblong nor square was brought to the builders. The workmen were bewildered by this stone which appeared to be irregular and of no use, and therefore rejected it, casting it into the rubbish. Later, it was discovered that this was the keystone, or copestone, and that it was absolutely necessary for the building. It was sought out and placed in its proper position as the head of the corner. Masons are to be careful that the stone rejected by the Jewish buildrs of the kingdom of God be not rejected by them.

CREATION:

Freemasonry recognizes Jehovah God as the great architect of the universe, as the creator of all things, both material and spiritual; and it accepts the account of creation given in the Book of Genesis and confirmed by other Scriptures. To a Mason, the earth and the heavens declare the glory of God.

CROSS:

An ancient instrument of inflicting death in the most cruel and shameful way. After the crucifixion of Christ, it became the Christian symbol of redemption. Also, the word was used by Jesus to mean the suffering and death that men must bear. Deut. 21:23; Gal. 3:13; Matt. 10:38; 27:32-50.

FATHER:

The title by which God is distinguished as being the Father of the Lord Jeus Christ and of all his true disciples.


FATHERHOOD OF GOD:

Masonry believes that man is the offspring of God by creation, that God made mankind all of one blood, and that God is by virtue of His creation of man and of His goodness to him, his Father. When this filial relationship was marred by sin, Jesus Christ made full provision for its restoration.

FLOOD:

Occurred approximately 2500 B.C. and was a judgment upon the world for the wickedness of mankind. The wickedness of this age was compared by Jesus to conditions at the time of his Second Coming.

GOD:

The Scriptures are full of the truth that there is only one True God. In the OT, God revealed himself to the Hebrews in various ways. In the NT, God revealed himself in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son. Ex. 3:2-6; Deut. 6:4; Acts 17:27-29; I Cor. 8:4-6.

GOLDEN RULE:

This sublime and unique rule of conduct in man’s relation to and treatment of his fellowman spoken by the Saviour has been adopted by Freemasons, and it is used with its full significance in all the ramifications of human actions.

GOSPEL:

The glad tidings of salvation through Jesus Christ.

GRACE: The free and undeserved love and favor of God toward man as a sinner.

GREAT WHITE THRONE:

This term refers to the pure and glorious throne of God. Before it, every knee must bow and every tongue must confess that Christ is God to the glory of the Father.

HOLY SPIRIT:

The presence of the Holy Spirit is constantly associated with the birth and life of Christ and the work of His disciples.

INTERCESSION:

Prayer in behalf of others. Christ is our intercessor or Advocate. The Holy Spirit also makes intercession.

JEHOVAH:

A title of the Supreme Being. Its meaning is similar to the title I AM. It denotes the God of redemption.

JESUS CHRIST:

The name Jesus means Saviour, derived from the ancient Hebrew, Jehoshua, found only in the NT and should be applied exclusively to Christ. The title CHRIST means anointed, consecrated, sacred, and is used only for the Messiah, who came in fulfillment of prophecy. The whole of OT history took on a new and deeper meaning with His coming. He was born in Bethlehem into an ordinary Jewish family from Nazareth. The person, life, and the work of Jesus are the subject of the whole NT (and in prophecy of the OT), and as a whole, are the historical and doctrinal foundation of Christianity. Matt. 1:1, 21; 16; 13:20; 26:71; John 1:17, 20:31; Acts 2:36.

JUSTIFICATION:

An act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous because of the atonement of Christ. Faith is the only means of justification. Rom. 3:23; 4:25.

KINGDOM OF GOD:

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN:

These terms denote the blessedness of the followers of Christ, partially attained in this life and perfectly in the world to come.

LAMB:

A title given to the Lord Jesus Christ as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of his people. Its innocence and gentleness made the lamb an example of such qualities in the Saviour. In John 21:15 “lambs” means disciples of Christ. (Rev. 5:6, 8, 12, 13).

LIGHT:

Throughout the ritual and work of Freemasonry, light is the symbol of knowledge, and just as God spoke into existence physical light, so he is the original source of all true knowledge. The great light of Masonry is his inspired Word. Masons are pledged to strive after more and more light as life goes on and should seek above all things light eternal.

LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH:

In the tribal benediction pronounced upon Judah, the “lion’s whelp” is used emblematically of strength; hence, the ensign on the banner of Judah was a lion. The phrase in the Masonic ritual, “The lion of the tribe of Judah,” is Messianic and refers to Christ, the anointed of God and royal head of God’s Kingdom.

LORD'S DAY:

Since the time of the apostles, the first day of the week has been kept sacred by Christians in commemoration of the resurrection of Christ. Rev. 1:10.

LORD’S SUPPER:

This was instituted by Christ on the night preceding his crucifixion. It is a memorial of Christ’s atoning death and a visible token of Christian fellowship. (Matt. 26:19-30; I Cor.11:23-26).
LOVE:

The perfect exercise of love includes our whole duty to God and our fellowman. The love of God to man is manifested in Jesus Christ.

MEDIATOR:


One that interposes between persons who are at variance for the purpose of reconciling them. It is a title for Christ, who is the only mediator between God and man. (I Tim. 2:5, Heb. 12:24).

PEACE ON EARTH:

The principles and tenets of Freemasonry and the teachings of the symbols and legends of the Fraternity are conducive to “peace on earth and good will to men.” Due recognition is given to the truth that only as the Prince of Peace reigns in the hearts and lives of men can the world ever have real peace.

RAISED:

“Raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason” refers to the final symbolic ritual of the Third Degree celebrating our faith in the final resurrection of our bodies, to the divinely revealed truth that these vile bodies shall be fashioned into the likeness of the risen and perfected and glorified body of the Lord Jesus Christ.

SACRIFICE:

In the OT was the killing, burning and sometimes killing of an animal at the altar. Part of it was offered to God, part eaten by the priest and part by the worshiper. A sacrifice was presented to God as a gift, as an act of thanksgiving, devotion, repentance or payment of vows made to God. The perfect sacrifice was made through the perfect Saviour, Jesus Christ, offered once only and for all. (Ex. 3:18, 40:29, Heb. 13:15, 21

SALVATION:

Deliverance from temporal evils or earthly destruction. God is figuratively called “salvation” in Ps. 27:1. In the NT, it denotes the deliverance from sin and death through faith in Christ. (Ex. 14:13; Matt. 1:21).

SOUL, SPIRIT:

The ancients supposed the soul to reside in the breath. The immortality of the soul is a fundamental doctrine of revealed religion. The patriarchs lived and died, persuaded of the truth and it was in the hope of another life that they received the promises. To save the souls of men, Christ gave Himself freely to death.

SPIRITUAL TEMPLE:

Freemasonry draws many sublime lessons and reduces many worthy truths from the symbolisms of the building of King Solomon’s Temple, as well as from operative Masonry and architecture respecting the more important superstructure of moral, ethical, and spiritual components known as the spiritual temple. The building of this temple is in vain without divine aid; in fact, it must be built of God as the Chief Architect, and all the material that goes into it must pass His inspection and approval.

STONE THAT THE BUILDERS REJECTED:

In the erection of Solomon’s Temple, one stone that was neither oblong nor square was brought to the builders. The workmen were bewildered by this stone which appeared to be irregular and of no use, and therefore rejected it, casting it into the rubbish. Later, it was discovered that this was the keystone, or copestone, and that it was absolutely necessary for the building. It was sought out and placed in its proper position as the head of the corner. Masons are to be careful that the stone rejected by the Jewish builders of the Kingdom of God be not rejected by them.

ST. JOHN THE BAPTIST:

Masons honor St. John the Baptist as the forerunner of the Messiah and Saviour. The names of the holy St. John the Baptist and the holy St. John the Evangelist are reverently associated in significant rituals of the Masonic Fraternity.

VEIL OF THE TEMPLE:

This was the curtain or partition which separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. It served as a constant reminder to the Hebrew worshipper that only the high priest, and he only once a year after having made proper atonement for his own sins and for sins of the people, was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies. As a result of the atonement of Christ in His death on the cross, this veil was rent and destroyed, and through Him as high priest an open door into the heavenly sanctuary has been prepared for all true worshippers.

WORD:

In all its varied and several uses, the term WORD symbolizes Divine Truth. The search for the Word in any sense means ultimately the search for truth. The whole system of speculative Masonry is, in its essence, the search for truth. The written Word of God holds a pre-eminent place in all the degrees of Masonry and in all its teachings.

Floatingaxe said:

That's the biggest falsehood of all, and thousands of men and women are actually buying it! But those who are, are very unknowledgeable in the word of God to begin with.

It is actually a false religion that takes a person away from faith alone in Jesus Christ, and adds assent to other religions which do not worship God. Masonry is absolutely the wrong thing for a truly committed Christian to align himself or herself with!

You find lukewarm or mere cultural Christians in freemasonry, but you don't find Spirit-filled, mature believers there, as they would be obedient to the voice of God telling them to get out--which they are doing, thanks be to God.

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Can I start placing bets on the number of wild claims you're going to make in your next post? I think an over/under of 7 would be a pretty safe bet for the house.

Ok, ok... seriously though... do you have ANY source for ANYTHING you just said?

Tell you what, how about just citing your reason for thinking "[Freemasonry] adds assent to other religions which do not worship God".

Or how about your reason for saying this, "[Freemasonry] is actually a false religion"...

I'll look through the thread again, but I'm fairly certain that you have yet to post a SINGLE source for any of your claims.

Floatingaxe said:

That's the biggest falsehood of all, and thousands of men and women are actually buying it!

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Well, Freemasonry is a fraternity so its membership is not open to women. (I accept that there is a sorority of Freemason but they do not come under the umbrella of United Grand Lodge of England).

Falsehood? Interesting in while claiming to be a Christian you obviously fail to appreciate the meaning of such words as honesy, integrity, truth, justice, honour, virtue, mercy, prudence, temperance, fidelity, love, to name some of the virues that form part of Masonic ritual.

Part of the charge delivered to a newly made Mason goes -

To you, as a Freemason, I would first recommend the most serious contemplation of the Volume of the Scared Law (Bible) charging you to consider it as the unerring standard of Truth and Justice and to regulate you actions by the Divine precepts it contains. Therein you will learn those most important duties you owe to God, to your neighbour and to yourself.

Yes, I can see the difficulty you are faced with.

But those who are, are very unknowledgeable in the word of God to begin with.

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Bad, Bad Masons - all of whom seem to be more knowledgable in the word of God than yourself!

It is actually a false religion

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How so? Because you say as much?

You find lukewarm or mere cultural Christians in freemasonry, but you don't find Spirit-filled, mature believers there, as they would be obedient to the voice of God telling them to get out--which they are doing, thanks be to God.

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Are you a feminist aiming your axe at men and Freemasonry is in your present line of sight?

Falsehood? Interesting in while claiming to be a Christian you obviously fail to appreciate the meaning of such words as honesy, integrity, truth, justice, honour, virtue, mercy, prudence, temperance, fidelity, love, to name some of the virues that form part of Masonic ritual.

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Knowing Jesus Christ brings forth those qualities, some of which are literally fruit of the Spirit. None of them can be ritualized!--which is a crass mockery of such Godly qualities. You are pushing Freemasonry as a church--it is a church alright, and its god is Satan only.

You are pushing Freemasonry as a church--it is a church alright, and its god is Satan only.

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There are 3 things wrong with this claim:

(1) Lack of corroboration.
(2) Lack of corroboration.
(3) Lack of corroboration.

Floatingaxe said:

Knowing Jesus Christ brings forth those qualities, some of which are literally fruit of the Spirit. None of them can be ritualized!--which is a crass mockery of such Godly qualities. You are pushing Freemasonry as a church--it is a church alright, and its god is Satan only.

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I count 5.... house wins!

Knowing Jesus Christ brings forth those qualities, some of which are literally fruit of the Spirit. None of them can be ritualized!--which is a crass mockery of such Godly qualities.

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This is a crass mockery of what Masonry says, which is no different than Peter says:

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. (2 Peter 1:5-7)

Apparently, even though these things are on a list of spiritual fruits (Gal. 5:22), they are not strictly spiritual fruits, but may be added by "giving all diligence." It would be a strange notion to try to "add spiritual fruits" in this manner. And many of them ARE fruits of the Spirit, nor would it be any different with the ones you add by "giving all diligence," for "it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." I see, just right off the bat, goodness, godliness, love, and self-control, which are definitely spiritual fruits. Interesting, too, that "self-control" would be a "spiritual fruit," and yet it is. Don't know what you'll do with that one.

Can't help but notice the accusers here have been conspicuously quiet about what I posted from the Master Mason edition of the Heirloom Bible. I sure don't see anything there that looks like "its god is Satan only." Maybe you can enlighten us?

Looks a lot more like pretty solid Christian theology found there in the study materials. Christ is described as the "anointed of God," "the Cornerstone," "the Stone that the builders rejected," the "only begotten Son," "Saviour," "God," "Intercessor or Advocate," "the atoning sacrifice for the sins of His people," "Lion of the tribe of Judah," "Royal Head of God's Kingdom," "the only Mediator between God and men," the "Prince of Peace," the "perfect Saviour," and "Messiah."

The theological points appear sound: the veil was rent "as a result of the atonement of Christ in His death on the cross," the building of our inner temple is "in vain without divine aid," Christ "gave Himself freely," "to save the souls of men," we have "deliverance from sin and death through faith in Christ," "the love of God to man is manifested in Jesus Christ," "faith is the only means of justification," God is "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "Creator of all things," and "the life of Jesus Christ" is the "historical and doctrinal foundation of Christianity."

Maybe you can point out how this stuff suggests to you "its god is Satan only?"

And since you talk about the things Masonry teaches, and offer unsupported criticisms, maybe you can point out exactly why you would have a problem with the following things which Masonry actually DOES teach:

Why are "brotherly love, relief, and truth; three pillars of beauty, wisdom, and truth; the importance of being able to keep a confidence; taking care of widows and orphans and keeping oneself unspotted from the world (James 1:27); loving one's neighbor as oneself; faith, hope, and love; being diligent in work and not slothful; patience, humility, and every positive virtue" to be rejected, in your estimation?

No ungodly fraternity can bring about such qualities in a man--only Jesus Christ can

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Well, thank the Lord Jesus that Freemasonry is not ungodly, and that I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, so I don't have to worry about this.

Jesus Christ is far from such a group.

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Sorry, I haven't seen your evidence; and you just got an eyeful of mine, directly from the Heirloom Masonic Bible's glossary definitions. Examination of the things above reveal them to be theologically accurate. There are many Christian members, so the statement you just made is way off.

Interesting, too, how you can decide who is Christian and who is not, by long distance and without any contact, and how you can claim to be so knowledgeable about things that happen in places which you have never entered, nor could even if you tried.

Floatingaxe said:

No ungodly fraternity can bring about such qualities in a man--only Jesus Christ can...and Jesus Christ is far from such a group.

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4! House wins again!

Jester4kicks said:

4! House wins again!

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I have no idea what you are going on about.