Calvinism and predestination.

[pawnraider]

Does Calvinism state that there are those predestinated to Heaven and Hell regardless of what they could do or believe? In other words, has God already selected the ones He wants to be saved so He has predestinated them to be saved? I was reading the Westminster Confession of Faith and The Larger Catechism and the answer to question no. 17 would make this appear so. Is this right?

 

[AMR]

God has unconditionally elected some to salvation and passed over others, leaving them in their sins. God's election is wholly based on His own will and not the merits of those He chooses to elect. God's act of election is one of grace, as no one deserves anything but His righteous judgment for our sins, given the fall of all mankind in Adam. That God chooses to elect anyone is a testimony to His grace (unmerited favor).

See What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library for more details.

AMR

 

[heymikey80]

Does Calvinism state that there are those predestinated to Heaven and Hell regardless of what they could do or believe?

Um, what are you seeking to express?

There are so many jumping off points with that expression that I have to shake my head & say, I don't know what you're asking, but no, that's not a good way to communicate it.

Humanity's nature is such that it will inevitably condemn itself on the basis of its own works, if God does not unilaterally intervene. So no, not "regardless". There is nothing but the corrupt human will in the way of people acting or believing -- but there is no uncorrupt human will. So "could" is ambiguous.

has God already selected the ones He wants to be saved so He has predestinated them to be saved? I was reading the Westminster Confession of Faith and The Larger Catechism and the answer to question no. 17 would make this appear so. Is this right?

Actually -- most of western Christianity including the Council of Trent (Catholic) and Lutheran thought (Concord) agrees that God has already selected from the foundation of the world the people He will ultimately save.

But that's nowhere near "in other words" of your initial question.

In Reformed thought people who are condemned are condemned based on their own sinful natures. But people are justified through faith in Christ Jesus, a faith brought about through the regeneration and call of God to those He has chosen.

So, ah, I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

[pawnraider]

Does Calvinism state that there are those predestinated to Heaven and Hell? Does God elect some to salvation and others to Hell and is that salvation available only to those who God elected to such beforehand?

 

[heymikey80]

Does Calvinism state that there are those predestinated to Heaven and Hell?

There are those who are predestined to glorification through God's choosing to remake them.

There are those who are condemned beforehand on account of their own willful and unrepentant sinfulness.

There's nobody in between.

Does God elect some to salvation and others to Hell ...

God does not unilaterally choose people to Hell. He condemns people to Hell justly because of their sinfulness.

God does unilaterally choose people to salvation.

... and is that salvation available only to those who God elected to such beforehand?

Availability is always a condition. Absolutely available? Well, if God already knows who will believe in Him, His choice would have been "beforehand" -- would you still call salvation "available" to a people who would consistently refuse to choose Him? If so, then yeah, it's "available". But no one will come.

For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one." Rom 3:9-12
​

 

[AMR]

Does Calvinism state that there are those predestinated to Heaven and Hell? Does God elect some to salvation and others to Hell and is that salvation available only to those who God elected to such beforehand?

There are those within the Calvinistic community that hold to double predestination, which is what you are expressing. They are in the minority among the Reformed faithful and are usually strict adherents to the writings of Herman Hoeksema, who led some of his folllowers to start the PRCA, Protestant Reformed Churches in America.

The majority of Reformed reject the equal ultimacy espoused by Hoeksema and others who adopt these views.

To learn more, research the topics of infralapsarianism versus supralapsarianism. A good start is here. Debates between the proponents of either view often degenerate into divisiveness. Hopefully that won't happen here.

AMR

 

[kenrapoza]

Also, the OP seems to imply that God just chooses people willy-nilly regardless of what they believe. The replies have been correct, that God's election is based only on the good pleasure of His will and His glory, but it is not abstract or in a vacuum. We are only chosen in Christ and through the gospel! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Those who are chosen will hear the gospel and respond in repentance and faith in Christ. The center of our discussion should be Christ, not abstract capriciousness.

This is usually the difference between those who are new to Calvinism and/or don't really understand it, and those who have matured in the reformed faith. We are only saved because of the person and work of Jesus, and we are chosen to be His bride. The church is a loving gift from a Father to a Son, who left the glories of heaven to step down into His creation, suffer death at the hands of His own creatures, so that He could rescue that bride.

Yes, God elects us unto salvation, but our election is in Christ, we are in union with Him. Marriage is our visible picture of this union. God has chosen us since before the foundation of the world, this is clearly taught in Scripture. And if you read the WCF you will notice that it nuances this very carefully. We are not dragged kicking and screaming into the kingdom. Our eyes are opened to the depravity of man, the holiness of God and the beauty of the gospel. This is a gift of grace and upon receiving it we freely believe in Christ. As the reformers said, soli deo gloria!

 

[pawnraider]

First off I don't want anyone to think my only purpose to to be contentious but if God chose some to salvation and not others then what about these verses:
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
I'm just trying to understand and not be contentious. Thank you for your responses.

 

[Hentenza]

First off I don't want anyone to think my only purpose to to be contentious but if God chose some to salvation and not others then what about these verses:
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
I'm just trying to understand and not be contentious. Thank you for your responses.

Well, God is omniscient and therefore has foreknowledge of all people that will be saved and of all people that will not. He has this knowledge infinitely and eternal. To say that God does not have this knowledge is to say that God is not all knowing and further, not all powerful. If God wills it then it will come to pass, however, the verses that you quoted are not saying that all will be saved since we do know from biblical accounts that many will not attain salvation. God does not fail so the implication is that God does, in fact, knows from the foundation of the world who would be saved and who will not. The exact mode of how God will exact His gift of salvation is a mystery.

 

[pawnraider]

So according to reformed theology does God designate some to be saved and others not to be?

 

[mlqurgw]

So according to reformed theology does God designate some to be saved and others not to be?

No. The Reformed view is that of all of Adam's fallen race, which deserve nothing from God but wrath and everlasting destruction, He chose to save some according to the good pleasure of His will. He was never obligated to save any. The fact that He saves some is what is amazing. Now by His choosing to save some it isn't a necessary conclusion that by not choosing to save others He designated them to damnation. All who are damned are damned because they hate God and His salvation. Those who are saved are saved because God chose to give them life and faith in Christ. The elect are no better than the reprobate. They do nothing that draws God's love any more than the reprobate. God loves and saves them simply because He chooses to. He has both the right and authority to give salvation to whom He will and leave all whom He will in their sin.

 

[mlqurgw]

Well, God is omniscient and therefore has foreknowledge of all people that will be saved and of all people that will not. He has this knowledge infinitely and eternal. To say that God does not have this knowledge is to say that God is not all knowing and further, not all powerful. If God wills it then it will come to pass, however, the verses that you quoted are not saying that all will be saved since we do know from biblical accounts that many will not attain salvation. God does not fail so the implication is that God does, in fact, knows from the foundation of the world who would be saved and who will not. The exact mode of how God will exact His gift of salvation is a mystery.

There is a difference between omniscience and prescience. God knows all things and all outcomes of every contingency in perfect infinite knowledge. That is omniscience. Prescience is God knowing what will happen before it does. Foreknowledge as it is used in the Scriptures never means prescience. It means to have an intimate personal relationship before. God has prescience of what will happen because He has ordained that it will. He has purposed to glorify Himself in the salvation of chosen sinners and has ordained everything that comes to pass in time unto that end. If He looked down through time and saw what happens that would mean that God was informed as to what will happen and that destroys His omniscience. Why God chose someone like me to be the object of His infinite love, mercy and grace in saving my soul is a mystery. But how God saves isn't.

 

[mlqurgw]

First off I don't want anyone to think my only purpose to to be contentious but if God chose some to salvation and not others then what about these verses:
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
I'm just trying to understand and not be contentious. Thank you for your responses.

Of course the answer to both of those verses is context. 1Tim. 2:4 is a conclusion of sorts of what Paul was telling Timothy in verses 1-3. It has clear reference to all sorts of men not to all men. If that were the case then all men would be saved because God never fails to get what He wants.

The 2Pet. 3:9 passage is easily explained in its context by a little grammar. Who do the "any" and "all" refer to? To find out we must see who Peter was writing to and to who are the subject of the statement is. First he was writing to believers. So by that we know that he was addressing believers whom in his first epistle he calls elect. Second we must find who the subject of the statement. It is a simple matter to find out that he is referring to the "us" whom God is not slack concerning His promises but long-suffering toward. The rest of the statement is in its context referring to "us" not to everyone without exception. God is not willing that any of us perish. To seek to make the statement fit into a theology that encompasses God desiring the salvation of all men everywhere is to not only misuse the statement but to actually use it against the very nature of God.

 

[pawnraider]

"The 2Pet. 3:9 passage is easily explained in its context by a little grammar. Who do the "any" and "all" refer to? To find out we must see who Peter was writing to and to who are the subject of the statement is."

Then how should it have been written to include all humanity under the possibility of salvation and not just the few.

 

[mlqurgw]

"

The 2Pet. 3:9 passage is easily explained in its context by a little grammar. Who do the "any" and "all" refer to? To find out we must see who Peter was writing to and to who are the subject of the statement is."

Then how should it have been written to include all humanity under the possibility of salvation and not just the few.

If it had been intended to mean all humanity it would have said all humanity. The fact that "any' and "all" refer to a particular group is common in the Scriptures as well as in normal language usage. "Any" and "all" must refer to someone and we must determine who that someone is according to the context. The context clearly shows that it isn't in reference to all humanity.

 

[bradfordl]

So according to reformed theology does God designate some to be saved and others not to be?

What does this mean?:

Rom 9:18-24 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

[Hentenza]

There is a difference between omniscience and prescience. God knows all things and all outcomes of every contingency in perfect infinite knowledge. That is omniscience. Prescience is God knowing what will happen before it does. Foreknowledge as it is used in the Scriptures never means prescience. It means to have an intimate personal relationship before. God has prescience of what will happen because He has ordained that it will. He has purposed to glorify Himself in the salvation of chosen sinners and has ordained everything that comes to pass in time unto that end. If He looked down through time and saw what happens that would mean that God was informed as to what will happen and that destroys His omniscience. Why God chose someone like me to be the object of His infinite love, mercy and grace in saving my soul is a mystery. But how God saves isn't.

God doesn't have to look through time to know what happens. He has all knowledge before the beginning of time.

 

[pawnraider]

If it had been intended to mean all humanity it would have said all humanity. The fact that "any' and "all" refer to a particular group is common in the Scriptures as well as in normal language usage. "Any" and "all" must refer to someone and we must determine who that someone is according to the context. The context clearly shows that it isn't in reference to all humanity.

That's why you have the word "all." And you shouldn't need any quantifiers such as "humanity." If so the English language would be even more convoluted than it is. Like this explanation is going to satisfy anyone.

 

[bradfordl]

That's why you have the word "all." And you shouldn't need any quantifiers such as "humanity." If so the English language would be even more convoluted than it is. Like this explanation is going to satisfy anyone.

You are reading it to say what you already believe. Consider the following:

Of the people who have posted on this thread, ALL have internet access.

Does that ALL imply ALL of humanity? Of course not. So when Peter says, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward", then it follows when he says, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." the ANY and the ALL refer to US-WARD.

 

[mlqurgw]

That's why you have the word "all." And you shouldn't need any quantifiers such as "humanity." If so the English language would be even more convoluted than it is. Like this explanation is going to satisfy anyone.

"All" is always quantified. The word "all' by itself stands for nothing. If I say to you that all have yellow in them you would wonder what I was talking about. But if I say all eggs have yellow in them you know because I quantified it. It must be all of something and that something is determined by the context. If you say that the in the passage that all must mean all humanity then you are making an assumption that the context does not determine. You are reading into the passage your presumption.