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Can a Christian be a Freemason???

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Rev Wayne

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Do you know what this quote reminds me of?
I can tell you what it SHOULD remind you of:



The quote is a lie, it is part of the Leo Taxil hoax, it never existed in the first place. The ones who are posting this fabrication all over the internet, for the most part, are deliberately spreading lies, because they themselves know that Leo Taxil made full confession to the entire incident and all that he created in association with it. The supposed letter just cited is a part of that hoax, and deserves to be exposed here for what it is, just as it was exposed over a century ago by Taxil's own admission.

"He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44)

For further information, check out the following link:

Pike and Mazzini
 
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Floatingaxe

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Lots of back-pedalling going on.

Freemasonry is a major contributor to the failure of many churches today from becoming what they set out to be. God withdraws His hand and ear from those congregations whose shepherds have allowed them to become diluted and polluted by having Freemasons as members.

More ultimatums are needed. They need to be identified and given the choice: Jesus Christ and His Church or Freemasonry and its church, run by Satan.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Are you saying that if someone misquotes or misrepresents Albert Pike, they are the devil?...as though Albert Pike is the one who speaks truth?

That quote you gave is regarding the TRUTH of the Bible.

I think you are confused as to what the TRUTH is...and it's not found in Freemasonry.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Are you saying that if someone misquotes or misrepresents Albert Pike, they are the devil?...as though Albert Pike is the one who speaks truth?
Nice try at re-framing, but you aren't fooling anyone with your "misquotes or misrepresents," because this was not even a "quote" at all, therefore it is impossible for that which was never a quote to begin with, to be "mis"-quoted. The meterial that was posted is a complete FABRICATION that came out of the convoluted mind of Leo Taxil, a vagabond and ne'er-do-well of the 19th century, who created an elaborate hoax involving both Freemasonry and Roman Catholicism, with the intent of embarrassing the Catholic Church. Leo Taxil was caught at it and when it became evident to him that the Catholic Church was preparing to prosecute him for his actions, he quickly lined up some press people, set up a public meeting to which he invited them, and made a full and detailed confession of his actions, all the while characterizing his actions as the mischievous pranks of an overgrown boy. This action probably did prevent any legal action, but it certainly gained him no favor with much of anyone at all.

I think you are confused as to what the TRUTH is
And I think you are, so how do we determine the accuracy of what I said? All I meant by what I posted was, the material that was posted is absolutely untrue. Any kind of material of that nature has, ultimately, one of two determinations that can be made about it: either it is true, or it is false. The material was unequivocally, indisputably, undeniably false. Not only is it false, most of the people who continue to spread that nonsense are doing so in spite of having been told, by those better informed, that it was a complete lie when it was first published by Leo Taxil.

That makes this information not just a lie, but a double lie, because Taxil told it even though he knew it was false, and most of those spreading it around now already know about Taxil's confession to having fabricated it.

I don't care whether you look at it from the perspective of those who continue to spread it, or from the perspective of its original author, either way it's a flat-out LIE!

And the quote I gave is regarding the truth of the Bible AND the lies of the devil, why you mention one and not the other, I don't know. It says the devil is the father of lies, and since this is clearly material that was created as a lie, then the devil is the father of it as well.

Surely you aren't trying to suggest otherwise?
 
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Rev Wayne

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Nobody minds fielding objections, as long as someone has somewhat to support the arguments they make. I haven't forgotten, you were on a thread not so long ago, doing the same thing, making unsubstantiated claims with automatic presumptions that they were true. You are doing the same thing once again. I really can't imagine you have any sort of objectifiable material to support anything you just said, so your comments really contribute nothing but your own subjective criticism, which proves very little if anything at all, and certainly nothing of any substance.

I can add my own subjective material in response, since you seem to consider it a valid approach. When I grew up in my home church, I never knew any of the people there as anything other than Christians, and some very sincere and dedicated ones at that. Years later, when some of these godly men, who had been such a strong Christian influence on myself and many others as well, began to grow old and die, I started noticing in obituaries that mention was made that they had been Masons. So I started keeping my eyes open for it, and noticed that all the men who had been the most dedicated Christian servants in the church, and the ones of the greatest character and influence, were all Masons.

Later, the Lord began to lead me toward joining, but I had had my mind filled with the same kinds of objections that a lot of people have, simply because I had been fed that same information and believed it. Closer investigation began to show me better information, and eventually I joined. I can truthfully say, my ministry has improved since that time. I have served in four separate appointments, two before joining and two after. The appointment I was given immediately after joining, I accomplished more, by the grace of God, in the three years I was there than I did in the five years I spent in the previous appointment. I went to a church that was paying about 25% of their apportioned budget each year, which was in financial shambles after a former treasurer had been suspected of misappropriating church funds, where the pastor was doing some bizarre and unexplainable things, and the daycare had just been reported to DSS.

In the three years there, we got some good people put into place who straightened out the finances and started making regular reports to the administrative council of the church; we put a capable assessor to the task of getting to the heart of what the daycare problems were, which wound up with the director being dismissed and a new one put in place. When I left the church last year for this new appointment, the daycare had a full slate of as many kids that could be allowed in the space available, with a long waiting list of people who wanted their kids in our daycare, the budget and finances of the church were sound, the church had increased their apportioned giving from 25% to about 85%, and attendance had begun to increase, going from an average in the 40's to an average in the 60's. At last report, after talking with the new pastor there recently, the church continues to grow, averaging in the 80's and 90's each Sunday.

At the church here, we have gone from a very inactive church in many ways, to being much more active in both church and community. In fact, a group just departed yesterday who had been at our church for the last ten days using it as sleeping space, while they did some construction work at our neighboring Baptist Church. I was pleased that our people were willing to offer this service across denominational lines to help out our neighbors, for there are a lot of churches who would have had one or more excuses not to extend a helping hand. At our finance committee meeting this month, it was reported that despite our small numbers, we had already met 100% of the budget, and did so in July! Involvement in Sunday School has increased steadily, and this church is beginning to attract visitors to the worship service.

I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for all the good things I see happening, for it is He who gives the increase in all that we do. Contrary to your claims, I am seeing thriving ministries developing in the places where the Lord has called me to serve. No "dilution" or "pollution" or "withdrawing His hand" going on here, just enjoying doing ministry here in this place.
 
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SealedEternal

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The quote is a lie, it is part of the Leo Taxil hoax, it never existed in the first place.

In the article I linked to it explains how you guys are trained to use that Taxil nonsense to obfuscate and wave away any evidence that is presented: http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/luciferquotes.html. The quote you are denying has nothing whatsoever to do with some Leo Taxil character, and it is in fact from a letter that is in the Archives of the British Museum in London.

SealedEternal
 
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Floatingaxe

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Why are you defending an unorthodox, satanic religion here in Christian Philosophy and Ethics? It doesn't fit here.
 
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Jester4kicks

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The page you linked to is lengthy... which quote are you looking at?

Oh... and as for the website itself...
http://www.masonicinfo.com/thesaint.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/watchy.htm


Why are you defending an unorthodox, satanic religion here in Christian Philosophy and Ethics? It doesn't fit here.

Why do you think it's an unorthodox, satanic religion? You seem to have a talents for making wild accusations with absolutely nothing to back them up.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Why do you think it's an unorthodox, satanic religion? You seem to have a talents for making wild accusations with absolutely nothing to back them up.

I have many talents, but making wild accusations are not one of them.

Unorthodox is where the previous threads on Freemasonry were conducted.

Any group which puts forth its own "bible" and religious tenets is a religion, and as it embraces all gods, it is certainly not of God. In fact, as it demands a blood oath for membership into a brotherhood, at an altar, which mimics God's way of blood ratifying all covenants, it makes a mockery of God.

Any man who now would denounce Freemasonry, (apart from the clear call to freedom in Christ by the Holy Spirit, for which there is no fear) a man would certainly have much fear of harm, or death! As I said, it takes now a deliverance of the Holy Spirit to free a man bound by such blood oaths.

Scripture warns us of taking oaths.

 
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Rev Wayne

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Why are you defending an unorthodox, satanic religion here in Christian Philosophy and Ethics? It doesn't fit here.

For one thing, it’s not satanic.
For another, it’s not a religion.
And for another, it doesn’t really fit anywhere, I find it a unique organization.

But the primary thing I would point out for you is: it’s not my thread and I didn’t put it here.

As a matter of fact, I was invited here by the resident O.F.F.ian, and at first declined, on the basis of a rule formerly posted on the unorthodox section, declaring that Freemasons professing Christian faith were free to post in the Christians Only section, but were to speak on the subject of Freemasonry only in the Unorthodox Theology area. With Mike's assurances that there were Masons posting on that thread (specifically, Jester4Kicks, who continues to post here also), I responded to his invitation and came here. Feel free to contact Mike to confirm this as the sequence of events by which I arrived here. I'm sure he has no reason to be anything but truthful about it.
 
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wayseer

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... all of which demonstrates your appalling ignorance concerning Freemasonry.

Freemasonry does not have its own 'bible'.

Freemasonry does not 'embrace' all gods.

Freemasonry does not demand any 'blood oath'.

Freemasonry is not a religion.

I am quite willing to explain further if you so wish. The danger is, you might learn something.
 
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Floatingaxe

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... all of which demonstrates your appalling ignorance concerning Freemasonry.

Freemasonry does not have its own 'bible'.

Yes, it has it's own type of bible--rules, regulations, religious dogma.

Freemasonry does not 'embrace' all gods.

Yes, it most certainly DOES.

Freemasonry does not demand any 'blood oath'.

Yes, it most certainly DOES. Initiation demands a self-curse, which involves bloody death.

Freemasonry is not a religion.

Yes, it most certainly IS.

I am quite willing to explain further if you so wish. The danger is, you might learn something.

You don't need to go any further. You obviously have been indoctrinated by these folk in their denials and whitewashing. You obviously are in need of good Godly teaching. I have learned enough to know to cause me to realize that Freemasonry is a cult and is extremely insidious to the Church of Jesus Christ.
 
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Rev Wayne

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In the article I linked to it explains how you guys are trained to use that Taxil nonsense to obfuscate and wave away any evidence that is presented:

Freemasonrywatch???? And you BELIEVED them??? Nobody is “trained” on any reply to the Leo Taxil nonsense (at least you were correct in calling his lies “nonsense”), it is public information available to anyone with a browser and an internet connection.

The quote you are denying has nothing whatsoever to do with some Leo Taxil character,


On the contrary, it has EVERYTHING to do with Leo Taxil, because he is the one who created it, it was part of his alleged “support” for the hoax he played on the Catholic Church. There were several other items he used as “proof” of his claims. The fact is, though, that every one of his alleged “proofs” were items he himself had devised.

and it is in fact from a letter that is in the Archives of the British Museum in London.

Then how come it never was there? And why did you not follow the link I posted titled “Pike and Mazzini,” which gives the corroborating evidence that proves this was a Taxil lie???

And you may object or post whatever links you wish, your claim is still as false as it was the first time you posted it, and your current claim that it is not false, is a false claim also. Since you refuse to go there and view the information, take a look:


Why are you spending so much time in defense of those who make their profession of Christianity suspect at best, with their lies and inventions about Freemasonry?

These accusers are all following patterns established by John Ankerberg and John Weldon in The Secret Teachings of the Masonic Lodge. They were one of the first to pioneer the lie by ellipsis, which is the citation of material supposedly “proving” their claims, while omitting from the very same material the very words that prove their claim to be a lie. A classic example was created later by John Weldon in “The Masonic Lodge and the Christian Conscience.” In it he claimed:

Masonic authority Albert Pike also denies the biblical God. He argues that "if our conceptions of God are those of the ignorant, narrow-minded, and vindictive Israelite...we feel that it is an affront and an indignity to [God]...”

This is, of course, a bit more creative than usual. Notice he has left material out in the middle and at the end of Pike’s comment, and has also added the bracketed [God] (the addition, since it substitues for the pronoun "Him," is harmless; the omissions, on the other hand, are not).

It doesn’t take much to find out what a huge and deliberate lie is created by the actions he thus takes in “quoting” Pike. The full paragraph reveals the truth:


I would simply direct your attention to the bold emphasis (added) in black, which are the clearest points in Pike’s comment which show this to be completely false, and falsely created. Pike clearly was speaking of Israelite conceptions of God that existed 19 centuries before Christ, and not the conceptions of any Israelites who were his contemporaries--which is what Weldon tries to deceive the reader into thinking. All Pike was saying was, that Israelites of a time nearly 2 millennia before Christ had lower and more limited views of God’s nature, and that if we adopt those concepts, then we do as well. In this view he is correct. The God of the New Testament is declared to be a God of love. The God of the OT might at a moment's notice cause the ground to swallow people up, or send a plague upon them. As for his views of the nature of Israelite views of the time period he described, he speaks true. I used to work with a Jewish man, who told me one day, “You know, God sure is cruel.” When I asked why, he based it on the verses from Exodus, which coincides almost perfectly with the time frame referenced by Pike.

The real question in all of this is: If people like Taxil, or like Ankerberg and Weldon, were so convinced of the things they spoke against Masonry; then why did they feel the need to invent lies about them? Did they just think they didn’t have enough material? Did they think no one would believe them if they told their claims without beefing them up with lies? Or are they simply doing what is the most likely thing, creating not only the lies but also creating a villain of their own choosing, mainly to pander upon an unsuspecting public the books which they purport will reveal the “truth” to the readers??

It’s as old as snake oil, first you convince people there is a malady about which they need to be concerned, and then you sell them the remedy of which you claim to be the possessor. From what you tell me, it sounds like the Freemasonrywatch people's pocketbooks have suffered since Masons began getting the truth out. So much so, that they apparently see it as beneficial to start telling people that Masons are "trained" to respond by "exposing" the already-exposed lies of Leo Taxil.
 
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Rev Wayne

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Staff Edit said:
I have many talents, but making wild accusations are not one of them.

Scripture warns us of taking frivolous oaths that are not intended to be kept—just as we explained to you then, and backed it up with citations from solid biblical commentaries. Paul took an oath, and later shaved his head in accordance with the oath, long AFTER he had become a Christian. God even sealed His promise with an oath, as we are told in the sixth chapter of Hebrews. As far as I’m concerned, those are pretty solid examples, especially the latter one. How will you argue with it when even God does it?

I have no interest in getting into this discussion with you again. [Staff Edit]

You make the same claims about oaths that you were making a year ago on another thread, on which you were shown then the error of the accusations. And please don’t bother trying to defend yourself against what I just said, since I was not the only one who took you to task over various inconsistencies on your part. [Staff Edit]


I for one will not be addressing anything else you post. It was a fruitless endeavor then, and I have no reason to suspect things have improved in the year that has elapsed since that time.

If you or any reader would like a response concerning oaths, we have been there, done that, to the Nth degree, with you on the thread mentioned, and with many others elsewhere. Rather than repeat what we’ve said over and over and over, I will simply refer you and others to the link where a lot of this same discussion began with you a year ago, and continued for several pages:

Christianity and Freemasonry
 
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wayseer

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Yes, it has it's own type of bible--rules, regulations, religious dogma.

....as does the local football club.


Yes, it most certainly DOES.

I guess if you keep repeating this nonsense you will actually come to believe it.

Yes, it most certainly DOES. Initiation demands a self-curse, which involves bloody death.

Oh - where and how does all this exactly takes place?

Yes, it most certainly IS.

Shouting won't make it any better. Learning will.


Then you know very little and a little knowledge is probably dangerous.
 
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Jester4kicks

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I have many talents, but making wild accusations are not one of them.

Unorthodox is where the previous threads on Freemasonry were conducted.
Uh huh... so, because someone (who was not a mason) started a thread about the masons in the "unorthodox" section... that makes the whole organization unorthodox?

If I start a thread about christianity in the "schizophrenia" section... does that automatically make all christians schizophrenic?

(hopefully you can tell I'm joking here...)


Freemasonry does not have it's own bible, however there are versions of the bible that include masonic information in the front. The bible itself is usually just a regular bible though.

Freemasonry does not "embrace all gods", it embraces all men, regardless of the god they believe in.

There is no "blood oath", although there is a symbolic "penalty" described for breaking one's oath... but everyone knows it's not enforced (hence why it is referred to as symbolic).


Scripture warns us of taking oaths.
We've been through this before. Aside from the fact that your claim about the warning in the bible regarding oaths may not be entirely accurate... people take oaths all the time. Lawyers, doctors, policemen, military servicemen, the president... just to name a few.


Yes, it has it's own type of bible--rules, regulations, religious dogma.
Are you trying to say that rules, regulations, and religious dogma constitute a bible? Ok, well that's easy enough... there is no religious dogma... but there are rules and regulations.

However, since even the local soccer team manages to have rules and regulations without the need for their own bible... I don't see why you would think Freemasonry would require anything more.



Yes, it most certainly DOES.
Source? Oh.. that's right... just your wild accusations again.


Yes, it most certainly DOES. Initiation demands a self-curse, which involves bloody death.
As previously stated, it's symbolic only... and every initiate knows that.


Yes, it most certainly IS.
Source? Oh.. that's right... just your wild accusations again.


I highly doubt you've learned much of anything... and if "godly teaching" results in this level of stubborness and ignorace... thanks, but no thanks.
 
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O.F.F.

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Wayne said:
Scripture warns us of taking frivolous oaths that are not intended to be kept

This is true; and Masonic oaths are not only frivolous, they are rash. They are rash, because Masons are told to repeat each word of the oath as they are being told to them, never knowing what they are about to say prior to reciting them. They are frivolous, because they are told that the penalty of the obligation is not to be taken literally, and has never literally been carried out; and they never will. So if the consequence for failing to keep a Masonic vow is frivolous and not intended to be kept, then the oath itself is frivolous, since violating the vow is of no consequence.

Furthermore, former Masons who left the Lodge for Christ, are not obligated to an oath which was rendered to us under false pretenses. As far as we Ex-Masons for Jesus are concern, the oaths which we took are null and void. God has released us from them. Leviticus 5:4-6 makes it clear that when something is hidden from a man (in this case, the fact that the teachings of the lodge violate God's Word) and he takes an oath thoughtlessly, he is guilty of sin. When he recognizes it as sin (which we have) he may be released from it by confessing it as such and claiming the promise found in 1 John 1:8-9; "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness," As for the Levitical demand for a sin offering, praise God that He offered His Son, Jesus Christ, as full payment for our sin debt, once and for all!

P.S.

Would a real pastor insult a person by displaying their screen name in such a derogatory fashion.

The unbiblical Floatingaxe rather than the biblical Floatingaxehead said:

You're calling her "unbiblical" as if to say, she's not a Christian, but instead an unbeliever. No one is displaying yours this way:

The infamous "Rev" Wayne; a Christian apostate said:

Your actions are not only unethical; they are a clear violation of this site's rules.
 
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O.F.F.

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J4K said:
Uh huh... so, because someone (who was not a mason) started a thread about the masons in the "unorthodox" section... that makes the whole organization unorthodox?

The religious teachings of Freemasonry are unorthodox to biblical Christianity. The site administrators have enough spiritual discernment to recognize this, hence their placing this topic in the "Unorthodox Theology" section they created at the time. I believe it's also located in "Non-Christian Religion" section as well; because that too is where it belongs.

In fact, the founder and owner of this site has gone on record stating the incompatibility of Freemasonry and biblical Christianity. The bottom-line is, the false teachings of the Masonic Lodge are heresy; plain and simple.
 
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Jester4kicks

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A masonic oath is a solemn promise before god AND your fellow man. It is an oath based on personal honor. Even if I were to leave the masons some day, and even if I believed I was "released" from my oath by forgiveness from god... I still would maintain my promise as a matter of personal honor and integrity.

What's funny about this is that the masons do not accept atheists because without a belief in deity, no promise they made could be considered binding... and yet I know many atheists, who hold the same regard for personal honor and intergrity that I do, who would not break that promise for any reason. In the meantime, here we have someone that believes in god, and thinks that his promise to his fellow man means nothing.

Am I the only person that thinks this is completely backwards?

Oh... and if you truly think violating your oath is of "no consequence"... consider this; if you're willing to break a solemn promise, and compromise your own intergrity... what reason do I, or anyone else here, have to think you'll be honest in the future?

One additional note... you've mentioned that you have no problem breaking your oath since you have been "released" from it... and yet I don't think I've ever actually seen you break it here. I've seen your website too... and I don't think I saw any place where you broke it there, either. Who knows, maybe there is a little shred of integrity left in there that is still holding you to your word.

On THAT note... did you ever actually get around to formally resigning as a mason? Last I heard, you simply stopped paying membership dues and allowed yourself to be suspended from the lodge.



This thread is in "Christian Philosophy and Ethics".
Jen's thread about Freemasons and the "End Times" is under "General Theology > Eschatology".
Another Freemason thread is under "Theology>Current Christian Affairs".
Another one is under "Society>Social Sciences".
Another is under "one bread, one body - Catholic".
Another is under "Faith Groups>Spirit-Filled / Charismatic".

There is ONE under "Unorthodox Theology", and it was posted there by a regular member... it wasn't moved there.

Oh, there is one more under "Unorthodox Theology>Fellowship>Latter-day Saints: Visitors Welcome>Visitor Questions and Discussion" (Seriously, how many subsections do you need?!)... anyway, that was posted by a mormon member, with no other apparent reason for section they chose (other than the fact that it's probably a section they frequent based on their faith). Regardless... it wasn't moved there by the staff.

So please don't bother suggesting that the placement of the threads on this forum is somehow indicatative of the staff's view of Freemasonry, one way OR the other.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Denial, denial, denial. Your responses are typical of a freemason.
 
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