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Calvary Chapel and Vineyard

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JimB

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A personal assessment:


Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard grew from the same root. Calvary Chapel believes in the present working of the Holy Spirit but would rather place more emphasis on teaching the Word than in displaying the gifts. Therefore, healings, etc. are removed from center stage and relegated to a secondary position.
This is where Chuck Smith (CC) and John Wimber (V) parted company. Wimber was more experiential and Smith more cerebral and in their approach to ministry. Wimber probably thought Smith quenched the Spirit and Smith probably thought Wimber opened the door to weirdness. Anyhow, in the early ‘80’s there came a parting of the ways and Wimber left Calvary Chapel to form the Vineyard movement. Some 30 CC pastors/churches left with him and the Vineyard officially began in 1982. IMO, this created deep hostility among some CC advocates toward the Vineyard, who viewed the new movement more as a illegitimate step-child than a legitimate organization: Wimber and the V to pursue experiential Christianity and CC to keep their grounding in doctrine. That is not to say that CC abandoned the experiential or Vineyard abandoned the Word, but to say that their emphases were different.

The result (IMO) is that the V, in pursuing experiential (and too often, experimental) Christianity at the expense of sound doctrine ran into controversy in their association with two [unnamed] movements in the ‘90’s, which they experimented with then backed away from and, to this day, bear the stigma of their brief involvement.
Wimber died in 1997, in the wake of those two theological controversies and, because of them, a divisiveness in the V ranks. Since then, the V has steadily moved more toward their doctrinaire CC roots and there seems to be more emphases on sound teaching. I joined the V in 2000 because I could see that there was more balance (IMO) coming to the V than I had seen before—two disastrous plunges over the edge were enough to bring more sober minds to bear on the way V functions. Personally, I am happy with this.

In some respects, theologically and maybe in practice, I am probably more in sympathy with CC than V but am reluctant to move in that direction because CC seems to be more of a reflection of the beliefs and values of its founder, Chuck Smith, and the organization is much too centralized for my liking. I prefer the autonomy of V churches but probably would not have joined the movement when Wimber was alive because I felt then that the V was an extension of him (although, as any V person does, I respect Wimber’s contribution to American Christianity—I just don’t revere or idealize his memory as some of my colleagues do). And, IMO, CC is often far too insulated and critical of other Christian groups that do not share their beliefs and values (Hank Hanegraaf, for example, is a member of the Costa Mesa CC, Chuck Smith’s church--'nuff said).
My prediction is that when Smith steps down from leadership in CC (he is presently 80-years-old) the movement will slowly gravitate more to demonstrative Christianity just as the V, at Wimber’s passing, became more theologically deliberate. IMO, each group can learn from and contribute to the other and who knows, but wouldn’t it be great, if they eventually reconciled their earlier differences and brought their two families of 1,300+ congregations each together once again?
Anyhow, that’s my assessment of Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard. What's yours? (And keep it nice, neither movement is about personalities, so let's not inject personal references and slams into this discussion.)

~Jim
 

Alpine

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The VCC! Vineyard Calvary Chapel. Wouldn't that be something? To turn on the news one day and hear about church fusion instead of church splits!

That would be neat. Maybe we can get the Assemblies of God and Church of God in Christ back together too? ;)
 
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Waddell

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Calvary Chapel, Vineard, and Roman Catholic Church make annuncement that they are all "One". Christians all over the globe say "What true Christian is surprised by that?! :D :D

Religion and even two pence will NOT get you noticed in the House of God. :)

(two pence alone might've though! ;) :) )
 
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JimB

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Calvary Chapel, Vineard, and Roman Catholic Church make annuncement that they are all "One". Christians all over the globe say "What true Christian is surprised by that?! :D :D

Religion and even two pence will NOT get you noticed in the House of God. :)

(two pence alone might've though! ;) :) )

Thank you for you minority opinion, Waddell.

BTW, do you know Asaph?

BTW, are you Asaph? :wave:

Just asking, because these posts have such a familiar ring to them.

~Jim


Famous Last Words:

“Pull the pin and count to what?”













 
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knownbeforetime

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That would be neat. Maybe we can get the Assemblies of God and Church of God in Christ back together too? ;)
They used to be one church also? Sorry, I don't know much about Church history (contemporary or otherwise). I only found out a few months ago that V and CC used to be one and I had been friends with CC people for something like 7 years.
 
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hopeinGod

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Paul wrote in his letter to the Ephesians that there are two progressive unities to consider when considering the unity of the body of Christ.

First there is "the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace", which is kept "with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love." (verses 2 -3) Doctrinal agreement is not mentioned as necessary for this one.

Then, there is "the unity of the faith" which IS centered in doctrinal agreement. It is written that this form of unity comes through knowledge. It is doctrinally based, as we are told that by having this we are "no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine..." (verses 13-14) But, by "speaking the truth in love" we will "grow up into him in all things."

The first one is maintained through contriteness and by preferring others over oneself. The second comes as a result of a unity of sound doctrine...which will lead us to a deeper inward growth in Christ.

Dave
 
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Alpine

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They used to be one church also? Sorry, I don't know much about Church history (contemporary or otherwise). I only found out a few months ago that V and CC used to be one and I had been friends with CC people for something like 7 years.


Basically. They split for racial and other reasons as well. Kind of a sad history in a way.
 
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JimB

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Basically. They split for racial and other reasons as well. Kind of a sad history in a way.

Racial? :scratch:

Can you cite a reference?


~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“The odds of that happening are a million to one!”
 
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K

Katana

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Calvary Chapel, Vineard, and Roman Catholic Church make annuncement that they are all "One". Christians all over the globe say "What true Christian is surprised by that?! :D

Actually, it would be pretty pitiful if all the different denominations suddenly decided to become "one". It would mean that they possess a low regard for what they consider Truth. I for one would never consider myself "one" with a religion that exalts saints like Idols and prays to the dead instead of to God, or a religion that is based around gold teeth and flopping around on the floor like an animal. Minor differences are not a big deal, one man considers one day Holier than the next, another may watch what he eats, no big deal... However, those beliefs which are clearly blasphemous should be put away.

2 Corinthians 6:15
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

The walls of denomination are there for a reason. Tearing them down for idiotic reasons like 'Getting along', "tolerance", or "being loving" (catch phrases which have lost their meaning, and are not truly what they claim to be) is, well, idiotic. I prefer the day when all the denominations repent of their ungodly ways and false doctrines and become One in that regard.
 
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Templedweller

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I was saved in a V in 1991. That we are the one was never proported by the ones I accepted the Lord under. I never knew til 2nite the CC and V were once one.

Did know AG and the other were once on that was the one that split over race if I remember correctly.

Hmmmm interesting
 
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Alpine

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Racial? :scratch:

Can you cite a reference?


~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“The odds of that happening are a million to one!”

My prior reply was to knownbeforetime who didn't know anything about the AG/COGIC split. I've got absolutely no time to go find something good so I'll use wikipedia.


In approximately 1913, many of the original Assemblies Of God pastors and leaders had separated themselves from the Church Of God In Christ[citation needed], the Christian Missionary Alliance, and other prominent Pentecostal denominations. This split was due, in part, to racial tensions and societal laws requiring segregation[citation needed]. Another key factor for the separation was due to the lack of structured missionary support for worldwide efforts. This is of particular importance because many of the original Assemblies of God leaders and pastors were either ordained or received their appointments while in the Church Of God In Christ[citation needed].
 
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NorrinRadd

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My prior reply was to knownbeforetime who didn't know anything about the AG/COGIC split. I've got absolutely no time to go find something good so I'll use wikipedia.

:D:D:D

There were at least 3 "citation needed" tags in that wiki-quote.

Sorry, I use wikipedia too, but it can be such unreliable dreck. I love the way you characterized it -- "no time to go find something good."
 
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NorrinRadd

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I'm glad you started this thread, Jim. I'd wanted to start one of the same title, but I've been busy. I thought about posting my remarks in the two recent threads on those two non-denominations, but what I have to say doesn't fit their OPs about "why do some people remain in..." I don't personally know anyone who did remain in either of those churches long-term, because there are no such churches very close to me. There was a small CC right in my town, in a little storefront (cool!), and I attended there briefly; but it ended up closing and the pastor and his family returned to New York.

All please forgive my impending verbosity:

My direct experience + and - with CC:

+ The people were very nice.

+ The environment was casual and welcoming. The pastor usually wore jeans and tennis shoes.

+ There was zero pressure to "give." Usually, no collections were taken. There was an offering basket near the door.

+ Worship (music) was "contemporary."

- Worship was almost exclusively "slow and reverent." I prefer some "up-tempo and celebratory" mixed in.

- The pastor was not particularly well-trained.

+ The assistant pastor WAS well-trained and knowledgeable.

+ They guarded against charismatic "excess"; having left a WoF-ish church with "Toronto" leanings, that was important to me.

- They seemed to be "CINO" -- Charismatic In Name Only. I prefer non-zero operation of the gifts, but I do prefer zero to the stuff that was embraced in my prior church.

- They were a bit "odd" eschatologically; seemed to lean toward conspiracy theories and "newspaper" eschatology.

? I'm not sure, but I *think* they were in the "leadership is male" camp.

That is strictly my impressions of a single local body, gleaned over a period of several months.

My broader experience with official and quasi-official CC material:


+ It is easy to find fairly detailed official publications freely available online. (I will gladly dig up links on request.)

+ They strive to take a balanced approach to the manifestations of the Spirit.

- They are dogmatic about their eschatology, and "dogmatically noncommittal" about their soteriology. They reject "5-Point" Calvinism, they deny Arminianism, and in the process they show they don't really grasp either.


My local (but mostly indirect) experience with Vineyard:

? A friend of mine used to visit a Vineyard church about an hour away, ca. late '80s; it is gone now. His views on it were mixed.

- That church's pastor had a radio program. Any time I listened to it, the pastor was either preaching a harsh message, or else simply reading from John White's book, When the Spirit Comes with Power.

- A few years later, there was a big scandal wherein that pastor's wife was brutally assaulted and left for dead -- but she survived. At first, she claimed it had been her husband who attacked her. Then she recanted, and accepted his story that it was a demon disguised as him.

My broader Vineyard experience, via books:

+ I've mostly appreciated the books by Wimber, Kevin Springer, particularly Ken Blue, and (not as much) John White.


I've always wanted to "test drive" a Vineyard (other than the one my friend attended). Every so often I check back at their home page to see if there's one reasonably close to me.

I do think some middle ground between Vineyard and Calvary Chapel would probably be a nice church home.
 
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JimB

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My prior reply was to knownbeforetime who didn't know anything about the AG/COGIC split. I've got absolutely no time to go find something good so I'll use wikipedia.

Sorry. :blush: I thought you were talking about the V / CC split.

~Jim

Famous Last Words:
“The odds of that happening are a million to one!”
 
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NacDan

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<edited for Television>

My broader Vineyard experience, via books:

+ I've mostly appreciated the books by Wimber, Kevin Springer, particularly Ken Blue, and (not as much) John White.


I've always wanted to "test drive" a Vineyard (other than the one my friend attended). Every so often I check back at their home page to see if there's one reasonably close to me.

I do think some middle ground between Vineyard and Calvary Chapel would probably be a nice church home.
The response to that last remark is always: start a home group. That's how Vineyards get started anyway. You gotta plant.

By the time a Vineyard is large enough to "go public" and have an established location and service times you've missed out on the beauty of what the Vineyard really is. It's in the home groups that we develop our relationships with each other and deepen our relationship with our LORD, Christ Jesus. The service on Sunday morning is really are just window dressing. Done correctly, the Sunday morning "celebrations" are just a gathering of all the local home groups for collective worship, study, fellowship, and ministry.

Danny
 
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