Calvinism and Baptists?

[LadyOfMystery]

Hi!
So I've been wondering this for awhile... What's the differences between Calvinism and Baptist?

 

[Tangible]

Hi!
So I've been wondering this for awhile... What's the differences between Calvinism and Baptist?

Either very little or very much, depending on which Baptist you ask. About the only thing Baptists really agree on is on their anti-Sacramentalism.

 

[MrPolo]

Yeah, there are especially many strains of Baptists as I understand it. Generally, your full blown Calvinist will differ from most other Christian denominations in that it teaches that God predestines some people to hell by depriving them of the graces they need to be saved.

 

[Tangible]

Baptists run the gamut in Reformed theology between full on Calvinist to full on Arminian. The largest group, the Southern Baptists, can usually be characterized as Amyraldian, aka four point Calvinists.

 

[JM]

You should've asked this question in the Reformed or Baptist forum.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Hi!
So I've been wondering this for awhile... What's the differences between Calvinism and Baptist?

Baptist refers to a denominational group while Calvinism is a theological system. Baptist groups are very diverse in theology. Some Baptists are Calvinists.

 

[JM]

Baptist refers to a denominational group while Calvinism is a theological system. Baptist groups are very diverse in theology. Some Baptists are Calvinists.

Yup. [FONT=&quot]You can blanket a church body with a set of authoritative confessions, canons and teachings and still find as much diversity as you find in Baptist churches. [/FONT]

 

[mark46]

When I first accepted Jesus, I had not decided what Church to join. Several suggested that I try a Baptist church since that had no formal confessions and I would be free to work out my own salvation. So, I chose among the 14 Baptist church within a few miles of my house.

Seriously, there are vast difference in theology among Baptists. And yes, there are those who think that 5 point Calvinists are heretics, while there are those who are themselves 5-point Calvinists and who would greatly take offense at a fellow Baptist making such theological judgements. And yes, there are many who are 4-point Calvinists.
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Personally, I find the biggest difference is with regard to the Lord's Table. Few Baptists would accept that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, albeit even in Spirit as Calvin taught. Few give the Lord's Table the importance it has in Reformed (Calvinist) churches.

 

[lone soldier]

At least I know never to go to a baptist church now. lol

 

[OpenDoor]

your full blown Calvinist will differ from most other Christian denominations in that it teaches that God predestines some people to hell by depriving them of the graces they need to be saved.

Full blown!
Like a terminal case of Calvinism.

I think you are referring to Hyper-Calvinism.

 

[mark46]

Interestingly, I don't feel that way.

When I have gone to a Baptist service, I consider it like going to a prayer meeting. Since there is no liturgy, there really is no conflict for me. I feel comfortable participating in a prayer service that consists of 4 hymns, a bible reading or two, a sermon opening the Word, and a collection.

After all, Baptist are fellow Christains, and most are sincere in their faith.

To be more clear, I wouldn't refuse to pray with someone simply because I thought that they did not have the full deposit of faith given to us by Jesus through scripture and His Church.

At least I know never to go to a baptist church now. lol

 

[OpenDoor]

Interestingly, I don't feel that way.

When I have gone to a Baptist service, I consider it like going to a prayer meeting. Since there is no liturgy, there really is no conflict for me. I feel comfortable participating in a prayer service that consists of 4 hymns, a bible reading or two, a sermon opening the Word, and a collection.

After all, Baptist are fellow Christains, and most are sincere in their faith.

Communion is offered at Baptist churches maybe not all the time, but it is celebrated.

 

[mark46]

Correction accepted.

Yes, I understand. When I was in the SBC, we celebrated the Lord's Table once a month. While it was important, the notion that Jesus was really present would have been a foreign one.

Communion is offered at Baptist churches maybe not all the time, but it is celebrated.

 

[OpenDoor]

Correction accepted.

When I was in the SBC, we celebrated the Lord's Table once a month. While it was important, the notion that Jesus was really present would have been a foreign one.

Depends, I am not a Baptist but I think they would believe that Jesus is really present when two or more gathered in His name. So I think it would stand to reason that they would believe Jesus is really present even during their communion service?

Can any Baptists confirm?

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I think the only thing that all Baptists really have in common is that they believe in adult baptism as opposed to infant baptism. Other than that, I really don't think there's much. When it comes to Calvinism vs. Arminianism, they run the whole gambit.

The "Baptist" label is a massively broad label.

 

[ebia]

Hi!
So I've been wondering this for awhile... What's the differences between Calvinism and Baptist?

Calvin believed in infant baptism and baptists don't?

 

[Tangible]

Calvin believed in infant baptism and baptists don't?

Yes. And Calvin believed in a form of spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. For Baptists it's purely symbolic.

I'd better stop there.

 

[MamaZ]

This reminds me of I am of Paul.

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Is SBC or SB not an offspring of reformed baptist? Can we say that Southern Baptist is an offspring of the reformed Baptist ? I've been told that the Reformed Baptist is the offspring of the Baptist group. Who came first ?

The Southern Baptist Convention [SBC] formally became a denomination in 1845. This by a schism between congregations in the Southern U.S. with what has been termed "Northern Baptists".

So, the question becomes: How "Reformed" were these baptists prior to 1845 ?

The very first Baptist congregation in the Southern U.S. was formed in 1682 by William Screven. One of who's contemporaries, Rev. Joseph Lord, referred to Screven as an Anabaptist (click HERE).

I dunno whether Screven was in fact an Anabaptist, but there' no reason to suppose he was a Reformation Christian.

Prior to Baptists in America, Baptists in England were categorized as either General Baptists or as Particular Baptists.

"The earliest General Baptist Church was thought to be founded about 1608 or 1609" (click HERE).

Particular Baptists have been assigned the date of 1633 for their formation (click HERE).

General Baptists being Arminian.

Particular Baptists are Calvinists.

But it isn't so much that one 'came out of' -or were derived from- the other. General Baptists merely formalized first (SEE: Above).

The original Baptists having been a mix of both, with Believers-only baptism as doctrine bringing all of 'em together.

Hence one or the other cannot be assigned historical priority.

Then, by the time Baptists came to America, they were almost exclusively General (Arminian) Baptists.

Not that they consciously claimed Arminianism, or -for that matter- knew who Jacobus Arminius was ! ( SEE: More on this facet, below. )

What does it mean for an Southern Baptist Ordained Minister (not senior) not know a single thing about Arminianism ?

I have no idea what you mean by "not senior". Maybe you can expand on that concept ?

But a person can be very Arminian and never even have heard of the term!

For that matter, be an Arminian while knowing nothing of the terminology of Arminianism.


I believe that this is especially true about Southern Baptists ...both now and historically.

They preach a semi-Pelagian false "gospel" with no recognition of it's relationship to other theologies.

Reformation Christians -in particular- are at a disadvantage here, with our long history of theological scholarship. We're disconcerted by naive and sloppy theology !

We tend to just assume a certain minimum level of doctrinal discernment. And you can't do that with SB's !

In capsule:

Historically, Baptists in England were never either "Arminian" or "Reformed". Rather a mixed group of both which eventually split into General Baptists (semi-Pelagian) and Particular Baptists (Calvinist).

Baptists in America were almost exclusively General Baptists, with Particular Baptists the exception ...really, the rare exception.

General Baptists are Arminians (semi-Pelagians) yet don't self-identify as such, and often don't even know what this nomenclature refers to!

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I would like to elaborate on a couple points, about "Reformed Baptists" and about Reformation in the SBC.

First, doctrinally there is no difference between the terms "Reformed Baptists" and "Particular Baptists".

Reformed Baptists are Particular Baptists, and Particular Baptists are Reformed Baptists.

Theologically.

Historically, however, the term "Reformed Baptist" has come to supersede "Particular Baptist".

"Particular Baptist" has more of a connotation of 17th. and 18th. Century history. Especially the schism between them and General Baptists.

"Reformed Baptist" as terminology being much more recent. And almost always referencing independent Reformation Christians of a Baptistic persuasion OUTSIDE ANY GIVEN DENOMINATION.

Hence, "Particular Baptist" may still be the best nomenclature for Reformation Christians in the SBC.

As for Reformation Christianity within the SBC...

It was only in the late-1980's thru mid-2000 that Calvinism had much influence in the SBC.

During some of that period, the SBC leadership was nominally Calvinist.

But this a top-down phenomena in the SBC, even at the height of that denomination's reformation. The average congregant in the pews, and nearly all it's mid-level management, had continued to be heavily Arminian!

Several years ago, the SBC returned to Arminianism ...and, in particular, a Church Growth / Seeker Sensitive type Arminianism...with the election of Johnny Hunt as SBC President.

The SBC brief flirtation with the Reformation can now be accurately described as 'dead' !

The SBC is currently interested in filling pews and retaining it's position as the largest protestant denomination in the United States.

I predict it's present preoccupation with membership -rather than with Christ- shall gradually (yet invariably) gravitate from it's prevailing Church Growth/Seeker Sensitive attitude to unabashed theological liberalism.

Eventually we'll be reading in the news about the SBC debating whether or not to ordain homosexuals as ministers !

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Maybe everybody else here already knew this, but former U.S. President Jimmy Carter has resigned from the SBC.

Sort of.

He will continue as a deacon and Sunday school teacher at the SBC Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains, Georgia, his hometown.

Carter cites sexism as his reason for quiting the SBC. Seems they don't want to have female pastors, and have said wives should submit to their husbands !


His local congregation now sends half of it's collections to the Leftist Cooperative Baptist Fellowship.

The CBF teaches doctrines such as Soul Freedom (aka Soul Competency).

In the SBC version of this, "Soul Competency" is the "accountability of each person before God". That is, a person can't use any human institution to cop-out for their own errors of belief.

[ Although, as Calvinists, we aren't inclined to depict souls as "competent". A descriptor more aligned with the Reformation might -instead- call this something like "Soul Responsibility". ]

Dr. Al Mohler (SBC) has criticized this as an "autonomous individualism" which has "infected" his denomination (click HERE).


I can certainly see groups like the CBF as using it to teach a doctrine of salvation regardless of what church -or cult- a person has membership in.

Soul Freedom/Competency being one of those things which can easily go either way:

We aren't saved by a church, yet neither are we saved outside The Church!

I can easily imagine Carter, and the CBF, using Soul Freedom/Competency as a doctrine of "autonomous individualism". Also to promote a Radical Ecumenicalism where a person can be saved while remaining a Muslim-Buddhist-Hindu-Romanist-Mormon-whatever-else.

At the same time, it ISN'T "autonomous individualism" to say that each of us individually shall stand before the Lord to answer for what we believed (or didn't believe).

Those of us in Christ, however, shall stand there as BOTH individuals and as members of His Church. Individual faith extends into the Communion of the Saints.

As the Creed says:

"I believe in the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints"

We can't cop-out by claiming "the Pope misled me". Yet neither is this an excuse for remaining outside Christ's Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes. And Calvin believed in a form of spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. For Baptists it's purely symbolic.

I'd better stop there.

I didn't realize the Baptists view it like that. Interesting