By Covenant or by GRACE?

[eph3Nine]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Scripture Reading: Ephesians 2:11-13[/font]

Israel was a nation blessed beyond measure. She was chosen being the fleshly seed of Abraham to be a light and testimony to the rest of the earth (Genesis 12:1-3). In order to carry out this task, God established many promises or covenants with her, signifying the special relationship between Him and this nation. Israel was God's "Covenant People," a relationship which the Gentiles did not have. In fact, for a Gentile to come to God at that time, he had to join himself to the Jews. This is illustrated in the Old Testament Scriptures; "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zechariah 8:23).

In today's text, Paul outlines the dilemma the Gentile was formerly in: "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:12).

There was simple no way around it, Gentiles did not have access to the blessing of the covenants except through Israel. But Israel herself failed to enter into these blessings because of her unbelief. How would God now bring salvation to the Gentiles? The answer is, not by covenant, but by grace.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9). We Gentiles should thank God for His matchless wisdom and grace!

 

[twoedge]

Eph3nine posted......

Israel was a nation blessed beyond measure. She was chosen being the fleshly seed of Abraham to be a light and testimony to the rest of the earth (Genesis 12:1-3). In order to carry out this task, God established many promises or covenants with her, signifying the special relationship between Him and this nation. Israel was God's "Covenant People," a relationship which the Gentiles did not have. In fact, for a Gentile to come to God at that time, he had to join himself to the Jews. This is illustrated in the Old Testament Scriptures; "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zechariah 8:23).

I have no problem with that except that true Israelites were not simply the natural, circumcised descendants ( including proselytes ) of Abraham but those that had these things plus the faith of their father Abraham.The same way men always have and will be saved because mans position before God never changes and Gods character never changes. As the scripture says....

' That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed ' ( Rom 9:8 ) scripture here actually directly contradicts you ( oh..sorry....Richard Burger ) 'She was chosen being the fleshly seed of Abraham. '
' Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise ( Gal 4:28 )
' just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. ( Gal3:6-9 )

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. ( Gal 3:29 )

They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. ( John 8:39 )


In today's text, Paul outlines the dilemma the Gentile was formerly in: "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:12).

Correct.....

There was simple no way around it, Gentiles did not have access to the blessing of the covenants except through Israel. But Israel herself failed to enter into these blessings because of her unbelief. How would God now bring salvation to the Gentiles? The answer is, not by covenant, but by grace.

Incorrect. Israel according to the flesh failed to enter the promise of God. But the true Israel did. ( As I have already explained ) Want some examples? Peter, Paul.....

Mary...Luke 1:46

Zacharias.... Luke 1:68

Simeon....Luke 2:29

Anna.....Luke 2:38

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Rahab, Gideon, Sampson, Jepthah, David, Barak, Samuel and the Prophets etc etc

Let's continue to vs's 13-20

' But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone..'

Now to answer E39's ( sorry...Richard Burgers ) question..

' How would God now bring salvation to the Gentiles? '

By including them in his covenant, breaking down the middle wall of separation creating one new man in Himself.

' Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. '

This is the mystery that was hidden, that the whole world would have access to God's covenant ' that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.' Just like He promised in the beginning. Gen 3:15

Eph3nine, if you are going to plagiarise at least steal good arguments and give credit to the author. Don't try and pass them off as your own.

If anyone is interested here's where she stole it from ( like most of her posts I suspect ). http://www.theologywebsite.com/newforum/viewtopic.php?p=6729&sid=3ebb267a842d61bd1bf2b9b2af576234

2E

 

[eph3Nine]

Not stealing anything here...but sharing information freely given on other websites for everyones edification.

Is YOUR purpose to edify and make sure others learn of the MYSTERY MESSAGE or just to cause trouble and cast aspersions on the motives of other believers? Since you disagree with dispensationalism...I would assume it is the latter.

Such behavior is frowned upon here...just a heads up.

We certainly dont mind if you wish to disagree, but many of us use information from mid acts websites as a common practice.

You were incorrect as to where it is from...and LIED! I wonder why? The website where I found this information is the following, and the authors name was NOT listed. http://www.parsonspublishingcompany.com/Gems%20of%20Grace%20Truth/by_covenant_or_by_grace.htm

So you see, you made a false accusation and tried to slander the honest motives of a fellow believer. I wonder why? Whenever we ASSUME, we make a "donkey" out of both YOU and ME. Get your facts straight before you come blasting away in here with accusations.

Now that YOUR integrity is in question, lets stick to the issues at hand and discuss "what saith the scriptures" and NOT engage in "character assassination". Cheap shots are fleshly in nature and don't help anyone find the truth.

Thank you.

 

[twoedge]

Is this frowned upon.........

' Why don't you just say that you REJECT the information given to OUR apostle by the RISEN Christ and be done with it. That would surely be more honest wouldn't it?

By the way, those who reject that information we are told to consider "enemies of the Cross", in scripture. Thanks for the heads up'



Are you going to argue my post??!

Of course my purpose is not to share your ' mystery '. In my opinion it is utter garbage.

I consider you someone who knows and loves Christ. A rarity these days. I think you have some wrong thinking on some doctrines though. If you would debate me, you would either learn that you are correct or mistaken. I've been wrong before and I may be now. But if I change my mind it must be on sound scriptural grounds. Hey, heaven will be choc-o-block full of people with bad doctrine, or, empty.

Post your own thoughts though. Cut and pasting won't help you or me.

See, I'm not so bad.


2E

P.S Do you ever sleep???!!

 

[eph3Nine]

Please see other threads for explanations as to the "enemies of the Cross" statement. ALL of us need to make sure that we dont fall into that category, as this information is addressed to professing BELIEVERS, NOT the unsaved. See Romans 16:17, 18 and Philippians 3:17-19 which are explained in detail in the thread called ENEMIES OF THE CROSS.

Due to your COMBATIVE entrance and attitude with me personally, I will not be addressing your concerns, out of respect for the edification of others and in the light of common courtesy. There are others here who can readily and swiftly and biblically address your concerns, altho we have covered most of this material in threads already existing right here. You might try reading them before readying yourself for COMBAT.

And keep in mind also...I AM NOT THE ENEMY!

Enjoy your time here. Grace and Peace to you.

 

[Dispy]

twoedge:
From the fall of Adam, and onward to Abram, man became exceedingly wicked. During this time, there were only Gentiles in the earth. Because these Gentiles became so wicked, and didn't keep God in their heart, God set them aside at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11). Even through these rebelleous time, God has always shown His grace by providing a means in which one could be saved/justified. It was by believing/doing, by faith, what God required at that point in time in human history.

In Genesis 12, we find that God made an unconditional covenant with Abram, that through his seed (Israel), all the familes (nations) of the earth would be blessed.

Without going into all the details, we know that God will not break His covenant with Isreal, but has added certain conditions to that covenant, such as circumcision and the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Their salvation/justification came about by doing the deed/works of the Law by FAITH. Those deeds/works, in themselves, did not have any saving value, however, their FAITH was demonstrated through those deed/works.

Through Israel, God had taken a people unto Himself. For one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew, and place themselves under the Laws of Moses. All of God's blessing to the world were to come through God's chosen people - Israel.

From the OT Scriptures we learn that God was to establish a throne (David's) upon the earth, and that One would sit upon that throne and rule forever. The promises to Abram back in Genesis 12 would be fulfilled. The Gentile nations will be blessed through Abram' seed - Israel.

When, according to OT prophesy, the time was right for the kingdom to be established upon the earth, God sent His Son into the world, and He was born in the city of Bethlehem. However, the King's subject rejected Him, and said "we will not have this man rule over us, crucify Him."

Without going into the details, we know that Israel, as a nation, rejected God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Therefore, it appears there was no way that the promise to Abram, back in Genesis 12, could be fulfilled.

However, God knew/knows, before the creation of the earth, the beginning from the end. He knew what Israel would do, and that they would reject His Son. He used that knowledge as a means to defeat satan, but kept His plans secret.

After the leaders of Israel rejected the Third Person of the Trinity, in the stoning of Stephen, God set the nation of Israel aside, raised up Saul/Paul in Acts 19, to usher in this dispensation of grace, and informed Peter in Acts 10 that Israel was now in a set aside condition.

We know that because God showed Peter, in a vision, that he was not longer to consider the Gentiles as "unclean." Why, because Isreal is now on equal footing with the Gentiles that were set aside back at the Tower of Babel. The Jews and Gentiles are now without distinction. Paul explains this in Romans 11:7-12, and in verse 32 he says "For God hath concluded them all (Jews and Gentiles) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

With the setting aside of Israel, as a nation, the covenants that God made with Israel, are now in limbo, and not in force. They will not be honored until Israel, as a nation accepts the One whom they have pierced, and recognize Him as their Messiah. The world is not being blessed through Israel as a nation. Our blessings of salvation/justification are not now bestowed upon us through the covenants to Isreal, but through the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelations of the mystery revealed to the Apostle Paul, and was kept secret since the world began. It is based upon our FAITH and trust in the Cross work of Christ. It is a free gift of God matchless GRACE, No deed/works of the Law by FAITH.

Can't you see that God took two believing "set aside" peoples and MADE the "one new man" of Eph.2 15, known now as "the Body of Christ." The Body of Christ is a "new creation,"

If the Body of Christ is grafted into Israel, and obatain Israel promises, then we will both end up in the kingdom that is to be established in the earth. However, my Bible teaches me that at a member of the Body of Christ, I have a home "eternal in the heavens." I am a Gentile with membership in the Body of Christ. I am not a Jew, or spiritual Jew.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[twoedge]

Thank you Dispy,

Dispy....From the fall of Adam, and onward to Abram, man became exceedingly wicked. During this time, there were only Gentiles in the earth. Because these Gentiles became so wicked, and didn't keep God in their heart, God set them aside at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11). Even through these rebellious time, God has always shown His grace by providing a means in which one could be saved/justified. It was by believing/doing, by faith, what God required at that point in time in human history.

I disagree. ( surprise, surprise! ) God's method of salvation ( In my opinion ) has always been the same because His character ( Holy, Just, Loving ) is absolute and unchangeable. Man's condition since the fall has also not changed. God's justice can only be satisfied by faith in the sacrificial death of Christ..

' for there is no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved ' Acts 4:12

Now I concede that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lacked an explicit knowledge of the cross but still had enough knowledge of Christ for his faith to lay hold of.

' The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads..' Gen 48:16...

' Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. John 8:56.....

' These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. ' Heb 11:13-16

They, like us desired a heavenly country, they saw the promises afar off. Notice also that Abel, Enoch and Noah etc who lived before Abraham are described as not receiving the promises. This, I think, would support my belief that the original promise in 3:15 is the same one that runs through the entire bible. Just as the sun shoots forth a few rays at day break and then slowly grows to it's full brightness so God's promise unfolds through Abraham, Moses, David, The Prophets until the appearing of Christ who is the fulfillment of all God's promises and the brightness of His glory. There is no difference between Isaac's obedience in laying his son on the alter and our obedience. It is our faith in God that allows us to be obedient and that same faith also saves us. They were not saved by faith plus obedience any more than we were. This would suggest that God could be partially appeased by works...

'..knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. ' Gal 2:16

I'm tired, more tomorrow.( especially about Abraham's 'seed' ) I have tried to address what you wrote point by point.( only your first point ) I think this is more profitable for us both and makes the argument easier to follow.

Humbly yours 2E

 

[billychum]

' But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Twoedge
How were they brought near before the crucifixtion?

 

[Dispy]

Thank you Dispy,

Dispy....From the fall of Adam, and onward to Abram, man became exceedingly wicked. During this time, there were only Gentiles in the earth. Because these Gentiles became so wicked, and didn't keep God in their heart, God set them aside at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11). Even through these rebellious time, God has always shown His grace by providing a means in which one could be saved/justified. It was by believing/doing, by faith, what God required at that point in time in human history.

I disagree. ( surprise, surprise! ) God's method of salvation ( In my opinion ) has always been the same because His character ( Holy, Just, Loving ) is absolute and unchangeable. Man's condition since the fall has also not changed. God's justice can only be satisfied by faith in the sacrificial death of Christ..

' for there is no other name under heaven given by which we must be saved ' Acts 4:12

Now I concede that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lacked an explicit knowledge of the cross but still had enough knowledge of Christ for his faith to lay hold of.

' The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads..' Gen 48:16...

' Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. John 8:56.....

' These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. ' Heb 11:13-16

They, like us desired a heavenly country, they saw the promises afar off. Notice also that Abel, Enoch and Noah etc who lived before Abraham are described as not receiving the promises. This, I think, would support my belief that the original promise in 3:15 is the same one that runs through the entire bible. Just as the sun shoots forth a few rays at day break and then slowly grows to it's full brightness so God's promise unfolds through Abraham, Moses, David, The Prophets until the appearing of Christ who is the fulfillment of all God's promises and the brightness of His glory. There is no difference between Isaac's obedience in laying his son on the alter and our obedience. It is our faith in God that allows us to be obedient and that same faith also saves us. They were not saved by faith plus obedience any more than we were. This would suggest that God could be partially appeased by works...

'..knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. ' Gal 2:16

I'm tired, more tomorrow.( especially about Abraham's 'seed' ) I have tried to address what you wrote point by point.( only your first point ) I think this is more profitable for us both and makes the argument easier to follow.

Humbly yours 2E

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but I would appreciate it if you would point out in what I posted that is in error. Then lets go from there.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[twoedge]

Twoedge
How were they brought near before the crucifixtion?

I don't really understand your question so my answer may be not what you were looking for.

Before the crucifiction they were ' brought near ' only by joining the nation of Israel, being circumcised and placing themselves under the law..

.' What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made......was the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not!....' Gal 3:19-21

2E

 

[twoedge]

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but I would appreciate it if you would point out in what I posted that is in error. Then lets go from there.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

In the section of your post that I addressed the problem I had was with the Faith/ works method of salvation. I hope I put forward a resonably sound argument that their has only ever been one method of salvation. We are saved in exactly the same way they were.
I'll continue tonight. But if you disagree please address my last post, not this one.

2E

 

[JM]

Paul explains to the Ephesians (2:11-16; 3:5-6) how the spiritual blessing of the unconditional promises made to Israel are extended to the believers in Christ today. He explains that the Church is enjoying the spiritual blessings of the unconditional covenants, not the material and physical benefits, since the middle partition (the Mosaic Law) was broken down at Christ’s death. “The physical promises still belong to Israel and will be fulfilled exclusively with Israel, especially those involving the land. However, all spiritual benefits [except for the perfect obedience aspect that is tied to the fulfillment of the Land Covenant] are now being shared by the Church. This is the Church’s relationship to these four unconditional covenants between God and Israel.”

http://www.conservativeonline.org/journals/02_07_journal/1998v2n7_id05.htm

 

[kenneth558]

It's "crucifixion" you guys

 

[twoedge]

http://www.conservativeonline.org/journals/02_07_journal/1998v2n7_id05.htm

S.P...Paul explains to the Ephesians (2:11-16; 3:5-6) how the spiritual blessing of the unconditional promises made to Israel are extended to the believers in Christ today.

Correct....

S.P.... He explains that the Church is enjoying the spiritual blessings of the unconditional covenants, not the material

Where in Ephesians does he make this distinction?

S.P...The physical promises still belong to Israel and will be fulfilled exclusively with Israel, especially those involving the land.

Hmmm......

' So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled '. Josh 21:43-45

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

2E

 

[Tractor1]

' So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled '. Josh 21:43-45

Whether one believes Israel possessed all the land is irrelevant. The Abrahamic covenant (Gen. 13:15; 17:8) provides for an everlasting possession of the land. So, what ever land Israel did possess, it wasn't everlasting or permanent.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Dispy]

twoedge:
I addressed the subject as it was presented by eph3Nine. You can respond to it in any manner you wish. I exprssed my views just as you expressed yours.

There has only been one way of salvation. It is purely a gift of God's grace, and can only be obtained by FAITH. It is by believing/doing, by FAITH. what God required at that point in time of human history. Adam, Able, Noah, and other, were not in the same covenant relationship as Abram was. The covenant relationship that the nation of Israel had, since Moses, contained 613 Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. Their salvation/justification was by doing, BY FAITH the deed/works of the Laws of Moses. They were not saved/justified by living BY FAITH by their conscience like Adam did, or offer a sacrifice in the same manner that Able did, or by building an ark as required by Noah. By the same token, Members of the Body of Christ are not in the same covenant relationship as the children of Israel were.

My Bible teaches me that Israel, as a nation is in a set aside condition. They are in the same position now as the Gentiles were back at the Tower of Babel. Their covenant promises are not in limbo, and awaiting future fulfillment, AFTER "..the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rm.11:25).

There is no longer a distinction between the Jew and Gentile. All mankind is now on equal footing, without distinction, in the sight of God. ALL those that put their FAITH and trust in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ as staill saved by God's grace through thier FAITH ALONE. Believer today do not have the promise of being an holy lnation of priests, and a place in an earthly kingdom, as Israel has. We are not saved/justified by just following our conscience, building a boat, counting the stars, or sacrificing our sons upon an altar. The final destination for every member of the Body of Christ is a home "eternal in the heavens."
We are not spiritual Israelites, and do not inherit her earthly promises.

I am outside of the earthly promises to Israel. However, I can experience salvation/justification in the same manner as the children of Israel did. By FAITH, through the FAITHFULNESS of Christ..

Believe what you wish, and if you believe what I posted is in error, just show me my error, from Scripture, and I PROMISE I will change my views.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh often, and Love the Lord!

 

[twoedge]

Whether one believes Israel possessed all the land is irrelevant. The Abrahamic covenant (Gen. 13:15; 17:8) provides for an everlasting possession of the land. So, what ever land Israel did possess, it wasn't everlasting or permanent.

In Christ,
Tracey

Do you believe in the new Heavens and the new Earth? What is God going to do with the land of Palestine ( Canaan )? Relocate it to the new Earth so as to keep His promise? The land is a lot more than just a piece of geography. It is typical for a place where God dwells with His children. It symbolises God's plan to restore to man what he had lost originally in Eden. As all things in the OT are shadows of a heavenly reality. Eg The Tabernacle, the Ark, the passover, circumcision, the feasts, the serpent on the pole, Jonah in the fish etc etc

Talking about Noah, Enoch, Abraham etc Hebrews tells us that ' they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country '. Heb 11:16

Abraham was the heir of the world

' For the promise that he would be heir of the world...' Rom 413

Jesus said that the meek ' shall inherit the Earth '

God is not concerned with real estate, but with the redemption of man and creation. He is concerned with restoring the relationship that was lost and once again dwelling amongst His people.

Who would have living in Palestine for eternity as their goal?

2E

 

[Tractor1]

Do you believe in the new Heavens and the new Earth? What is God going to do with the land of Palestine ( Canaan )? Relocate it to the new Earth so as to keep His promise? The land is a lot more than just a piece of geography. It is typical for a place where God dwells with His children. It symbolises God's plan to restore to man what he had lost originally in Eden. As all things in the OT are shadows of a heavenly reality. Eg The Tabernacle, the Ark, the passover, circumcision, the feasts, the serpent on the pole, Jonah in the fish etc etc

Talking about Noah, Enoch, Abraham etc Hebrews tells us that ' they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country '. Heb 11:16

Abraham was the heir of the world

' For the promise that he would be heir of the world...' Rom 413

Jesus said that the meek ' shall inherit the Earth '

God is not concerned with real estate, but with the redemption of man and creation. He is concerned with restoring the relationship that was lost and once again dwelling amongst His people.

Who would have living in Palestine for eternity as their goal?

2E

I think we'll accomplish little towards agreement since we interpret Scripture differently. It's my position there will be a literal fulfillment of the Palestinian covenant on earth, not in heaven. Scripture clearly designates a land area Israel is to possess (Gen. 15:18-21), and your approach (Heb. 11:8-16) actually changes the covenant's provisions, which Paul says can't take place (Gal. 3:15). One day Israel will turn in faith and God will fulfill literally His covenant commitments.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[twoedge]

Hi Tracey,

I think we'll accomplish little towards agreement since we interpret Scripture differently. It's my position there will be a literal fulfillment of the Palestinian covenant on earth, not in heaven. Scripture clearly designates a land area Israel is to possess (Gen. 15:18-21),

.....I didn't say that it was fulfilled, God did.

' So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled '. Josh 21:43-45

This verse says to me explicitly that the promises concerning possession of the land were fulfilled. I would be interested in your interpretation of this verse. There is no doubt that Israel was promised a particular parcel of land as an everlasting possession...

' Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.' Gen 17:8

But we could also say the same about circumcision

' He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. ' Gen 17:13,

but can anyone honestly believe that Jews will be circumcised throughout eternity?

We could also say the same about the duty of the priest regarding sacrifice.

' This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year." And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. ' Lev 16:34

Can anyone believe that the sacrifices will continue for eternity?

What about the Levitical priesthood?

' You shall anoint them, as you anointed their father, that they may minister to Me as priests; for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. ' Ex 40:15

Should we believe that the Levitical priesthood is eternal? Should we even believe that it should ever be continued in the light of this..

' Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. ' Heb 1:11-14

Are we to conclude that God breaks promises? Are we to say that if he doesn't continue these things in aliteral way that He ' actually changes the covenant's provisions' ? Or do we observe that these act as types and shadows of a greater reality and a greater fulfillment?

The land represents a greater reality namely our eternal dwelling place with God in our midst.

....and your approach (Heb. 11:8-16) actually changes the covenant's provisions,...

No it doesn't, it fulfills them. I would also be interested in your interpretaion of these verses andwhat they mean to you.
......which Paul says can't take place (Gal. 3:15).

Yes, and in the very next verse Paul expalins how the covenant was to be fulfilled....

' Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"who is Christ. ' Gal 3:16

The promises, as it explicitly says, were to Christ and were fulfilled in Him. Israel's inhertitence is a lot more valuble than a few square kilometres of desert. God has prepared a better place for us

' that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. '

and them.....

But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. Heb 11:16

..together.

2E

 

[GLJCA]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Scripture Reading: Ephesians 2:11-13[/font]

Israel was a nation blessed beyond measure. She was chosen being the fleshly seed of Abraham to be a light and testimony to the rest of the earth (Genesis 12:1-3). In order to carry out this task, God established many promises or covenants with her, signifying the special relationship between Him and this nation. Israel was God's "Covenant People," a relationship which the Gentiles did not have. In fact, for a Gentile to come to God at that time, he had to join himself to the Jews. This is illustrated in the Old Testament Scriptures; "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zechariah 8:23).

In today's text, Paul outlines the dilemma the Gentile was formerly in: "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:12).

There was simple no way around it, Gentiles did not have access to the blessing of the covenants except through Israel. But Israel herself failed to enter into these blessings because of her unbelief. How would God now bring salvation to the Gentiles? The answer is, not by covenant, but by grace.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8,9). We Gentiles should thank God for His matchless wisdom and grace!

Sadly all you can see in Eph 2:11-13 is what you want to see. You really need to read it again. Paul said that they "WERE" strangers to the covenants of promise. That means that because of Christ they were no longer strangers but fellowcitizens with the saints. They became a part of the Covenant people of God when they believed on Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

While it is true that we are saved by grace through faith, it is also true that when we believe we become a part of the New Covenant of God by being grafted into the olive tree. I realize that you can not believe that because it will mess up your doctrine but your doctrine is already messed up and this is Biblical. If your doctrine was not messed up then you could answer my questions and you wouldn't have to dodge them so much.

GLJCA