BUYING and SELLING in the TEMPLE

[Restin]

When Jesus was on this earth, He reprimanded those buying and selling in the temple. Question is....

In what ways do we see the buying and selling going on in the temple today?

How does 'buying and selling' affect the spirituality of the temple?

John 2:13-16
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. KJV

Appreciate your comments...Restin

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In what ways do we see the buying and selling going on in the temple today?

Hi Restin,

This is an interesting topic. However, I'm not sure that I have seen buying and selling in the church that I attend. What should I be looking for?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

there is no temple today.... there is a church, but a temple is not a church.... spirituality (whatever that might be) is not contained in a structure... Of course Paul suggests that our bodies are a temple, in which case the buying and selling concept takes on a different meaning.....

 

[Restin]

Hi Restin,

This is an interesting topic. However, I'm not sure that I have seen buying and selling in the church that I attend. What should I be looking for?

BFA

BFA...Anyone ever get up in front of the congregation - in church, and 'ask(s) for money?

Any preachers, and elders ask for money for building fund...or other church projects, while they are leading out in the 'temple'?

In my younger years, I grew up around SDA institutions. My dad was a building contractor and he was blessed (I should say 'cursed') with some of this work. Every sabbath the elders spent at least 10minutes, and sometimes more about raising money for building projects related to either the church building or the school building(s)!. Another 10 minutes was spent in raising money for the 'mission field'. Another 10 minutes was spent in 'collecting' all the 'tithes and offerings'.

If Jesus Christ were here today, I think He would say - again...

Luke 19:46
It is written, My house is the house of prayer:
but ye have made it a den of thieves. KJV

BFA...If you have none of this in your fellowship, that is wonderful... think I'd like to visit!...R

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA...Anyone ever get up in front of the congregation - in church, and 'ask(s) for money? Any preachers, and elders ask for money for building fund...or other church projects, while they are leading out in the 'temple'?

Yes. I've seen this both inside and outside of SDAism.

In my younger years, I grew up around SDA institutions. My dad was a building contractor and he was blessed (I should say 'cursed') with some of this work. Every sabbath the elders spent at least 10minutes, and sometimes more about raising money for building projects related to either the church building or the school building(s)!. Another 10 minutes was spent in raising money for the 'mission field'. Another 10 minutes was spent in 'collecting' all the 'tithes and offerings'.

I've seen this too. While I was still SDA, I worked as a director of worship for a Methodist Church. The Methodist Church that I served had an annual sermon series on financial integrity, including a strong emphasis on giving. At the end of the lengthy series, there was a pledge drive during which members would pledge how much money they planned to give during the coming year. This practice made me very uncomfortable.

When my wife and I left SDAism, we were excited to find a local church that does not ever pass an offering plate. However, although the topic of giving rarely comes up from the pulpit, I cannot say that it has never been discussed.

BFA.

..If you have none of this in your fellowship, that is wonderful... think I'd like to visit!...R

No, I'd imagine that the church I attend would not meet the criteria that you're looking for. I haven't found a church yet that never talks about giving.

Thanks for the clarification!

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

If a person provides opportunities to give from a church pulpit, has that person made the made the Father's house a house of merchandise? I must admit that this is a new idea for me.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

If a person provides opportunities to give from a church pulpit, has that person made the made the Father's house a house of merchandise? I must admit that this is a new idea for me.

BFA

that's the issue... today's church is not "just" a house of prayer... it is a conglomerate of things... likewise people didn't go to the temple to fellowship, though we engage in fellowship at church all the time... This is a comparison of apples and oranges... each serves a different purpose...

 

[StormyOne]

BFA...Anyone ever get up in front of the congregation - in church, and 'ask(s) for money?

Any preachers, and elders ask for money for building fund...or other church projects, while they are leading out in the 'temple'?

In my younger years, I grew up around SDA institutions. My dad was a building contractor and he was blessed (I should say 'cursed') with some of this work. Every sabbath the elders spent at least 10minutes, and sometimes more about raising money for building projects related to either the church building or the school building(s)!. Another 10 minutes was spent in raising money for the 'mission field'. Another 10 minutes was spent in 'collecting' all the 'tithes and offerings'.

If Jesus Christ were here today, I think He would say - again...

BFA...If you have none of this in your fellowship, that is wonderful... think I'd like to visit!...R

I don't think he would because today's church is a place of fellowship, testimony, interaction as well as prayer... the temple historically was not utilized for those things.....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

that's the issue... today's church is not "just" a house of prayer... it is a conglomerate of things... likewise people didn't go to the temple to fellowship, though we engage in fellowship at church all the time... This is a comparison of apples and oranges... each serves a different purpose...

I see your point.

Do you view this as a negative thing (i.e. the multi-purpose use of various spaces owned by a church)?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

I see your point.

Do you view this as a negative thing (i.e. the multi-purpose use of various spaces owned by a church)?

BFA

nope not at all.... though those who wish for church to be more "temple-like" will have problems with it.... At some churches you hear people saying that the members need to be more reverent, that it should be quiet in the main sanctuary, however, given the purpose of meeting I think that's difficult... The only problem I personally have with a church service is the amount to exaltation given to various people as opposed to making the focal point God for those moments set aside for corporate worship.... I mean giving out plaques, and awards, and recognizing this person for what they've done or that person to me takes away from worshiping God... there is a time for stuff like that, but I don't think its the 11 o clock hour....

 

[1whirlwind]

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


John 2:13-14 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

In the spiritual sense...the buying and selling of literal oxen, sheep and doves could mean more than the surface reading.....
​

Psalm 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

[Restin]

there is no temple today.... there is a church, but a temple is not a church.... spirituality (whatever that might be) is not contained in a structure... Of course Paul suggests that our bodies are a temple, in which case the buying and selling concept takes on a different meaning.....

Today, I see 'temple' and 'church', as meaning the same thing. Though, I agree not everyone sees as I do.

'Spiritually' there is meaning to 'temple' for the one who believes the Word of God. Jesus spoke of His body as 'this temple' in Jn 2:19,20 and Paul was given to say 'ye are the temple of God'. 1 Cor 3:16-17. So what is the significance of buying and selling in the temple? In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus told the rich man who desired to 'have eternal life' ... yes, he kept the law, but still 'lacked one thing'...

Luke 18:22
Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. KJV

In Rev 3:14-22, Look at the church of Laodicea...who says 'I am rich'...'I don't need anything'! This church, this temple does NOT KNOW it's own state of being, and how desperate it appears before the Judge of the Universe. It is given counsel to 'BUY'.... to be 'RICH'... but a different kind of buying and a different kind of riches...

Rev 3:18
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. KJV

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus told the rich man who desired to 'have eternal life' ... yes, he kept the law, but still 'lacked one thing'.....

The common view is that the rich man lacked this:

"Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor."
​

But perhaps he also lacked an understanding of this:

"None is good, save one, that is, God."
​

I suspect that Jesus was hoping to enlighten the rich man on this second point as well.

BFA

 

[Restin]

If a person provides opportunities to give from a church pulpit, has that person made the made the Father's house a house of merchandise? I must admit that this is a new idea for me.

BFA

BFA...it isn't for me to judg how each person, congregation, church, etc., deals with different aspects of buying and selling and giving. Judas criticized our Lord accepting the gift of 'ointment' ... but, what was his motive..?

John 12:4-6
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. KJV

God knows the motives, and judges the intents of the heart...
Even thinking about it, gives me to search my own heart and mind!...R

 

[StormyOne]

Today, I see 'temple' and 'church', as meaning the same thing. Though, I agree not everyone sees as I do.

'Spiritually' there is meaning to 'temple' for the one who believes the Word of God. Jesus spoke of His body as 'this temple' in Jn 2:19,20 and Paul was given to say 'ye are the temple of God'. 1 Cor 3:16-17. So what is the significance of buying and selling in the temple? In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus told the rich man who desired to 'have eternal life' ... yes, he kept the law, but still 'lacked one thing'...

In Rev 3:14-22, Look at the church of Laodicea...who says 'I am rich'...'I don't need anything'! This church, this temple does NOT KNOW it's own state of being, and how desperate it appears before the Judge of the Universe. It is given counsel to 'BUY'.... to be 'RICH'... but a different kind of buying and a different kind of riches...

I could tell by your posts that you do see them as the same thing... but they are not... historically people went to the temple to offer their sacrifices, the priests and high priests were there to take those sacrifices and conduct the ritual...

The church does not serve as a place to offer sacrifices, which is why I said we are comparing apples and oranges.... Jesus also told Nicodemus that he must be born again to have eternal life, Jesus told the woman at the well that she must drink water that only he could offer... so which is it?

Lastly the references in Revelation refer to whom in your opinion? A denomination? Or the total body of Christ regardless of denomination?

 

[Restin]

I've seen this too. While I was still SDA, I worked as a director of worship for a Methodist Church. The Methodist Church that I served had an annual sermon series on financial integrity, including a strong emphasis on giving. At the end of the lengthy series, there was a pledge drive during which members would pledge how much money they planned to give during the coming year. This practice made me very uncomfortable.

When my wife and I left SDAism, we were excited to find a local church that does not ever pass an offering plate. However, although the topic of giving rarely comes up from the pulpit, I cannot say that it has never been discussed.

BFA

I believe there is a place for giving...in addition to the widdow and her two mites (Mark 12:41-44) two other types are illustrated in...

Luke 18:10-14
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. KJV

God knows the motives and intentions...
BFA...appreciate the comments!

 

[Restin]

I don't think he would because today's church is a place of fellowship, testimony, interaction as well as prayer... the temple historically was not utilized for those things.....

Agreed...'historically' I don't think the church was utilized for money gathering!

 

[Restin]

Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Hi whirlwind,
Please note verse v16 (Rev 13:16) says this 'MARK' is on their 'right hand' or on their 'foreheads'. Interesting you bring this up as I had earlier today put Rev 13:16,17 and John 2:13-16 together...

John 2:13-14 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. KJV

There are two variations of buying and selling...

A. Cattle, sheep, oxen change hands with the 'changers' at the tables.
......this group Jesus makes 'cords' and 'drove them all OUT of the temple'

B. Those 'that sold doves'
......Jesus speaks, and by HIS VOICE, they are driven OUT of the temple!

Question is/does...
One group have the 'MARK' in their 'right hand'...and
One group have the 'MARK' in their 'forehead' ....?

In the spiritual sense...the buying and selling of literal oxen, sheep and doves could mean more than the surface reading.....

Psalm 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

... .... Yes, more to think about. Appreciate the scriptures....R

 

[Restin]

The common view is that the rich man lacked this:

"Sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor."
​

But perhaps he also lacked an understanding of this:

"None is good, save one, that is, God."
​

I suspect that Jesus was hoping to enlighten the rich man on this second point as well.

BFA

Yes, that and more...this rich man was dilligent to keep the outward form of law. The book of Job gives a similar lesson. Job was 'perfect' in his outward conduct. However, Job, in all his uprightness, was 'righteous in his own eyes' Job 32:1. So, was Jesus giving the 'rich man' to see his own 'self-righteousness'? We are not told...However, I hope he was given that understanding, and like Job, given repentance.

 

[Restin]

I could tell by your posts that you do see them as the same thing... but they are not... historically people went to the temple to offer their sacrifices, the priests and high priests were there to take those sacrifices and conduct the ritual...

The church does not serve as a place to offer sacrifices, which is why I said we are comparing apples and oranges.... Jesus also told Nicodemus that he must be born again to have eternal life, Jesus told the woman at the well that she must drink water that only he could offer... so which is it?

Lastly the references in Revelation refer to whom in your opinion? A denomination? Or the total body of Christ regardless of denomination?

Stormy...OK, we see things differently. I am not concerned about the actual, physical offering of sacrifices, rather what is/was their spiritual significance. And, if you think that is 'comparing apples, and oranges' to you that is what it is! To me, I see it otherwise! So, let's agree to disagree!

About Revelation...call it 'opinion' if you like...I will state what I 'believe'. I don't have any grudge against SDA organization, church, or fellowship. I pray that God will guide their leadership. I believe 'Laodicea' was one of the 7 churches historically, that has much spiritual significance for today's professed christian community, who live in the end times of this world's history....R