LDS BY the racist

[Daniel Marsh]

"
I have fed fifty Indians almost day by day for months together. I always give them something, but I never forget to treat them like Indians; and they are always mannerly and kind, and look upon me as their superior. Never let them come into your houses, as the whites did in Utah [County]. There they would let them lounge upon their beds, until finally they would quarrel and become angry, if the women would not let them lounge upon their beds. Great, big, athletic fellows would want to go into the wickeups of the "Mormons," and lounge upon their beds, and sit on their tables and on their chairs, and make as free as though they belonged to the family. When their familiarities became oppressive to the whites, and they desired them to leave their houses, it made them angry, and I knew it would. This is the true cause of the Indian difficulties in Utah.

I say to the brethren who live in the country, Treat the Indians kindly; and now is the time to finish your forts, and make them doubly strong; and then go to with all your might and prepare places to keep your cattle, that neither white nor red man can, possibly steal them from you. If you want to know how strong to build your forts and your cattle yards, I will answer you as I did the brethren when we left Nauvoo. They wanted to know what kind of lariets they must provide, and how securely they must tie their animals. I said, "Tie them so that the Devil cannot get them." Secure yourselves, then, so that you can lie down and sleep in peace and be comfortable. Now is the time for us to make efforts to build places of safety.

Our meeting has continued about as long as we wished it. The brethren will sing, and we will adjourn till to-morrow morning at ten o'clock. *Journal of Discourses Volume 6 Proper Treatment of the Indians Etc.

Commentary by Phillip B Gottfredson

The above discourse by Brigham Young is bitterly racist. The words he uses to describe the Indian people such as "low" "degraded" "red man" and "treat them like Indians" and "not as your equals" Brigham Young clearly teaches his followers to discriminate, and that both he and they are superior to their "red neighbors," and are "their saviors." Brigham states that "It is our duty to teach them good morals and the principles of the Gospel of Christ" and that "the Lord will take care of the rest of it."

While Brigham acknowledges that his Indian policies in the past have failed and that a new course of action must be taken, and he acknowledges that he and his followers have run them off their land and have caused them to suffer starvation and hardship, still he justifies his beliefs that he and his followers are superior to the Indian people in the eyes of God and are therefore pardoned of any wrong doing.

Brigham admonishes his followers not to treat the Indian people like the rest of the United States has, "the inhabitants of the United States have treated the Indians in like manner. If but one person or only a few were guilty of committing a depredation upon a white settlement, they have chastised the whole tribe for the crime, and would perhaps kill those who would fight and die for them," he says. Brigham's alternative course would be to single out individual perpetrators and bring them to trial in a all white court, with an all white jury, and under white man's law be tried and punished accordingly."
Utah's Brigham Young's Discourses On Indian Relations

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

"
I have fed fifty Indians almost day by day for months together. I always give them something, but I never forget to treat them like Indians; and they are always mannerly and kind, and look upon me as their superior. Never let them come into your houses, as the whites did in Utah [County]. There they would let them lounge upon their beds, until finally they would quarrel and become angry, if the women would not let them lounge upon their beds. Great, big, athletic fellows would want to go into the wickeups of the "Mormons," and lounge upon their beds, and sit on their tables and on their chairs, and make as free as though they belonged to the family. When their familiarities became oppressive to the whites, and they desired them to leave their houses, it made them angry, and I knew it would. This is the true cause of the Indian difficulties in Utah.

I say to the brethren who live in the country, Treat the Indians kindly; and now is the time to finish your forts, and make them doubly strong; and then go to with all your might and prepare places to keep your cattle, that neither white nor red man can, possibly steal them from you. If you want to know how strong to build your forts and your cattle yards, I will answer you as I did the brethren when we left Nauvoo. They wanted to know what kind of lariets they must provide, and how securely they must tie their animals. I said, "Tie them so that the Devil cannot get them." Secure yourselves, then, so that you can lie down and sleep in peace and be comfortable. Now is the time for us to make efforts to build places of safety.

Our meeting has continued about as long as we wished it. The brethren will sing, and we will adjourn till to-morrow morning at ten o'clock. *Journal of Discourses Volume 6 Proper Treatment of the Indians Etc.

Commentary by Phillip B Gottfredson

The above discourse by Brigham Young is bitterly racist. The words he uses to describe the Indian people such as "low" "degraded" "red man" and "treat them like Indians" and "not as your equals" Brigham Young clearly teaches his followers to discriminate, and that both he and they are superior to their "red neighbors," and are "their saviors." Brigham states that "It is our duty to teach them good morals and the principles of the Gospel of Christ" and that "the Lord will take care of the rest of it."

While Brigham acknowledges that his Indian policies in the past have failed and that a new course of action must be taken, and he acknowledges that he and his followers have run them off their land and have caused them to suffer starvation and hardship, still he justifies his beliefs that he and his followers are superior to the Indian people in the eyes of God and are therefore pardoned of any wrong doing.

Brigham admonishes his followers not to treat the Indian people like the rest of the United States has, "the inhabitants of the United States have treated the Indians in like manner. If but one person or only a few were guilty of committing a depredation upon a white settlement, they have chastised the whole tribe for the crime, and would perhaps kill those who would fight and die for them," he says. Brigham's alternative course would be to single out individual perpetrators and bring them to trial in a all white court, with an all white jury, and under white man's law be tried and punished accordingly."
Utah's Brigham Young's Discourses On Indian Relations

I am not a Mormon, but found his observation of improper boundaries in "kindness" interesting. Often help leads to a laziness and contempt in the helped. Nothing new there, I see it all around me.

 

[Ironhold]

I am not a Mormon, but found his observation of improper boundaries in "kindness" interesting. Often help leads to a laziness and contempt in the helped. Nothing new there, I see it all around me.

...And, in fact, the settlers in Utah maintained a somewhat shaky relationship with the local Native American bands.

Some bands loved the members of the church, especially since the settlers would barter for what they wanted instead of attempting to take by force; these bands quickly came to distinguish between Mormon and non-Mormon whites and adjusted their dealings accordingly.

Other bands were openly hostile to anyone who attempted to settle for any reason, hence the need for arms and even forts.

The rest were in between, leading to wariness and often frustration in attempts to deal with them.

It's basic history.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

...And, in fact, the settlers in Utah maintained a somewhat shaky relationship with the local Native American bands.

Some bands loved the members of the church, especially since the settlers would barter for what they wanted instead of attempting to take by force; these bands quickly came to distinguish between Mormon and non-Mormon whites and adjusted their dealings accordingly.

Other bands were openly hostile to anyone who attempted to settle for any reason, hence the need for arms and even forts.

The rest were in between, leading to wariness and often frustration in attempts to deal with them.

It's basic history.

Any historical sources from Native Americans of that time?

 

[Ironhold]

Any historical sources from Native Americans of that time?

You presume that such sources exist, another issue that tends to bedevil historians.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The American Indian Movement, 1968-1978 | DPLA
LibGuides: Primary Sources: Native Americans - American Indians: General
Trail of Tears | The Museum of the Cherokee Indian
Documents Relating to Indian Affairs – UW Digital Collections
Edward S. Curtis's The North American Indian
https://guides.library.ucla.edu/c.php?g=180444&p=1187361
Research Hub: HIST 320: Native American History: FIND PRIMARY SOURCES

 

[Ironhold]

And the above links factor into this conversation how?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And the above links factor into this conversation how?

They are primary source texts that exist.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

What to say to Mormons - 3. Archaeology & the 'Book of Mormon'

 

[Ironhold]

They are primary source texts that exist.

Again... relevance?

Also, "posting random links without providing any commentary on what those links are" is virtually guaranteed to get people to not read them due to how often people do that to prank others or even get them to infect their own systems with malware.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Your kidding, I check the links myself, they are universities, historical societies, etc.,

 

[Ironhold]

Your kidding, I check the links myself, they are universities, historical societies, etc.,

You missed the point of what I was trying to say.

1. Posting random links doesn't tell anyone what those links are, let alone whether or not they directly relate to the conversation.

2. Few people trust random links anyway without someone explaining what they are, as bad things have happened in the past and domain names can be faked or spoofed.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

One who desires to be educated can follow them. Rather than being lazy try it.

 

[mmksparbud]

As threats and realities of violence drove the Mormons further west from New York to Ohio, Missouri, and then Illinois, survival and seeking new converts became their main focus. In 1844, vigilantes killed Smith in Illinois. His successor, Brigham Young, decided to head for the Great Basin, and the church's policy toward Native Americans became a vital matter. As his followers prepared to leave, Young admonished them to treat the American Indians fairly and take up the duty to convert them whenever possible.

The Mormons' interaction with Native Americans remained friendly until they clashed over limited resources. Young had purposely selected the arid Great Basin as the Latter-day Saints' new home due to its ruggedness. He wanted church members to grow closer as they struggled to build Zion, and he wanted outsiders to pass by on their way to greener locations. But Young's plan failed to take into consideration that Native Americans already were using the Great Basin's resources to capacity.

As Mormons poured into Salt Lake City, settlers appropriated rivers, streams, and springs. They fenced off productive land and used up raw materials such as pine-nut bearing trees. This caused no immediate conflict, but upon discovering their loss, members of the local Ute tribe demanded access to their resources and, when denied, simply did what they had long done and took what had been theirs.

As the Mormon population grew, tensions escalated. Infertile soil and a lack of water made it impossible to quickly create dense, sedentary settlements, so Young sent newcomers farther from Salt Lake City. Unwilling to change plans, he advised against provoking the Native Americans, but soon allowed ruthless punishment of any Indian caught stealing or harming a settler or his property.

In a short time, church leaders authorized attacking American Indians who refused to give up their resources without a fight. Church leaders argued that Native Americans who resisted were actually rejecting Christ's message and, by refusing, justified retribution.

Mormons and Native Americans: A Historical Overview | ONE

About ONE

The Online Nevada Encyclopedia is a project of Nevada Humanities, a publicly funded non-profit organization dedicated to engaging Nevadans in the intellectual, cultural, and civic life of the communities in which they live, and to preserving and making accessible Nevada’s rich and unique history and heritage.

I could not find any "anti-Mormon" statements by this organization.

 

[mmksparbud]

"Horrible Massacre of Emigrants!!" The Mountain Meadows Massacre in Public Discourse

This site has documents from both Mormon and Anti-Mormon sites about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. They try to present all documents from both sides.

 

[Theodore_Harris]

I don't see anything racist here. Im not LDS but that's pretty sound advice actually.