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I actually agree with you here. God does choose those who believe.
But note: that is different than "God does choose who will believe". Which the Bible doesn't teach, but is foundational in Calvinism's doctrine of election.
Uh, real BAD job of trying to figure out stuff, griff.Yep. What you've just described is Arminian conditional election. God saves believers, but doesn't determine who will believe. Good job being an Arminian.
What kind of crazy question is this??2 Timothy 2:10 ESV
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
What determines who is in this "elect" group Paul speaks of?
Correct. God guarantees that He will save everyone who believes. Even the stinkers who believe.If it would lose the person their
salvation, it would be "conditional election".
Scripture teaches unconditional election.
Uh, real BAD job of trying to figure out stuff, griff.
God doesn't have to "determine" who will believe. He's omniscient. But it seems you're not up to speed on that.
What kind of crazy question is this??
It's not "what" determines who is in this group. God has always known who will be in this group.
Are you like most Calvinists who are speak of omniscience but really mean sovereignty?
Election is not about being chosen for salvation, griff. It is about being chosen for special privilege and service. Which applies to all 6 categories of election:So you believe in conditional election.
Election is not about being chosen for salvation, griff. It is about being chosen for special privilege and service. Which applies to all 6 categories of election:
#1 Jesus Christ
#2 angels 2 Tim 5:21
#3 national Israel
#4 NT believers Eph 1:4 {note what they were chosen FOR}
#5 12 disciples, including Judas (Jn 6:70)
#6 Paul was chosen to go to the Gentiles Acts 9:15
Note that not one of these categories were chosen for salvation.
Yes, and I can prove it.So you believe a person becomes elect by believing?
Neat. You just don't pay any attention.Neat. You are an Arminian.
Neat. You just don't pay any attention.
Yes, and I can prove it.
Eph 1:4
just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
So, who are the "us"? You might say, "the elect, of course". But that makes no sense. That's basically saying that God chose the chosen. Real dumb.
The answer to who the "us" are in v.4 is answered in v.19
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
So, the "us" in v.4 are the same "us" in v.19; and that would be believers.
So, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.
Nothing there about being chosen for salvation.
And thanks for the question that allows me to clear all this up for you.
They will believe in Christ.2 Timothy 2:10 ESV
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
How did these people become elect?
And this is what griff concluded:Yes, and I can prove it.
Eph 1:4
just as He chose US in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
So, who are the "us"? You might say, "the elect, of course". But that makes no sense. That's basically saying that God chose the chosen. Real dumb.
The answer to who the "us" are in v.4 is answered in v.19
and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward US who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
So, the "us" in v.4 are the same "us" in v.19; and that would be believers.
So, Eph 1:4 says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless.
Nothing there about being chosen for salvation.
And thanks for the question that allows me to clear all this up for you.
Your statement has no relevance to the verses nor explanation I gave. I proved that the chosen in Eph 1 were believers. To be chosen means to be a believer.Congrats. That is conditional election.
Great post! I think if griff follows your advice, but maybe a bit HARDER, what I posted might actually sink in!Bang head here:
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